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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
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USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2001 : 07:46:51 [Permalink]
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My understanding of Thornhill/Palmer's thesis is that males of any species that propagates sexually should have the same sort of biological tendency toward rape that they postulate in human males.
I would think that only males in specific circumstances would find a violation of female mate choice reproductively adaptive. I'll think upon this further, but it seems that emperor penguins and any other species in which the males are crucial to child-rearing could not possibly benefit from such behavior, since they require male/female cooperation to reproduce effectively. Also, any species in which the females are as physically formidable than males (or more so) would find forced reproduction a rather risky behavior.
I would tend to agree with you, tergiversant..."in specific circumstances"...yet Thornhill/Palmer suggest (and remember, I read this book 18 months ago and don't have a copy to refer to) that all men are potential rapists, not just in special circumstances. But they don't seem to feel the same way wrt other species.
It is a question of what is implied by potentiality in this case. One could as claim that all humans are potential Nazis, or Gandhi's for that matter. It is a question of what people might be capable of under certain circumstances with certain training.
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Also, nothing is said (as far as I recall) regarding the number of male-on-male rapes, instances where females force males to copulate, the times when males rape then kill their victims, or the vast number of events in which males rape females out of child-bearing age (either the very young or post-menopausal women). All of these would play against the authors' contention that rape is a vehicle for procreation.
Indeed they would, but only in an inductive argument. If fertile young women are very disproportionally victimized that would weigh in the authors favor despite the existence of the various counterexamples you mention above.
Inductive vs deductive? I don't follow why you're making that distinction here.
In a deductive argument a single counterexample would invalidate a premise, not so in an inductive or probabilistic argument. It is the difference between saying "men have a strong tendency towards aggression" and "all men are aggressive."
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
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USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2001 : 21:47:40 [Permalink]
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quote: It is a question of what is implied by potentiality in this case. One could as claim that all humans are potential Nazis, or Gandhi's for that matter. It is a question of what people might be capable of under certain circumstances with certain training.
We all have the potential for all types of behavior. For example, if my family and I were starving, I would not have a problem with breaking the neck of the person who stood between me and a loaf of bread. I have the physical size and strength to do this and yet I don't. My family is not starving. I don't even think about commiting any type of violent act. There are societal norms of behavior that have been transmitted to me over many generations. May I suggest >10,000 years worth. In a community relationship, one who does not conform is ejected from the community. In pack animals such as wolves and possibly early humans, this means almost certain death. In our societies, rape is unacceptable behavior and is punishable by long term incarceration. This knowlege would mitigate against the argument for rape increasing reproductive fitness.
Greg.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
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USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 08:59:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
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It is a question of what is implied by potentiality in this case. One could as claim that all humans are potential Nazis, or Gandhi's for that matter. It is a question of what people might be capable of under certain circumstances with certain training.
We all have the potential for all types of behavior. For example, if my family and I were starving, I would not have a problem with breaking the neck of the person who stood between me and a loaf of bread. I have the physical size and strength to do this and yet I don't. My family is not starving. I don't even think about committing any type of violent act.
Good for you. Wish I could say the same, but for me the 30-min commute gives ample opportunity for murderous rage. 
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There are societal norms of behavior that have been transmitted to me over many generations. May I suggest >10,000 years worth. In a community relationship, one who does not conform is ejected from the community. In pack animals such as wolves and possibly early humans, this means almost certain death. In our societies, rape is unacceptable behavior and is punishable by long-term incarceration. This knowledge would [militate] against the argument for rape increasing reproductive fitness.
Little to nothing of the last 10,000 years has had a significant effect on the genetic makeup of homo sapiens, including its pre-programmed instinctual psychological responses. This is because the species stabilized around 50,000 years ago, as advancing technology and increasingly large populations buffered the effects of natural selection pressures.
