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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2005 : 21:42:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
However, if I can easily move an average-sized cellphone with some concentration, then moving a coin would be a simple matter, thus making it easier to win the challenge.
Cool! Fill out the application immediately.
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I admit I have no experience in magic tricks. However, I do know that faked photos and videos leave telltale marks, like detail levels not matching, and those ugly lines of pixels around things changed in photos, for example.
Only bad fakes.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 21:45:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
It's possible they make a profit. However, I have a hard time believing that the psipog people are raking in millions like you seem to think.
Hardly. You said that they get no reward. If they've earned even a penny, then what you said isn't true.quote:
Actually, from what I hear, most people who have joined Psipog have heard something similar elsewhere before visiting Psipog. Psipog doesn't advertise, other people advertise for them (you know, word-of-mouth). They may bear some of the responsibility for convincing people their ideas are right, but not for planting the ideas in their head.
I really don't think you understand what's going on. The people at PsiPog are promoting the idea that magic is real. This is the same idea which people like Jon Edward and Sylvia Browne use to bilk people of millions of dollars every year. It doesn't matter if PsiPog doesn't advertise - if they convince just one person that the videos provided are "evidence" that people can move objects with their mind, the damage is done, and the world becomes one person more gullible, "dumbening" the entire planet.quote:
I'm aware of that. However, if I can easily move an average-sized cellphone with some concentration, then moving a coin would be a simple matter, thus making it easier to win the challenge.
You obviously have no clue about Randi's Challenge. What counts as "success" is set primarily by you. What would happen is, if you told Randi you could move (with your mind alone) a piece of popcorn one millimeter, 95% of the times that you try to do so, he'd make it easier on you and offer you the million bucks if you could move the popcorn half a millimeter, in any seven out of ten tries. Provided, of course, that you'd agree to have the popcorn inside a Lexan box, and have your hands tied behind your back (simple controls).
The dowsers, for example, often claim a 100% success rate in finding stuff (whether it be water or gold or whatever). Randi outlines a test, and says to them, "could you find it under these conditions?" They say, "yes, easily!" Randi says, "well, we'll count even a 75% success rate as passing the test." They say, "it doesn't matter, my rate is 100%." The test that they agreed they could pass with flying colors happens, they score 10% (or whatever the random guessing rate is), and go home without the money.quote:
I admit I have no experience in magic tricks. However, I do know that faked photos and videos leave telltale marks, like detail levels not matching, and those ugly lines of pixels around things changed in photos, for example.
You are, again, showing that you are monumentally naive. Faked photos and videos are not limited to what you can do in PhotoShop. The Swiss-Army-Knife photo, for example, could be more easily produced simply by setting the shutter speed very high, brightly lighting the scene, and tossing the knife in the air. Better yet, take video (with the high shutter speed) and just pick the best single frame. That would involve much less labor and time than PhotoShopping the thing together, and would lack all those "telltale marks" you think you know about. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2005 : 23:20:17 [Permalink]
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You obviously have no clue about Randi's Challenge. What counts as "success" is set primarily by you. What would happen is, if you told Randi you could move (with your mind alone) a piece of popcorn one millimeter, 95% of the times that you try to do so, he'd make it easier on you and offer you the million bucks if you could move the popcorn half a millimeter, in any seven out of ten tries. Provided, of course, that you'd agree to have the popcorn inside a Lexan box, and have your hands tied behind your back (simple controls).
You don't get what I'm saying. I could go and learn telekinesis to the extent that I could lift a cellphone psychically, then apply for the Randi Challenge, trying to move a much smaller object. By moving an object smaller than my maximum, I would decrease the chances of failure due to being under pressure, and thereby increase my chance at winning the Randi Challenge.
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Hardly. You said that they get no reward. If they've earned even a penny, then what you said isn't true.
Sorry, my mistake. You know what a mistake is, right? Those things that you accidentally do that are wrong.
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I really don't think you understand what's going on. The people at PsiPog are promoting the idea that magic is real. This is the same idea which people like Jon Edward and Sylvia Browne use to bilk people of millions of dollars every year. It doesn't matter if PsiPog doesn't advertise - if they convince just one person that the videos provided are "evidence" that people can move objects with their mind, the damage is done, and the world becomes one person more gullible, "dumbening" the entire planet.
If you've read through the articles on Psipog, you've already got your mind made up. You're either looking for material to practice, or for some sort of logical fallacy or something to back up your arguments against them.
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The Swiss-Army-Knife photo, for example, could be more easily produced simply by setting the shutter speed very high, brightly lighting the scene, and tossing the knife in the air. Better yet, take video (with the high shutter speed) and just pick the best single frame. That would involve much less labor and time than PhotoShopping the thing together, and would lack all those "telltale marks" you think you know about.
