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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2003 : 11:05:04 [Permalink]
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NumboJumbo wrote:quote:
What would convince you lot that there is life after death?
I can't speak for the rest of "you lot," but my answer is at least implied in my prior post to this thread: evidence of life after death can only come through something which is unexplainable by any of a number of mundane, non-life-after-death theories. I have yet to see any such evidence. Nothing that has been presented to date makes sense only if there is life after death.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 12:47:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NumboJumbo
I have come to a line of reasoning where the Spiritualist movement was set up to exert an influence on its members. I say this, cos if it's all a fake then for me it seems a possible reason for setting up a religion (I know that's one of the main reasons why other religions are 'born')- money or michievousness just don't sit easily within the framework of Spiritualism. However to base your religion on fakery and forgery (which I feel can be detected more readily than arguing whether the Bible or Koran or whatever, is for real) still seems a precarious and precipitous route to take, if you want your 'believers' to believe in the very thing your faking. However as in jmcginn's post about his kung fu experience, it can happen.
My next question, if you really want this thread to continue, is:
What would convince you lot that there is life after death? Ok, we're getting a bit off topic now, but it's interesting from my point of view to see how your views have shaped the replies you have provided in this posting.
Thanks alot.
When I go through it (or not) or when a repeatable and measurable experiment that quantitatively proves the parameters of the afterlife. (Sort of contingent on proving a soul. Can't be done because it isn't measurable.)
Quite frankly, the afterlife is a theological construct to describe what happens to us after we die. Death and the egos urge to go on fuels such theological constructs. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 13:08:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would remind my right learned friend that it was an individual who classified the ants as part of his "calling" and not at the behest of the church. I believe my right learned friend is referring to Rev. Thomas Borgmeier (1892 - 1975), a Franciscian monk, who did his work in Rio De Janeiro. His work includes scientific observations of classes of ants and flies from at least 1920. By 1940, he was a well respected entimologist (per the Smithonian Institutue who lists him as an entimologist in their 1940-1949 field studies). He chose not to mix science and religion which proves that good science is possible from religious people.
Oh, picky, picky, picky!
Many thanks for the info. It's been a long time since I read about him and he's not in my modest library (which is mostly snake shit, anyway).
While it's true he was pretty much on his own hook, I've no doubt that the church at least condoned and probably enocuraged the activity. Otherwise, he'd probably not have been doing it. Or would heve left the church. The Catholics have a pretty rough history regarding science, but in latter years seem to be accepting at least some of reality. A pity that can't be said for other sects.
Life after death. Wow. There's so many versions of it. They range from the deceased doing little more than sitting around singing mindless praises and generally sucking up to the Lord; to mindless and eternal, moist debaucheries with a multitude of tender, young virgins (pant, lust, gasp). In any case, these ghosts are not coming here to visit with the likes of us, the charlatan Edward and the Spriitualist churchs, et al, to the contrary.
Life after death? Why should there be? I think it's simply that many, if not most people can't imagine an existance that fails to include the wonderful, irreplacable Me. Of course, that future existance must be Paradise for the devout and Torture for those the devout don't like or agree with, however honest and upright they might be. Of course, some people go for reincarnation, putting us all right, back here. If reincarnation should be true, I'd like to come back as........
A vulture! That way, no matter what idiot humans do to themselves, I'd never be without lunch. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 16:56:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
NumboJumbo wrote:What would convince you lot that there is life after death?
If I were to die, and were subsequently to discover that I was somehow still alive, then I would perhaps consider the idea. Short of that eventuality, I don't know what would convince me.  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2003 : 00:54:03 [Permalink]
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Well you lot certainly gave me some replies that I did not expect at all. I was expecting more along the lines of seeing your old Aunt Mabel appear right in front of you. Ho hum.
Anyway, here's something you might want to look or scoff at and it's certainly something I've never heard of before - an online Spiritualist service. If you go to the following link http://www.psychics-cafe.com/ and scroll down a bit, you'll see the announcement for it which is taking place 4th May at 8.30pm GMT. It even has transcripts of previous services where a medium has allegedly contacted the dead, live and online.
I've read some of the transcripts and the 2 meetings I went to certainly had none of that twaddle at the start of the meeting. Anyway I thought I'd post it as I figure it's probably the most convenient opportunity for you lot to experience what I experienced in a Spiritualist meeting. I would like to say that it doesn't come close to the feeling when a 'medium' directly points at someone and gives out info to that person without any 'fishing' beforehand. As it's online it also doesn't have the same 'feel' as a real live physical meeting.
Anyway, as I said before it's there for your edification whichever way you choose to view it ie. curiosity, skeptic, believer. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2003 : 10:34:50 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the link, Numbo!
Wow! What a circle-jerk! Those guys seem to pretty much cover the field on every-fantastical-thingie. And tragic Lady Di will never die, if they have anything to say about it.
The thing is, if any one of these clowns could actually do what they claim, they could easily relieve James Randi of the burden of his million dollars. Then, they could quit the grift. 
Neither Mr. Randi nor I see it happening any time soon.
There is no creature on earth more inquisitive than a skeptic. That gets us into trouble, now and then.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/03/2003 10:36:38 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2003 : 11:16:00 [Permalink]
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Life after death. This seems very important to the believers. But, I must ask: to what purpose? Why should we survive death and no other creature? What makes us so special?