More generally, culture is far more flexible and changeable than neurological makeup, and hence the former cannot effectively exert natural selection pressures on the latter. It is the consensus of most physical anthropologists and evolutionary researchers that human culture (including behavioral norms) has not driven any specific phenotypic adaptations in the human brain.
However, proto-cultural pack behavior (such as leadership and followership) is evident in humans, wolves, and other predatory pack animals. No doubt such behaviors give rise to our ability to accept and live by explicitly formulated cultural norms. I imagine that for proto-cultural hunter-gatherers, there would have been strong pressures against rape, in that it has always been a physically risky behavior. Everyone closely genetically tied to the victim (herself, her mate, her kinsmen) would likely attempt physical retaliation, not because of cultural norms, but because it is evolutionary adaptive for them to be enraged by such a denial of female mate choice. To this day, we are most especially reflexively enraged at rapes perpetrated upon those close to us.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
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USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2001 : 21:28:15 [Permalink]
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Rape is a reversion to a primitive (lower) state. Animals do it all of the time. Human beings should be able to control such impulses. There are higher impulses (such as love, affection, and fascination with the *other*).
Rape is always assaultive. It is not caused by lust or sexual attraction. Rape is an attempt to overpower and hurt some other person male or female (because both sexes can be raped).
Lock rapists up, keep them sedated, and throw away the key. Rapists are angry and hateful towards other human beings, particularly toward the objects of their rape.
ljbrs
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
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USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2001 : 17:09:22 [Permalink]
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quote: Rape is always assaultive. It is not caused by lust or sexual attraction. Rape is an attempt to overpower and hurt some other person male or female (because both sexes can be raped).
ljbrs,
I think that you are making the same error that I originally did in this thread. That is, considering only serial rapists and killers. These people are obviously deviants. What is being discussed here is aquaintence rape (popularly known as "date rape") which is by far the most common type. This type of rape is commited by "normal" people.
Tergiversant,
FYI I'm reading a couple of academic papers on rape that I fished off of the web. It takes a while for me to finish though since fortunately, I have a life outside of this forum (I have to learn to stick to one subject at a time). I'll continue this thread if you want to after I'm done.
Greg.
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Trish
SFN Addict
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USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2001 : 19:08:30 [Permalink]
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Please consider this is my opinion of the date rape issue.
Date Rape: Is still an act of violence. For far too long this has been considered a societially accepted norm: It's just boys being boys. Until just recently, date rape has not been considered rape by the vast majority of public officials. Anytime a sentient being says no and another does not respect that decision that is an act of violence commited against the one that says no.
One would presume the impression that thinking reasoning creatures would have it within themselves to respect the rights and liberteries of another. However, previous patriarchal societal norms have indicated that it is acceptable for men to have many sexual partners while women must remain monogomus or be considered a slut, whore or any other of the number of derogatory terms employed to keep women in line and remain chaste. This is a preconceived notion placed on the woman by society. While there were considerable reasons for this in the past - i.e. lack of effective birth control measures - that is no longer an issue. Sexual encounters should, for both participants (or more) be a pleasureable encounter.
That an individual would consider forcing another pleasurable is/should be beyond the acceptable norms of society. To attempt to justify the forcing of a sentient thinking, reasoning being is beyond the absurd. My problem with the notion of rape having an evolutionary function is that it *seems* like justification for thinking, reasoning beings to take no personal responsibility for their actions. There is no longer a sound reason to suggest an evolutionary causality for the sexual violation of an individual. That ceased to exist when humankind came to recognize in itself an amount of self awareness. As humankind has evolved into a thinking and reasoning species capable of conceptual realization the requirement for rape as an effective means for propogation of the species is no longer an acceptable alternative.
To suggest that a reasoning being requires justification of rape is to suggest that the reasoning being is incapable of reason. Thinking has taken a higher precedence in our society than random propogation. The suggestion that an individual can not find a willing partner and therefore must force themselve on another is, in the extreme, absurd.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
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USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 12:04:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rape is always assaultive. It is not caused by lust or sexual attraction. Rape is an attempt to overpower and hurt some other person male or female (because both sexes can be raped).