Obviously. It could also be faked with fishing line. Just tie it up to a lamp post or something. Fishing line is invisible under the right circumstances. But anyways, that's not the point. I'm not claiming to be an expert on edited videos and images, but I do claim to at least know something about it.
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Cool! Fill out the application immediately.
Notice my usage of the word 'if' in my statement you quoted.
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Only bad fakes.
So, all Hollywood computer animation and video editing is terrible?
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"dumbening" the entire planet.
That's a bit like trying to drain an empty bathtub. |
| Edited by - Eldibs on 12/09/2005 07:45:57 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 07:59:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
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I consider the promotion of stupidity to be harmful to all involved and society in general.
If society is in such a bad shape that it can be affected by a few people doing something that you consider idiotic, then it's too late.
I think you seriously underestimate the number of gullible idiots in America. One quarter of the population voted for Bush to stay in office, didn't they? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 09:28:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs...
You don't get what I'm saying. I could go and learn telekinesis to the extent that I could lift a cellphone psychically, then apply for the Randi Challenge, trying to move a much smaller object. By moving an object smaller than my maximum, I would decrease the chances of failure due to being under pressure, and thereby increase my chance at winning the Randi Challenge.
You don't get what we're saying. Nobody has ever learned telekinesis to the extent that they could demonstrably lift anything with their mind... nothing... ever. From the lack of evidence it seems unlikely that you'll ever be able to do so either. By moving even a feather or a piece of confetti in a controlled environment you would be surpassing anything ever demonstrated in the way of telekinetic ability.
Now let's say you, or any of the other kids over at Psipog, can move a one inch square piece of tissue paper with just the power of your mind. That should be easy, after all some of those kids can levitate pocket knives and coins, items thousands of times heavier than a tiny slip of paper. Even you should be able to do it if you'd stop playing with your balls long enough to give it a try.
Then have one of those kids submit to the Randi Foundation challenge and offer to move a piece of tissue paper only a millimeter square. That would be over 600 times easier than moving a piece the size of a postage stamp. Do the demonstration. Mr. Randi hands you the check. You go home a rich boy. Easiest million dollars you could ever imagine making. Even Bill Gates would be jealous.
Yep, you don't get what we're saying. You keep babbling about this psi and TK stuff being real, doable phenomena. We're saying if you or any of the other children at Psipog can really do it, then do it. Stop making apologies and excuses for why you won't... or can't. Otherwise you're only making yourself and your pals look more and more like idiots by continuing to claim that you can.
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 10:18:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Even you should be able to do it if you'd stop playing with your balls long enough to give it a try.
Thanks GeeMack!! I just spit coffee all over my keyboard! 
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 12:31:19 [Permalink]
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Even you should be able to do it if you'd stop playing with your balls long enough to give it a try.
And you call us kids...
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You don't get what we're saying. Nobody has ever learned telekinesis to the extent that they could demonstrably lift anything with their mind... nothing... ever. From the lack of evidence it seems unlikely that you'll ever be able to do so either. By moving even a feather or a piece of confetti in a controlled environment you would be surpassing anything ever demonstrated in the way of telekinetic ability.
I get what you're saying. You're saying I shouldn't waste time learning to move a larger object, when I could simply move something smaller for the contest. Here's what I'm saying: Telekinesis is a bit like weightlifting. If you can lift 200 lbs on an easy day, then on a crappy day, 5 pounds would be very easy to lift. Only telekinesis is more easily affected by your mindset and physical health. If you don't think you can do it, if you're under pressure or strees, or if you're just sick, your chances at moving the object drop drastically. Now, trying to pass the challenge would put an abnormal amount of stress on you, decreasing your chances at moving the small object. If you were really good at moving the large object, then the small object would be easy to move, even under stress. Therefore, it would be easier to pass the challenge by moving a small object, even under stress. You learn it to the point where you can move a medium-sized object, apply for the challenge moving a small object, and your chances of success are better.
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I think you seriously underestimate the number of gullible idiots in America. One quarter of the population voted for Bush to stay in office, didn't they?
Like I said, it's too late anyways. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 13:13:41 [Permalink]
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Now, trying to pass the challenge would put an abnormal amount of stress on you
Do or do not... THERE IS NO TRY.
May the force be with you.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 13:18:07 [Permalink]
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Well surely there is ONE person who wont be stressed out taking the test? Hell if I was so certain I would find the impending million dollars not-so-stressful at all.
You will also get more millions for the many science prizes and media/book deals. What are they waiting for?
Strange how this mysterious stress is also the excuse used by all types of supposed psychics, healers, ghost hunters and the millions of other qualifying claimants. Surely most of these people could use a million?
