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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 05/29/2003 : 16:23:27
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President Bush Continues His Anal Raping of America
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=2&u=/nm/20030529/ts_nm/bush_taxes_report_dc_1
It's a shame that so many people work so hard to give their kids a better life than they had when, if things keep going the way they are, they will be handed a life of poverty. There is no way in hell we can deal with a 44 trillion dollar debt. Good luck finding a way although I'm sure Enron's acountants at Arthur Andersen might have tried.
I guess all I cans say is enjoy your paltry tax break while we slide into oblivion. Who is going to admit to their kids that the reason they have no health care or a job is because they wanted a cheap ass $400 tax break. Sure, for some Americans it's a lot more but they probably won't need to admit to anything other than greed. They won't though because denial usually works in strange ways such as blaming the poor when it was them that made them that way. Hey, it beats feeling guilty!
Anyway...this shit is just shameful. This tax break madness has to end and soon. All we are doing is building up a bigger and bigger burden for our children for the sake of damn near worthless "feel good" tax breaks.
Doesn't anyone out there wonder why we have a stimulus package that has an effect over 10 yeaars? It's as if the Bush administration is planning on a 10 year recession? Is this an admission that their policies are doomed to failure? I tend to think so. It's amusing(and sort of sad) to see economists fired from the Bush administration for telling how it is. Then they bring in some economist that tells them exactly what they want to hear no matter how controversial their theories are. And this serves us all how? Magic is not going to make us all better and it's a shame that these assholes will be long gone when the shit really does hit the fan.
And it will hit the fan if we keep going this way and politicians pander to Americans hungery for tax breaks we can't afford. It's amazing that consumer confidence is as high as it is with so many Americans living with maxed out credit cards, going month to month with virtually no savings account. Losing your job means potentially losing everything and as more and more Americans lose their jobs that is exactly what's going on.
Well I could go on and on but I will just end my little rant here so some others can add their comments. I just think people need to wake up and demand a little responsibility and restraint from their elected officials. A little truth might be nice once in a while, too although that's not a word that seems to be in the GW Bush dictionary.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 16:42:38 [Permalink]
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| Well, I don't have any kids, and I'm already homeless and jobless (by choice), so they can't hurt me much at all. It's all you other poor suckers out there, who're working your asses off to make someone else rich, that I feel sorry for. But I guess everyone can't be compleely free of ambition like I am. Oh well... |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 19:14:19 [Permalink]
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Dubya and his fellow Repubs have an unstated agenda. They plan on starving the government until it goes away. I tried that with the two cats my kids dragged home. It backfired, my wife cut my allowance and the kids stole money from my wallet for kitty food.
Will anachary be the only government that repubs tolerate? |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 22:56:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chainsaw
Dubya and his fellow Repubs have an unstated agenda. They plan on starving the government until it goes away. I tried that with the two cats my kids dragged home. It backfired, my wife cut my allowance and the kids stole money from my wallet for kitty food.
I'm a little confused here. Isn't it the Democrats who are ruining the government with taxing people to death? I think it's the Republicans that want smaller government which is a good thing.
@tomic said:
"I guess all I cans say is enjoy your paltry tax break while we slide into oblivion. Who is going to admit to their kids that the reason they have no health care or a job is because they wanted a cheap ass $400 tax break."
I'm a little confused. Shouldn't there be a bigger tax break so people will start spending and improve the economy. Then the kids will have health care because their parents will be able to afford it by having a job.
How is a tax break stopping kids from health care?.....don't tell me you expect the government to pay for all those children!
How about...people don't have kids until they can afford to care for them without government help. This isn't the Soviet Union, China or Cuba, yet.
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 23:17:25 [Permalink]
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| Last me checked, Snake, the Republicans controled both houses, and the White House, as well as busily packing the courts. As for 'Health Care,' America is paying for 'Universal Health Care' now, cost wise, but we aren't getting it. Concede they, Repubs, do repeat "Cut spending" often enough, while they continue to spend at record levels. There's a name for that... |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 03:13:53 [Permalink]
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| Smaller government, Snake? Have you looked at the size of the Pentagon? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 03:46:43 [Permalink]
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There's more than this....This tax cut will probably be much larger than the advertised 350 billion. That is just the limit set by the moderate Senate, I believe. The relief for the marriage penalty, and the child credits are provided for sunset just before the elections of 2004. To think that Congress is going to vote to discontinue this pandering to the middle class just before an election is naive at best. The swing voters love these little bribes.