Rapists are angry and hateful towards other human beings, particularly toward the objects of their rape.
What evidence do you offer in support of these bold claims? I'm surprised that skeptics would unblinkingly accept these popular notions.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
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USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 12:30:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
To attempt to justify the forcing of a sentient thinking, reasoning being is beyond the absurd.
Absolutely. Who suggested justification?
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My problem with the notion of rape having an evolutionary function is that it *seems* like justification for thinking, reasoning beings to take no personal responsibility for their actions.
It only seems like a justification to those with a very poorly developed sense of moral reasoning. Why should scientists withhold information to protect such people?
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There is no longer a sound reason to suggest an evolutionary causality for the sexual violation of an individual. That ceased to exist when humankind came to recognize in itself an amount of self-awareness.
Humans to this very day are driven by all manner of evolutionarily adapted appetites, including those for food and sex. Reason is merely a means to achieve such ends.
As to “sound reasons,” I've already given them. The correlation between rape victimization and female fertility is a prime example.
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As humankind has evolved into a thinking and reasoning species capable of conceptual realization the requirement for rape as an effective means for propagation of the species is no longer an acceptable alternative.
Evolutionary drives and appetites have absolutely nothing to do with individual conceptual realization. It is not like we think to ourselves, “Being hungry (or horny) will increase my reproductive fitness.”
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To suggest that a reasoning being requires justification of rape is to suggest that the reasoning being is incapable of reason. Thinking has taken a higher precedence in our society than random propagation.
I never suggested justification of any sort, you did. I have repeatedly vilified the idea that science yields any moral insights.
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The suggestion that an individual can not find a willing partner and therefore must force themselves on another is, in the extreme, absurd.
Not at all -- ask any nerd. Regardless, this particular “suggestion” is not a premise in the evolutionary argument. The premise involves increasing one's reproductive fitness somehow, not necessarily from zero as implied above.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
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USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 15:25:05 [Permalink]
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Tergiversant,
It is intuitively obvious that a strong 'sex drive' improves ones fitness for reproduction. This, it seems is all that is necessary from evolution. Forced sex is a situational thing. Rape will only occur when a man is in a position to either overpower or otherwise neutralize a woman's defense (alcohol, drugs, etc.). Contrast this with certain animals, spiders for example. Male spiders are much smaller than the females and copulate at great personal risk. In higher animals, dogs for example, forced sex does not occur and the female controls reproduction even though the males are larger.
The papers that I am now perusing illustrate some cultural 'mindsets' shared by rapists to a larger degree than non-rapists. Some of these are;
1. Belief in the myth of necessary adversarial relationships between the sexes.
2. Belief that sex is a commodity to be accumulated.
3. Acceptance of interpersonal violence in general.
4. Acceptance of rape mythology (women lie about rape, some women want it or "have it comming", no really means yes, etc.).
5. Belief in the absolute dominance of men.
It appears that a strong sexual drive (normal in young men), in combination with such culturally conditioned beliefs as above, are sufficient as a cause of rape.
Greg.
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@tomic
Administrator
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USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 15:46:35 [Permalink]
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quote: Rape is always assaultive. It is not caused by lust or sexual attraction. Rape is an attempt to overpower and hurt some other person male or female (because both sexes can be raped).
Rapists are angry and hateful towards other human beings, particularly toward the objects of their rape.
I have to agree that this statement sounds more like rhetoric than truth. It could easily apply, as noted above, to a serial rapist but I can't see it applying to most cases no matter how horrible it is.
@tomic
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
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USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 16:56:39 [Permalink]
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Rape would not be rape if it were WITH CONSENT. Without consent, it is not very nice for the person being raped. Consensual sex is another thing. If it is consensual, then it is not rape.
