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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2005 : 20:05:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
I might say something along the lines of "do you think that many could be self-deluded all at the same place about the same thing," but I know how idiotic people can be sometimes (after all, look at the lyrics to the song "Skater Boy").
Indeed...
Just go into any Southern Baptist protestant church, and you'll see hoards of them. Any Christian church really, but those are an exceptionally bad lot. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 21:31:19 [Permalink]
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Interesting. You all seem to be extremely atheist. And they say stereotypes aren't true. Anyways...
quote:
And by "video evidence," is there nothing better than those simple parlor tricks shown?
Can you do a "simple parlor trick" to make it look like you're telekinetically moving a non-magnetic coin under a glass cover? Besides, I said evidence, not proof. There is a difference.
quote:
I don't think you understand what self-deception means.
I understand exactly what it means. However, I have a hard time believing that someone could become extremely delusional, then suddenly stop being delusional just long enough to fake a video, and finally return to being delusional again, believing they actually performed telekinesis in their own faked video. Assuming that they aren't delusional, but instead liars, they would have to be incredibly dedicated liars who don't mind spending money and loads of time on their lie, with no reward other than the thought of people believing their lie.
Now let's assume they are delusional, and all reports of psi are delusionals. Does it matter if they really perform these feats, as long they are all happy? They're not making any money off it, and they aren't forcing anyone into practicing. IIRC, they don't even advertise. It's all through word of mouth. |
| Edited by - Eldibs on 12/07/2005 21:32:05 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 21:45:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
Can you do a "simple parlor trick" to make it look like you're telekinetically moving a non-magnetic coin under a glass cover?
In a video of such poor quality? Yes, quite easily.quote:
Besides, I said evidence, not proof. There is a difference.
Oh, yes, I know there's a difference. Videos like those on that site are very poor evidence that anything psionic is going on. There are zero controls, they're all in extreme close-up, they're self-produced.quote:
I understand exactly what it means. However, I have a hard time believing that someone could become extremely delusional, then suddenly stop being delusional just long enough to fake a video, and finally return to being delusional again, believing they actually performed telekinesis in their own faked video.
People do this, all the time. They rationalize the tricks they do as not being tricks, but instead "necessary" for the "effects" to become "apparent."quote:
Assuming that they aren't delusional, but instead liars, they would have to be incredibly dedicated liars who don't mind spending money and loads of time on their lie, with no reward other than the thought of people believing their lie.
With "Ads by Goooooogle" on the site, the idea that there is "no reward" is ludicrous. With people like Jim Jones and David Koresh in the world, the idea that there is "no reward" is simply absurd.quote:
Now let's assume they are delusional, and all reports of psi are delusionals. Does it matter if they really perform these feats, as long they are all happy? They're not making any money off it, and they aren't forcing anyone into practicing. IIRC, they don't even advertise. It's all through word of mouth.
"They're not making any money off it" is a part of your delusion. You simply ignore the paid ads on the site. Or you'll claim that they don't make a profit from such ads. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 21:52:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs...
Can you do a "simple parlor trick" to make it look like you're telekinetically moving a non-magnetic coin under a glass cover? Besides, I said evidence, not proof. There is a difference.
It's not evidence, it's a simple parlor trick. There is a difference. I've been a professional magician on and off for over 30 years, and I can do that simple parlor trick. I could take you to some online magicians' forums and introduce you to tens of thousands of people who can do it. And I could teach anyone here to do it in five minutes. James Randi has a million dollars for anyone who can do it for real, without a trick.quote:
Assuming that they aren't delusional, but instead liars, they would have to be incredibly dedicated liars who don't mind spending money and loads of time on their lie, with no reward other than the thought of people believing their lie.
Now you're on the right track.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2005 : 22:41:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
Interesting. You all seem to be extremely atheist. And they say stereotypes aren't true. Anyways...
I have to protest against this stereotyping. Depending on mood, I tend to swing between being agnostic and anti-theist, bypassing atheist completely.