The tax cuts on dividends and capital gains is scheduled to sunset in 2008--Another election year! If the repubs still control the legislature, it is unlikely they will choose to bite the hand that feeds them. Fat cats need lots of rats.
In other words, this tax cut may turn out to be more than what the president's original proposal called for. (For verification see the People for the American Way website. They have links to the original articles).
And, Atomic, I'll check it out and try to get back with you, but I believe that Social Security is not nearly as close to crashing and burning as many think, (from article). Mostly, this is one of those little misconceptions that the repubs, the dems, and the national corporate press have little interest in correcting. Apparently, an insolvent Social Security Admin is good fodder for turning over the largest pool of cash in the world to private interests to grab a few more dollars from the unwitting. (If I don't follow up on this, please remind me...Slap me in the back of the head or something).
Snake, another misconception that these same fellows have little interest in correcting is the assumption that repubs, or conservs or rightists are interested in smaller gov't. This is just simply campaign rhetoric and lies.
Ever since the bizaar ruling by the Big Court on Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad in 1886, without even the hint of a written opinion, the courts have treated corporations, or artificial entities, with the same rights as individuals, natural entities, but without the threat of criminal litigation. With this power in hand, and the privatizing of New Deal type programs, corporations have become collaborators in big gov't. Just look at the obvious corporate interests in big gov't. Our gov't pays out huge contracts for defense, space and infrastructure. We subsidize R&D for all sorts of things, including pharmaceuticals, which we pay for again in prescription costs. We subsidize family farmers even though the vast majority of the money ends up with agribusiness. We place tarriffs on manufactured goods because American producers have to pay out to the shareholders before they can modernize and upgrade facilities. Then we blame it on the high cost of American labor, even though transportation costs, foriegn tarriffs and duties, plus moving natural resources may cost far more than the American labor.
Now, big business wants to control our health care, our retirement and our education without the slightest bit of reliable evidence that they can do a better job and more cheaply than gov't. Remember these are the very same corporations that are already rooting in the trough of gov't subsidies and bail outs.
Today, the buying power of a corporation is far superior to PACs, unions, and especially individuals. All politicians are dependent on corporate dollars. A legislator from Louisiana, for instance, cannot get elected unless she/he is in bed with Big Oil, and willing to prostitute themselves to the tune of millions of dollars to pay the extortion demanded by professional sports franchises--And, I'm one of the biggest Saints and Hornets fans around!
Corporations need big gov't, and politicians are adicted to corporate cash.
Plus, no repub or democrap admin has ever shrunk gov't, or even seriously attempted. What they all have done was to increase the size of gov't. Furthermore, all of the tax cuts that I am aware of led to even larger large deficits, and were later followed by even more massive tax increases with the exception of the cut proposed by Kennedy, and he was a democreep. And, if I ever again hear it was somebody else's fault because they did or didn't do this or that other thing, I'm going to scream! And. I don't scream well. The people that say this shit are the same ones that try to preach personal responsibility to us all the time.
And, don't call be an f'ing socialist. I'm a capitalist, but I'm not a corporatist, (new word?). We need to bring this idea of corporations back to where the founding fathers intended it--At the mercy of the state legislators, not the other way around!
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 04:09:29 [Permalink]
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I almost forgot something. Whoever thought up the idea that giving our tax money to industry stimulates the economy? Where's the evidence? Where's the history? I haven't found it. What makes dollars invested by corporations any more prone to create jobs than dollars spent by gov't? The economy is a finite system. How do the same amount of dollars count more in the hands of corporations and the wealthy than in the hands of gov't, the middle class or, Bush forgive me, the poor? And, finally, what makes people believe that the wealthy and corporations even give a good flying fart about investing their new found booty in things that tend to circulate the cash around the entire economy?