Indeed the same stress which befell Uri Geller on the Tonight Show, only after his props were replaced with copies which were not provided and prepared by him.
Spare us with the stress BS, its been used to death. Perhaps a better explination is that this crap just dont work. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 13:40:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs...
I get what you're saying. You're saying I shouldn't waste time learning to move a larger object, when I could simply move something smaller for the contest. Here's what I'm saying: Telekinesis is a bit like weightlifting. If you can lift 200 lbs on an easy day, then on a crappy day, 5 pounds would be very easy to lift. Only telekinesis is more easily affected by your mindset and physical health. If you don't think you can do it, if you're under pressure or strees, or if you're just sick, your chances at moving the object drop drastically. Now, trying to pass the challenge would put an abnormal amount of stress on you, decreasing your chances at moving the small object. If you were really good at moving the large object, then the small object would be easy to move, even under stress. Therefore, it would be easier to pass the challenge by moving a small object, even under stress. You learn it to the point where you can move a medium-sized object, apply for the challenge moving a small object, and your chances of success are better.
No, you don't get what I'm saying. I'm saying you're all noise and no substance. I'm saying you're not able or willing to put up, and you're just dumb enough not to know when to shut up. I'm saying all the excuses and apologies and double talk and side stepping and arm waving in the world is not going to make your delusion come true. But just in case you'd like to try one more time to understand how easy it might be to demonstrate that you're right, continue...
A grain of salt weighs 5.85x10^-5 grams. I weighed a 35 square inch piece of tissue paper and did the math to determine that a square of it a half inch on each side weighs about 0.002875 grams, approximately 49 times the weight of a grain of salt. Your weightlifting example only uses a differential of 1/40, so this test would be almost 20% relatively easier than the differential you'd like to achieve according to your example.
When you, or any of the other kids over at Psipog, can psychically move a quarter of a square inch of tissue paper, then moving a grain of salt should be a walk in the park. I'm sure Mr. Randi will allow us to do the telekinesis demonstration using a grain of salt as our test subject. To me it seems like the possibility of grabbing that million dollars is becoming easier and easier.
But here's what I actually expect from you: You'll have yet another excuse, or list of excuses, as to why you, nor a single other one of the Psipog kids is willing to stake your claim to such an easy pile of money. I'd say if you can do it, do it. But clearly you can't.
So go away and practice to your heart's content. And when you can move that dinky little light weight sliver of tissue paper a hundredth of an inch along a near frictionless surface with your telekinetic powers, you come back and let us know. Whenever you're ready I'll grab a whole box full of grains of salt, and you can personally choose the smallest one. Then I'll call the Randi Foundation and let them know we have a contender. We'll be waiting (and waiting and waiting...).
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 15:09:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
A grain of salt weighs 5.85x10^-5 grams. I weighed a 35 square inch piece of tissue paper and did the math to determine that a square of it a half inch on each side weighs about 0.002875 grams, approximately 49 times the weight of a grain of salt. Your weightlifting example only uses a differential of 1/40, so this test would be almost 20% relatively easier than the differential you'd like to achieve according to your example.
When you, or any of the other kids over at Psipog, can psychically move a quarter of a square inch of tissue paper, then moving a grain of salt should be a walk in the park. I'm sure Mr. Randi will allow us to do the telekinesis demonstration using a grain of salt as our test subject. To me it seems like the possibility of grabbing that million dollars is becoming easier and easier.
Excellent idea. I'll get to work on that, just so I can look forward to laughing at you all the way to the bank.
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I'm saying you're all noise and no substance. I'm saying you're not able or willing to put up, and you're just dumb enough not to know when to shut up.
That's implied. If for any reason a skeptic happens to be having a discussion with a psionics practitioner, that's almost always what they're thinking.
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Well surely there is ONE person who wont be stressed out taking the test? Hell if I was so certain I would find the impending million dollars not-so-stressful at all.
No, but it would be very distracting. I don't know about you, but for me, the possibility of a million dollars would be extremely distracting. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 17:15:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs...quote:
Originally posted by me...
I'm saying you're all noise and no substance. I'm saying you're not able or willing to put up, and you're just dumb enough not to know when to shut up.
That's implied. If for any reason a skeptic happens to be having a discussion with a psionics practitioner, that's almost always what they're thinking.
Mind reader now, too? Okay, okay, just kidding. That was too easy. After all, 100% of the "psionics practitioners" since the beginning of history have been unable to demonstrate that their powers are indeed real. I've run the numbers a few ways, and some of the better mathematicians here might want to check my figures, but from my calculations, 100% is a pretty substantial failure rate. 