I also would think that Valiant Dancer would protest too, since he's Wiccan.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 07:57:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
"They're not making any money off it" is a part of your delusion. You simply ignore the paid ads on the site. Or you'll claim that they don't make a profit from such ads.
It's not like google ads pay large sums of money. Also, anyone who signs up (for free) can shut off the google ads (for free).
quote:
People do this, all the time. They rationalize the tricks they do as not being tricks, but instead "necessary" for the "effects" to become "apparent."
Yeah, but don't those people also eventually break down and go completely crazy as well? Besides, does it even matter if they are delusional, as long as they are making people happy, and not charging them money for it? It's not like they're scientologists or anything. They aren't harming anyone.
quote:
I have to protest against this stereotyping. Depending on mood, I tend to swing between being agnostic and anti-theist, bypassing atheist completely.
I tend to group those together with atheist.They all disbelieve (or are skeptical about) the existence of God or a god. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 08:30:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs...
Now let's assume they are delusional, and all reports of psi are delusionals. Does it matter if they really perform these feats, as long they are all happy? They're not making any money off it, and they aren't forcing anyone into practicing. IIRC, they don't even advertise. It's all through word of mouth.
[and in another posting]...
Yeah, but don't those people also eventually break down and go completely crazy as well? Besides, does it even matter if they are delusional, as long as they are making people happy, and not charging them money for it? It's not like they're scientologists or anything. They aren't harming anyone.
Okay, let's assume these people are delusional, or even a mixture of liars, delusional, attention mongers, pranksters, and sometimes just silly college kids who spend lots of time playing fantasy games and have a hard time sorting illusion from reality. You're right, they're not harming anyone. But you do realize that in acknowledging those reasons/motives you're tossing the notion of psi being some sort of genuine manifestation right out the window.
And no, they don't all eventually break down and go crazy (although it certainly could be argued that they already are crazy). Some people carry their delusions of gods, UFOs, ghosts, ESP, and yes, even psi to their graves.
Now if you're certain of your claim that psi, TK, and related phenomena are real, I'd be glad to personally introduce you to James Randi. I've met the man on several occasions. He's a very personable man, and is actually quite accessible as far as "celebrities" go. I'd be happy to work with you in designing the experiment necessary to put up against Randi's million dollar challenge. And I'd only want $50,000 as a consulting fee for my work in the project. If you're able to meet the challenge you'll be in for a tidy net sum of $950,000. If you're interested I'll let you know where to send the $50,000 check. If it's not worth almost a million bucks to you, in other words, if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, then your claim and credibility have been reduced to zero. Let me know.
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 09:55:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
But you do realize that in acknowledging those reasons/motives you're tossing the notion of psi being some sort of genuine manifestation right out the window.
Only hypothetically, of course. Hypothetically, if they're all attention mongers, delusionals, liars, etc... then they still aren't harming anybody, and the notion of psi being genuine is hypothetically tossed out the window.
quote:
If it's not worth almost a million bucks to you, in other words, if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, then your claim and credibility have been reduced to zero. Let me know.
Wouldn't that be putting Randi's money where my mouth is? Anyways, I'd love to try it, as soon as I can make a visible psi-ball with ease, or move something say, the size of a cellphone or soda can telekinetically. No point in going through all the trouble of that when I can only produce a basic psionic construct (i.e. a psi-ball, cube, cone, etc...), which would be difficult to prove.
Just out of curiosity, is that a million dollars after taxes, or is that before Uncle Sam gets his share?
Wow, now I feel inspired to practice psionics harder. Thanks. |
| Edited by - Eldibs on 12/08/2005 09:56:09 |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 10:44:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Wow, now I feel inspired to practice psionics harder. Thanks.
While you're certainly welcome to do so, may I venture to suggest that you are wasting your time.
You are not going to be able to make any psiballs, nor will you be able to perform telekinesis.