No, I cannot call rapists true human beings. Forced sex is just really revolting. Men who cannot get sex any other way are forced to take it this way. There is absolutely no excuse for it. Perhaps it is a throwback to our evolutionary past. Animals do it all of the time. That does not make it all right for humans. I cannot think of any justification for this disgusting act. It happens to men, too. And it is very dangerous (bringing venereal diseases (etc.) which cannot be cured with antibiotics).
ljbrs
Perfection Is a State of Growth... |
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@tomic
Administrator
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USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 17:06:11 [Permalink]
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No, there is definately no excuse or justification for it.
However, do not assume that a rapist cannot obtain sex some other way. A man may be too drunk to know when to stop or something like that. <---This does not justify it, but it also does not therefore mean it's a hate crime etc.
Obviously there is a lack of respect at the very least.
But I cannot go along with a statement that rape has nothing to do with lust or sexual attraction. What's more, how could someone that has never committed an act of rape really know what's in the mind of a rapist. It's not good enough to look at the act itself and make up what one thinks is the cause.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
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USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 17:29:13 [Permalink]
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Now that Viagra is on the scene, the danger of rape probably is increasing exponentially...
ljbrs  
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
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USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2001 : 18:04:59 [Permalink]
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quote: What's more, how could someone that has never committed an act of rape really know what's in the mind of a rapist.
Actually, in some of the work that I have recently read the information is obtained from college students. They were asked about various attitudes regarding sex and also asked about their sexual activity. The ones who admitted activity that would legally be considered rape freely admitted it with no indication that they thought that they were at all committing rape. The attitudes that I mentioned in my earlier post were very strong in these individuals. I think it simply shows a complete disregard for basic human dignity. The key I think is number 2 on my list. In some young male groups, the dynamic is such that accumulation of sexual "conquests" become a game. Let's see who can get the most. IMHO, this is dominance behavior. Trying to lead the group. When you have the normal strong sexual drive that young men exhibit along with dominance behavior and superimpose that onto a group that accepts certain attitudes about sex and women, that's when rape occurs.
Greg.
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
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USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2001 : 04:54:58 [Permalink]
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Hey Greg,
quote:
It is intuitively obvious that a strong 'sex drive' improves ones fitness for reproduction. This, it seems is all that is necessary from evolution. Forced sex is a situational thing. Rape will only occur when a man is in a position to either overpower or otherwise neutralize a woman's defense (alcohol, drugs, etc.). Contrast this with certain animals, spiders for example. Male spiders are much smaller than the females and copulate at great personal risk. In higher animals, dogs for example, forced sex does not occur and the female controls reproduction even though the males are larger.
The papers that I am now perusing illustrate some cultural 'mindsets' shared by rapists to a larger degree than non-rapists. Some of these are;
1. Belief in the myth of necessary adversarial relationships between the sexes. 2. Belief that sex is a commodity to be accumulated. 3. Acceptance of interpersonal violence in general. 4. Acceptance of rape mythology (women lie about rape, some women want it or "have it coming", no really means yes, etc.). 5. Belief in the absolute dominance of men.
Sanday's studies in the cultural anthropology of rape certainly indicated that 3-5 are strong predictors of rape, especially (3). I brook no disagreement with the claim that these psychological factors usually play a role in rape in our society in particular, however…
quote:
It appears that a strong sexual drive (normal in young men), in combination with such culturally conditioned beliefs as above, are sufficient as a cause of rape.
While it seems we agree that rape is most often a sexual act (a major controversy in and of itself) but I disagree that the above factors are sufficient causes. This is because studies have shown time and again that some of the very best predictors of physical aggression are genetic and biochemical (Y chromosomes and testosterone levels to be specific). We simply would not have people who accept (3) as a lifestyle without these biological factors.
I would say that we know that natural sex and aggression drives are in play here, the sticky question is whether evolution has conspired to facilitate their combination in human males.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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