We'll be awaiting your triumphant return from Florida with that big fat check! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 17:33:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
Excellent idea. I'll get to work on that, just so I can look forward to laughing at you all the way to the bank.
Almost all of us would like nothing better than for you to win the prize. Real, scientific proof that psi powers are real? It would be a boon to mankind. Randi has always said that he hopes more than anyone that some day someone wins his prize. It's just that most of us been let down so many times before by self-deluded hacks, a few of us are a bit cynical.
But tell us, if you fail the test, are you going to conclude that your powers were an illusion or will you try to justify your failure with excuses about stress, etc.? We're more than willing to congratulate you and admit we were wrong if you win the money, will you extend the same curtesy and admit we were right if you fail?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 12/09/2005 17:33:39 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2005 : 19:46:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldibs
You don't get what I'm saying. I could go and learn telekinesis to the extent that I could lift a cellphone psychically, then apply for the Randi Challenge, trying to move a much smaller object. By moving an object smaller than my maximum, I would decrease the chances of failure due to being under pressure, and thereby increase my chance at winning the Randi Challenge.
No, I got what you were saying. You still don't seem to understand the challenge. Randi will bend over backwards to try to ensure that you're completely comfortable with the task you set out to do. He doesn't want to hear excuses, he wants you to be able to perform as you claim to be able to perform. He wants to see you do your thing under whatever conditions you want, in order to show (both you and he) that you can do it. Then he'll put the controls in place to prevent non-paranormal means of accomplishing the task.
I remember one demonstration of this sort of thing. A guy claimed to be able to turn the pages of a phone book with his mind. He'd stare and an open phone book, and after a few seconds the top pages would flutter and then flip over to the other side of the book. Randi (I think it was him) then scattered little bits of styrofoam over the table, and asked the guy to do it again. It was clear, when some of the bits of foam started to dance off the table, that the guy was simply blowing the pages over (he'd perfected his technique so that it didn't look like he was blowing at all).quote:
Sorry, my mistake. You know what a mistake is, right? Those things that you accidentally do that are wrong.
Touchy, aren't you?quote:
If you've read through the articles on Psipog, you've already got your mind made up. You're either looking for material to practice, or for some sort of logical fallacy or something to back up your arguments against them.
I'm not arguing against them, really. I'm arguing against your claim that PsiPog's videos are "evidence" of something. They're not. That you encourage people to think that they are is either an attempt to make other people look as foolish as yourself (so you won't feel so bad for believing the videos), or it's an attempt to ensure they'll be plenty of suckers available when you start trying to cash in on their gullibility. Or, it's plain and simple ignorance. Take your pick.quote:
Obviously. It could also be faked with fishing line. Just tie it up to a lamp post or something. Fishing line is invisible under the right circumstances. But anyways, that's not the point. I'm not claiming to be an expert on edited videos and images, but I do claim to at least know something about it.
Yes, you know just enough to analyze the videos and images in a completely incorrect way. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is a popular saying because it's true, and you're demonstrating its truth.quote:
quote:
"dumbening" the entire planet.
That's a bit like trying to drain an empty bathtub.
Well, Mr. Cynic, if you're so convinced of the hopeless stupidity of humanity, why would it bother you if PsiPog were raking in the dough or were physically harming people? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Eldibs
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 14:03:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, I got what you were saying. You still don't seem to understand the challenge. Randi will bend over backwards to try to ensure that you're completely comfortable with the task you set out to do. He doesn't want to hear excuses, he wants you to be able to perform as you claim to be able to perform. He wants to see you do your thing under whatever conditions you want, in order to show (both you and he) that you can do it. Then he'll put the controls in place to prevent non-paranormal means of accomplishing the task.
Yes, I understand the challenge. You state the paranormal feat you can perform, Randi puts checks in place to make sure you're actually doing it via paranormal means. And from the what you guys say about him, he's a very reasonable person, so if I were sick or had some sort of emergency, the test could be postponed.
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Touchy, aren't you?
Nope, it's just that you guys act like you (or Randi) has never made a mistake, so I thought I'd clarify for you.
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Well, Mr. Cynic, if you're so convinced of the hopeless stupidity of humanity, why would it bother you if PsiPog were raking in the dough or were physically harming people?
Because there are better ways of dealing with idiots. Like taking warning labels off all commercial products, for example. Besides, getting rid of idiocy is one thing, benefitting from it is completely different.
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But tell us, if you fail the test, are you going to conclude that your powers were an illusion or will you try to justify your failure with excuses about stress, etc.? We're more than willing to congratulate you and admit we were wrong if you win the money, will you extend the same curtesy and admit we were right if you fail?
It depends on the situation, as all things do with me. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
While I'm at it, does the JREF do anything other than run the million dollar challenge? |
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