Give a few bucks to a poor man, and he's gonna buy a bottle of cheap wine. When considering the entire economy, it sure beats hell outta getting another stock to pay a few more pennies to the minority of citizens that have enough money socked away in the market to see an appreciable gain.
But, that's my rant, and my opinion, as worthless as it seems... |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 10:58:02 [Permalink]
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Snake, someday in the future someone will have to pay for the debt we have been accumulating. This debt has been growing because the government offers people like you tax cuts to get your vote while at the same time increasing spending. During the 90s, when the Democrats ran at least the White House this was temporarily halted but since Bush has been in office and the GOP has run both the House and Senate the deficit has skyrocketed.
This debt will be left to your children and their children to pay and they will curse your name for letting it happen. It's not your money you are getting back. You are taking it from their future.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 17:57:45 [Permalink]
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Just out of curiosity, how much do Americans pay in taxes to warrant such drastic tax cuts. I was always under the impression that Americans paid less tax than Canadians. In my oppinion I do not mind paying taxes as long as I get descent services and benefits from the government.
I pay 25% of my wage weekly to the federal gov. = $256
Property taxes = $2500 per year
Case of beer 24 = $33.67
cigarettes carton = $56.00
gas = $2.35 per US gallon
7% PST on all purchases
8% GST on all goods and services.
Gas, Alcohol and Cigarettes are a few of the higher taxed items.
Do Americans pay more or less the same? I live in a smaller comunity taxes in larger citties are higher.
Benifits I am entitled to: Employment insurance benefits = 342.00 net per week.
Health Care. I have never paid for any health care issues. Perscriptions are paid by union insurance. Medical procedures paid by Government.
I would also be curious if other Canadians could tell me if they pay roughly the same as I do in different Provinces. I live in Ontario.
Thank you.
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How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2003 : 01:07:46 [Permalink]
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Rick, the amount of total federal taxes you pay amounts to well more than twice my federal income tax by percentage. I pay about 10% of my income in federal withholding taxes, and I believe this is a bit more than most pay. I have no shelters, no children of my own, a decent job, and I am married, which is called the marriage penalty because married couples without children pay a bit of a higher rate than a single. My wife works also, though her income is less than half of mine.
However, I do not know what your tax dollars buy you. Here, this federal withholding tax buys us basic gov't. I also pay a Social Security tax, and a medicare tax. The rates are about 5% and 1 to 2% respectively. Social Security is basically a pension in which everyone that lives to see it can collect a paltry sum to help in the later years, but this is not enough for most to live from exclusively, though many do. Medicare tax is a medical safety net which I may never use, unless my insurance company dumps me or jacks my rates to astronomical levels when I retire.
In the state of Louisiana, we have a state income tax, also. This amounts to about 3% for me, (like all income taxes, rates vary for several reasons). Again, this buys nothing more than basic gov't.
So, taxes withheld from my wages is about 20% total. Of course, there are other methods of collecting our cash. We have fuel taxes, (about $1.40 per gallon in US dollars, and I don't know what percentage is actual road usage tax, and local taxes). Most places have a sales tax which varies from town to town, county to county, or maybe statewide. I pay a Parrish, (called a county in most places), sales tax of 8% on all purchases. And, of course, we have property taxes which also vary locally. We have a state property tax, but most homeowners qualify for a homestead exemption, myself included. We have no Parrish property tax, but I do pay a property tax of about $120.00 per year to the city. This covers basic services like trash collection, police and fire.
Finally, we have the taxes they assess on our utility bills, and only an accountant with training in that field can figure it out! So, I'd say, all in all, you probably pay a bit more than me, but not that much.
As for beer, the cheap stuff starts at about $12.00 a case, or 24 cans. Imports can run as high as $30.00 per case.
The last time I bought cigarettes was about four years ago. Then, I smoked Camels, and they cost between $25.00 and $30.00 per carton. I do not know how much they are now, nor how much of the cost is tax.
Locally and every few years, we hear from concerned citizens about how our library, or our parks and recreation facilities are falling apart. They write the paper. They scream in city council meetings. They send out fliers. The city council gives in, and proposes a tax to pay for the work. (They only propose a bond issue when they're serious). They put the tax up on a referendum in the next election. The first five words are invariably, "A tax will be levied..." Even the good citizens that screamed loudest for the upgrades never read beyond those first five words. I have never seen a referendum introducing a new tax garner more than 20 to 25% of the vote.