And they are harming people. Not least themselves; in the sense that they are divorcing themselves from reality. This is inherently unhealthy, at least if you use the definition of mental health as 'the ability to act in accordance with the demands of reality'. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 10:52:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
While you're certainly welcome to do so, may I venture to suggest that you are wasting your time.
Sure. May I venture to suggest that you are wasting your time by telling me I am wasting my time. Besides, I'm only using 40 minutes a day out of my 11 hours of daily free time (that's if I take an hour-long lunch) to practice psionics.
quote:
And they are harming people. Not least themselves; in the sense that they are divorcing themselves from reality. This is inherently unhealthy, at least if you use the definition of mental health as 'the ability to act in accordance with the demands of reality'.
When I say harming people, I mean physically harming them, causing undue stress, or promoting general unhappiness. Personally, I don't care if I end up as a bum having streetfights with an imaginary monkey as long as I'm happy. |
| Edited by - Eldibs on 12/08/2005 10:53:05 |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 11:02:39 [Permalink]
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| You may not care, but that doesn't make you any less tragic. Or it any less wrong. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 15:06:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs...quote:
Originally posted by me...
If it's not worth almost a million bucks to you, in other words, if you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, then your claim and credibility have been reduced to zero. Let me know.
Wouldn't that be putting Randi's money where my mouth is? Anyways, I'd love to try it, as soon as I can make a visible psi-ball with ease, or move something say, the size of a cellphone or soda can telekinetically. No point in going through all the trouble of that when I can only produce a basic psionic construct (i.e. a psi-ball, cube, cone, etc...), which would be difficult to prove.
No, you've apparently misunderstood my offer. I'm a professional magician with decades of experience in specialized fields such the psychology of deception, optical illusion, and theatrical special effects. I also have over a decade of experience in the field of computer graphics and the use of photo manipulation software. I am offering my services to you as a consultant to assist you in designing the appropriate demonstration to try for the Randi Foundation million dollar challenge.
You've made it quite clear that you have no clue about things like simple magic tricks, or even the most rudimentary methods of faking photos. This is obvious because you claim to accept magic tricks and faked photos as evidence of psi phenomena. I would assist you in designing the proper experiments to preclude the use of tricks, optical illusions, theatrical effects, or bogus photography. You see, you can't win the million dollars if your experiments don't hold up against some very rigorous testing, and you certainly lack the skills or experience to develop the appropriate demonstrations so they would be accepted by the Randi Foundation.
You would pay me $50,000 for my consulting services, up front, before I design the experiments and demonstrations. You get your million dollars after you demonstrate to the Randi Foundation that your TK and psi effects are real. Your net take is $950,000. Oh, and those few hundred other psi-ballers, the deluded ones, liars, pranksters, and even college kids who spend too much time playing fantasy games, in the unlikely event that any of them have the balls to try it, my offer to do the consultation work and demonstration development is open to any of them, too. Same fee.
So again I'd suggest, if you want almost a million dollars, and if you want any sane, intelligent, clear thinking people to believe your claim, the opportunity stands before you. And it would be silly to wait until you can move a cellphone or a soda can. You collect the million even if you can only psychically move a coin, or even a piece of popcorn. Your turn. Put your money where your mouth is. 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 19:10:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
It's not like google ads pay large sums of money. Also, anyone who signs up (for free) can shut off the google ads (for free).
What did I say? Oh yeah, "Or you'll claim that they don't make a profit from such ads." My prediction of your rationalization must mean that I'm psychic. Either that, or your delusion is, well, predictable.quote:
Yeah, but don't those people also eventually break down and go completely crazy as well?
No.quote:
Besides, does it even matter if they are delusional, as long as they are making people happy, and not charging them money for it? It's not like they're scientologists or anything. They aren't harming anyone.