We eat, defecate and sleep. We procreate every chance we get (except for that minority who thinks ahead and decides that enough is enough, and gets a vascetomy).
Due to our sapience, we create great structures, cross the seas, once a barrier, in a day (I have flown, but have no intention of ever doing so again, so I'm not sure how many hours it takes. Fuck a bunch of airplanes!), transport huge cargos, and communicate with lighting efficency. Does this make us so special that we should be singled out to beat death?
Nah. It's all in the twists and turns of evolution. We evolved sapience and the Pit Vipers evolved one of the most efficent, predatory hunting and feeding systems ever seen in land vertebrates. So what? Are either we or the Pit Vipers special? The ToE says, "No."
But then, after actually having had the privilege of living, we can go to oblivian satisfied; at least, that's my take on it. Beats hell out of eternal harp music and sucking up to a deity, does it not?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2003 : 16:52:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
(I have flown, but have no intention of ever doing so again, so I'm not sure how many hours it takes. Fuck a bunch of airplanes!)
Oh, come on, filthy. Slater says Koko will fly when they move to the Maui preserve. If a lowly gorilla can do it... |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2003 : 02:45:21 [Permalink]
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I'll give Koko my ticket. That way she can have 2 seats and lots of elbow room. Nothing but the best for her, and I've made a contribution. Good deal all the way around. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2003 : 14:29:53 [Permalink]
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Well, filthy, I'm sure she'll be glad of the elbow room! She needs a good bit of it, I imagine.  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Jayster
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2003 : 19:24:38 [Permalink]
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| True story, I paid ten bucks to a spiritual woman to tell me some interesting information. She looked around me with her eyes closed looking real goofy. She then said that she sees that my dad just passed away and he did. Then she said I see you just got out of a relationship and it's true my ex left me for a gay woman. Not that funny. And then she said that I'd meet the right one soon and to be patient. The whole ordeal lasted a couple minutes and she gave me a so called spiritual back rub which I surely didn't mind. Something there but some people just try to snake your money from you. She new my dad passed and that alone was quite convincing. |
Jayster |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 07:49:06 [Permalink]
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http://www.psychics-cafe.com/chat_news_service2.htm
LOL, Cold Reading 101, Come on NumboJumbo look at the transcript.
quote:
S+Annales > so we have rose...bobby...country conditions...weakness in legs
S+Annales > anyone take all that
Talk about fishing for hits :>, this after several rounds of limiting the hits down and still has 3 solid "hits" and several maybes to continue the fishing.
And even gives herself a good escape clause incase her picked target fails,
quote:
Ok keep listiening folks...but I feel I am with weary
She has already said this is a farm or country lady then gives us these wonderful gems of insight,
1. I feel this lady worked very hard when she was here
2. she is showing me her hands...they are very work worn used to a lot of manual work
3. she is bringing a child forward...
4. this child was not very old when it went to the spirit world
5. and I am feeling very emotional with this lady...there are tears
Then this sickening line, if this was someone close to weary I would be outraged at such destructive play on emotions.
"I believe this is the first time she has communicated and is so glad to be here"
Then these wonderful gems,
1. he is now indicating to me that somewhere around you at the moment
there is some decorating or house improvement going on
2. and is pointing and saying you had a light hearted argument about something to do with this - a difference of opinion
Then the sickening lie,
"he is laughing....he was there"
The old classic heart condition guess
"and I believe he passed to spirit with a chest condition...maybe heart"
More destructive lies,
"and he is saying....that he is very proud of you and your hubby"
"this gentleman is standing back now...so please take his love and the lady also"
Their beloved leader then steps up to bat to give an even better demonstration of cold reading. He even uses the good old "chest condition" line too.
I did notice something with these online "readings", they are actually even easier then those done with a group of people, here you don't even have to point to a section of the room, its everyone, and everyone is marking the hits with yes. Its like a game of 20 questions or something.
I think I will do a reading now, on what the medium will say. I am sensing that you will pick a common name of an older person, claim they worked a hard life, were jolly, and died from a chest condition or head injury. After you home in on your target you will fill them with lies on how this deceased loved one still loves them, forgives them, is proud of them, etc. My reading is done. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 07:50:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Jayster
True story, I paid ten bucks to a spiritual woman to tell me some interesting information. She looked around me with her eyes closed looking real goofy. She then said that she sees that my dad just passed away and he did. Then she said I see you just got out of a relationship and it's true my ex left me for a gay woman. Not that funny. And then she said that I'd meet the right one soon and to be patient. The whole ordeal lasted a couple minutes and she gave me a so called spiritual back rub which I surely didn't mind. Something there but some people just try to snake your money from you. She new my dad passed and that alone was quite convincing.
Jayster,
Take a look at your own role in the conversation. Did you indicate that your dad had passed by referring to him in the past tense? As for "just passed", that's pretty freaking generic. Everything your "psychic" saw is really generic. The goofy look crap is the dog and pony show to convince the mark.... I mean subject, that she is communing with the dead. She then started off with generalisms and moved on to whatever you talked about. Take a look at what you talked about before the reading. Take a look at your responses to the statements in the reading. The spiritualist isn't psychic, they are just observant.
You basically paid $10 for a back rub. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 13:30:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
You basically paid $10 for a back rub.
Cheap back rub. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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