I think the problem in the US is that we tend to think that Americans are expected to be very adverse to any type of taxation. It all goes back to some crates of tea on a boat docked in the Boston harbor two and a quarter centuries ago. The Boston Tea Party was intended to protest unfair taxation levied on the colonists by the corporation representing King George's interests. Now, most Americans just think, "Ooh, tax bad, me no pay," simply because a bunch of rowdy colonists left their local drinking establishment disguised very poorly as Native Americans and tried to brew a very large cup of tea...
Wecome to America! |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2003 : 01:47:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Snake, another misconception that these same fellows have little interest in correcting is the assumption that repubs, or conservs or rightists are interested in smaller gov't. This is just simply campaign rhetoric and lies.
I don't know anything about the Republican party, I belive in my party and that they do want smaller government and that it will be better for all of us. BTW, I do think you are right, and that both major parties lie. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2003 : 01:56:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Snake, someday in the future someone will have to pay for the debt we have been accumulating. This debt has been growing because the government offers people like you tax cuts to get your vote while at the same time increasing spending. During the 90s, when the Democrats ran at least the White House this was temporarily halted but since Bush has been in office and the GOP has run both the House and Senate the deficit has skyrocketed.@tomic
I hear both sides blame each other. But you are right, if I might paraphrase you....it's a mess, in any case.
No one 'buys' my vote. However, something has to be done and IMO, less government is better government. Some generation will have to 'bit the bullet'. But we need a more oganized way of doing things, it's only going to get worse.
I sure hope Gov. Gray Davis gets out (here in California) and Larry Elder gets in. If he does, perhaps the rest of the country will hear his logic and take note and he could be president someday. I think we'd have a chance then to change for the better. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2003 : 06:35:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by rickm
Just out of curiosity, how much do Americans pay in taxes to warrant such drastic tax cuts. I was always under the impression that Americans paid less tax than Canadians. In my oppinion I do not mind paying taxes as long as I get descent services and benefits from the government.
I pay 25% of my wage weekly to the federal gov. = $256
Property taxes = $2500 per year
Case of beer 24 = $33.67
cigarettes carton = $56.00
gas = $2.35 per US gallon
7% PST on all purchases
8% GST on all goods and services.
Gas, Alcohol and Cigarettes are a few of the higher taxed items.
Do Americans pay more or less the same? I live in a smaller comunity taxes in larger citties are higher.
Benifits I am entitled to: Employment insurance benefits = 342.00 net per week.
Health Care. I have never paid for any health care issues. Perscriptions are paid by union insurance. Medical procedures paid by Government.
I would also be curious if other Canadians could tell me if they pay roughly the same as I do in different Provinces. I live in Ontario.
Thank you.
In Australia I pay 46 cents in the dollar income tax....yep read the figures and weep
Propery Taxes around 4 grand a year
Slab of beer (24), 32 dollars
Petrol fluctuates between 80c and $1.05 per litre
10% GST on top of my income tax |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2003 : 07:56:34 [Permalink]
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If you want to stay at the best hotel, you expect to pay a higher fee.
If you want to live in an advanced society, you have to pay a higher price.
People erroneously think we got to be the most developed nation due to private investment. That is not true.
Just a partial list off the top of my head:
The Louisana Purchase was a government investment. Can you list the benefits?
The west was tamed by the railroads, courtsey of government investment. Which in turn spun alot of private riches.
The interstate highway system was a government investment which changed the face of regional commerce and spun alot of private riches.
The space program. Do you know the items in your posession today that came from this investment?
Another point of ecomomic history to consider.
Society's great leaps forward in standard of living came at times that wealth flowed to the masses and was less concentrated.
Societies suffered discontent and violence when wealth became concentrated at the top.
The current trend, accelerated by repub policies historically does not bode well for us. |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2003 : 08:23:41 [Permalink]
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| Well said Chainsaw. Our freedoms did not come from attacking other countries, either. Our freedoms came from people who risked their lives demanding those freedoms from their government and the companies that run that government. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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