The idea that these sorts of things are okay so long as they're not physically harming anyone is monumentally naive. Someone (perhaps not a PsiPog) is making loads of cash off these same ideas, because they're basically teenage masturbatory fantasies, and those always sell. (Beside the point, but how many women are involved with PsiPog?) PsiPog, by encouraging this idea - even for free - is helping the conmen separate the fools from their money. Doesn't matter whether they're liars or delusional or what-have-you, the folks at PsiPog bear some of the responsibility for popularizing the idea that these parlor tricks are "evidence," thus helping out every disreputable slug who sees what a wonderful opportunity for profit this, and other "magical" thinking, is.
You too, now shoulder some of that burden. How does it feel to know that you are partially responsible for conning people out of billions of dollars every year, simply by demanding a pathetically shallow standard of evidence?
Hell, since some part of my tax dollars are spent, every year, on investigating and prosecuting the sort of fraud you are aiding, I'd be pretty pissed off if I didn't know that you simply don't know better (right now). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 19:16:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs:
Yes, but the consistency of their information, combined with multiple videos of them performing some of these feats (http://www.psipog.net/media.php) and the length of time the site has been up indicates they aren't deluded or crazy. They would have to be incredibly dedicated liars who don't mind spending money and loads of time on their lie, with no reward other than the thought of people believing their lie.
Sort of like this moron.
quote:
Besides, does it even matter if they are delusional, as long as they are making people happy, and not charging them money for it? It's not like they're scientologists or anything. They aren't harming anyone.
I consider the promotion of stupidity to be harmful to all involved and society in general.
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 21:04:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
I consider the promotion of stupidity to be harmful to all involved and society in general.
If society is in such a bad shape that it can be affected by a few people doing something that you consider idiotic, then it's too late.
quote:
What did I say? Oh yeah, "Or you'll claim that they don't make a profit from such ads." My prediction of your rationalization must mean that I'm psychic. Either that, or your delusion is, well, predictable.
It's possible they make a profit. However, I have a hard time believing that the psipog people are raking in millions like you seem to think. They have one set of google ads that can be disabled for free. It's not like their site is one giant billboard. If they make any money off the site, it's probably not very much.
quote:
Someone (perhaps not a PsiPog) is making loads of cash off these same ideas
That, I am against. There shouldn't be any charge for these ideas, it should be publicly available. If there is any cost, it should be merely duplication costs (like paying for printer paper, cd's, or whatever media you want the information in). Psipog has made their information publicly available for free, and if they make any money, it's from advertising from companies that advertise through google, minus their hosting and domain name fees.
quote:
the folks at PsiPog bear some of the responsibility for popularizing the idea that these parlor tricks are "evidence," thus helping out every disreputable slug who sees what a wonderful opportunity for profit this, and other "magical" thinking, is.
Actually, from what I hear, most people who have joined Psipog have heard something similar elsewhere before visiting Psipog. Psipog doesn't advertise, other people advertise for them (you know, word-of-mouth). They may bear some of the responsibility for convincing people their ideas are right, but not for planting the ideas in their head.
quote:
You would pay me $50,000 for my consulting services, up front, before I design the experiments and demonstrations. You get your million dollars after you demonstrate to the Randi Foundation that your TK and psi effects are real.
Hah! $50,000 up front! If I had that kind of money to throw around, I wouldn't really need some extra cash in the first place. Besides, if Randi really wanted to find the truth, don't you think he (or a representative) would be involved in the experiment as well?
quote:
You collect the million even if you can only psychically move a coin, or even a piece of popcorn.
I'm aware of that. However, if I can easily move an average-sized cellphone with some concentration, then moving a coin would be a simple matter, thus making it easier to win the challenge.
quote:
You've made it quite clear that you have no clue about things like simple magic tricks, or even the most rudimentary methods of faking photos. This is obvious because you claim to accept magic tricks and faked photos as evidence of psi phenomena.
I admit I have no experience in magic tricks. However, I do know that faked photos and videos leave telltale marks, like detail levels not matching, and those ugly lines of pixels around things changed in photos, for example. |
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