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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 05/16/2003 : 20:49:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
The URL says it all and the story is pretty cool:
http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9909/18/gay.vulture.parents/
-- Henry
That bird story aside, I would like to know why people perhaps Americans more so, are obsessed with anything to do with homosexuality, gender differences and other related matters.
Why can't people just go about their own business and not worry about what someone else does? |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2003 : 04:00:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why can't people just go about their own business and not worry about what someone else does?
Man, you know we can't do that. Most of our lives are so damned boring that we take more interest in our neighbors' lives than our own. The allure is even greater when we have some socially taboo consideration.
It's like certain beaches we once attended. Those that frequent the beaches see little or nothing titilating in the experience. Those that gawk from the top of the dune find it enormously entertaining.
I'm reminded of the 1996 'Peter Meter' experiments from the University of Georgia. Perhaps, the homophobes were aroused more by the novelty than by their latent desires?
I guess we're all just voyeurs at heart. But, do ya think those two vultures give a flyin' F**k? Could their vulture buddies care less?
Now, Gay bird? That's definitely a bird of a different feather. What's next for our nature fettish--Lesbian larks?
Seriously, I did enjoy the story, but I'm having a hard time buying the Gay bird aspect. I guess I have a hard time saddling animals with human thought processes. I keep imagining Southern Decadence being attended by a bunch of ostriches in drag. Then, I start mentally tossing in a group of bluejays clad in leather fettish wear. Man, this is getting too weird!
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2003 : 23:01:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
I guess I have a hard time saddling animals with human thought processes.
That's the point! There are some birds that the male sits on the eggs, and other animals where so called gender rolls are so called reversed and the point is......so what. They are not Homo Sapiens. Man is a different animal. While all living things have some things in common they have other traits that aren't. Man seems to want to atribute human qualities to everything. It's not good or bad that we (humans) have ways of doing things or that other animals do things that others don't or do. It's just the way it is.
On the other hand, dogs (and probably other kinds of animals too) do reason so it's not exclusive to human thought. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 07:53:11 [Permalink]
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Snake,
One of the key reasons many are interested in homosexuality in nature is because of the agenda of certain political groups including of course the far conservative right including the Christian Coalition. They want to claim that homosexuality is simply a choice by the person so they can be immoral and promiscuous. Thus they can try and claim that it should be illegal and outlawed.
On the other side homosexuals want to claim that their homosexuality is entirely biological, or controlled by their genes, or at least mostly so. Thus they can say we are who we are so leave us the hell alone. They are claiming they have the right to be this way because it is natural.
Sadly both sides use psuedoscience and bogus claims to overstate their positions as is often the case when politics and emotions become involved. Expectedly the media follows right along without the slightest bit of research. Any biologists/geneticists/evolutionists worth his weight in sand could tell you that all complex behavioral traits are a combination of genetics and environment factors and are a result of numerous factors from both (numerous genes and numerous environmental factors including one's choices about their lifestyles).
Comparing it to another complex trait that has been of interest over the decades (mainly for issues of racism) intelligence , it is easy to see the similarities:
1. It is definite that genetics plays a huge role in my intelligence capabilities. Genes define the development of my brain and all of its properties.
2. It is definite that environmental factors also play a huge role in my intelligence. How was I raised, was I malnourished, was I educated well, etc..
3. Also I can make choices throughout my life that effect my intelligence (note that choices are just another environmental factor, its just that I am shaping my own environment in this case) such as no longer giving a damn and not trying to learn more.
In summary despite the claims of the two groups homosexuality is definitely a combination of genetics and environmental factors including the individuals choices.
Animal homosexuality (which is well documented in numerous species, including some who form life-long same sex bonds) is used to show that it is "natural" to be homosexual and it is not a deviant behavior. That is why the great interest in homosexual vultures and other species. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 23:32:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jmcginn
Animal homosexuality (which is well documented in numerous species, including some who form life-long same sex bonds) is used to show that it is "natural" to be homosexual and it is not a deviant behavior. That is why the great interest in homosexual vultures and other species.
Yes, I know all that but for anyone who didn't thank you for making all those points.
I still say, so what. It (meaning.....anything ((not just homosexuality)) in any situation) is what it is, and to 'coin a phrase'....."Let it be".
I think it's stupid to make a big deal about gays. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 03:13:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
....."Let it be".
Snake, I do agree with you in the sense that it does get extremely frustrating to hear this B.S. constantly. However, realistically, that just ain't gonna happen anytime soon. The rest of the world finds this subject too exciting.
Presently, and among social issues, this one may only be eclipsed by the abortion issue. Collectively, more people will probably read a story about gays in the military, gay marriage, gay parades or festivals, (especially if pics are included), or non-traditional families than any other current event story outside of war and multiple deaths. For Americans, it seems, violence is preferable to sex, but close enough that the story with pictures wins.
Yes, sometimes I get tired of hearing the same old crap dressed up as new crap, but that may be the price we pay for our freedom to love who we please.
Jmcginn, I understand the nature/nurture argument. However, it is a double edged sword. Many on the far right are more than happy to accept that same sex attraction is genetic. For these people, this simply means that it is a physical abnormality or defect that can be treated with drugs, psychotherapy and Exodus International.
Unfortunately, too many people that identify as hetero or homo like to paint the world in either black or white. They fail to see the many overlapping shades of gray. That is why I welcome all of the interest in these so called 'Gay' topics. I think this will go a long way in reducing the fear, hatred and animosity. Once the barriers of prejudice fall, then many will be surprised, I think, by what we discover about ourselves.
As far as homosexuality in the animal world is concerned, unless we can isolate the survival mechanisms of homosexual behavior in so many mammals, birds and even a few 'lower' forms, then the reference is worth little. Of course, lots of folks use this curiousity as a political wedge, but it now carries little weight in the real debate. That said, however, the bonobo is an exception. Their behavior and thought processes are similar enough to ours to be of consequence. But, that's just my humble opinion. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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