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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2003 : 02:34:45 [Permalink]
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What? You mean the Iraqis have freedom fighters? Just because they want to ELECT a provisional council instead of have the Americans appoint one, just because they want the foreign troops out of their country? Well, we will offer bounties to collaborators who turn in these freedom fighters and go house-to-house to round up the malcontents.
And if that doesn't work, then for every Nazi killed we will kill a hundred Iraqis! I mean, for every American killed! Sheesh, what was I thinking.
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All kidding aside, I think the American troops for the most part acted quite decently during the hot phase of the war...given the constraints of their mission, and given that war is a fundamentally brutal business. I have much more respect for them and their field commanders than I do for the wealthy, shortsighted elitists who sent them to Iraq. |
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 03:24:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
I guess the Iraqi people are freedom loving and from the looks of news reports they are willing to kill as many Americans as it takes to get it. Not only that but they are willing to destroy their own infrastructure:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030626/wl_nm/energy_iraq_fire_dc_5
It sort of brings a tear to you eye...
@tomic
"They" are, are "they"? At last report there were something like 27 million people in Iraq. How many do you think are involved in these attacks? 100? 500? If it's any more than that, they are certainly an indolent and lazy lot, to just get in one good attack a day. These events say nothing about Iraqis in general. You might as well claim that the Michigan militia represents Americans in general. This is recycled 60s Guevarista mythology, that the first guy who throws a bomb represents "the people" and speaks for them: elitism from the barrel of a gun (the true source of democracy according to Mao). You should know better, @tomic.
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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 04:02:22 [Permalink]
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Getting to the real issue, I don't think it is necessary to glorify these Iraqi killers as "resistance fighters" (remember denotation/connotation?) or representatives of the people to see that Dubya has hijacked the War on Terror and turned 9-11 into the Reichstag Fire.
This week, the right-wingers at Free Republic are grasping at some very thin straws indeed to prove a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda.
On the other hand, the connection between Saudi Arabia and Al Qaeda is too obvious to need any exposition. Yet they remain our "good friends" and the Saudi ambassador is a frequent guest at Dubya's Crawford ranch.
Saddam was (is?) an evil bastard, and I would be happy to see his head on a pike somewhere, but he was not an Islamic fundy. No proof has surfaced of a connection between his regime and the 9-11 attacks, despite a worldwide search for the tiniest shred of such evidence. In fact, he held off the Iranian fanatics for eight critical years in the 80s. The morality of our support for Saddam in the 80s was certainly questionable, but there were good reasons that we did it. The lesser of two evils? Sure, it's not good enough for those whose morality can be safely proclaimed from pulpits or lecterns or anonymous pages on the internet, but it is how the real world operates and the stakes are often very high.
We gave the Soviet Union 8 billion dollars in lend-lease aid during WW2, at a time when 8 billion was real money. The extreme right has made a cottage industry out of proclaiming that the US fought on the wrong side in World War 2, and that most of our present-day problems are traceable to our support for Stalin during that conflict. Would rational people agree with this? Would the moral authority of our refusal to aid the evil Stalin have held off the Nazis? I don't think so.
Twice now, we have given the Islamic fanatics a strategic victory in their jihad against the civilized world: once when we backed them against the Soviets in Afghanistan (there were two sides to that story as well) and once when we destroyed their arch-enemy, Saddam Hussein. It remains to be seen whether we have delivered Iraq into their hands, but that is a very likely outcome. |
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Julie_Bris
New Member
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 00:04:13 [Permalink]
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Why is it that when a certain group is doing the dirty work on behalf of the USA they are referred to as “freedom fighters” yet when they become a bit on the nose they are all of the sudden “terrorists”
 
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My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, racism and arrogance. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 02:24:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why is it that when a certain group is doing the dirty work on behalf of the USA they are referred to as “freedom fighters” yet when they become a bit on the nose they are all of the sudden “terrorists”
Well, because we have the biggest guns, of course!  And, welcome aboard, Julie.... |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 04:59:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Julie_Bris
Why is it that when a certain group is doing the dirty work on behalf of the USA they are referred to as “freedom fighters” yet when they become a bit on the nose they are all of the sudden “terrorists”
If there is any rational component to these terms at all, "terrorist" refers to methods, "freedom fighter" to objectives. Representing them as alternative terms for the same thing is a misleading confusion of categories, though certainly common enough today. "Freedom fighter" would imply a complete endorsement of the killers' objectives, something which they, themselves, have not chosen to share.
Obviously they seek to undermine public support for the occupation in the West, since this level of violence would scarcely be enough to achieve their objectives by force. Beyond that, taking the most likely objectives, would we really regard a revival of Baathist rule or the imposition of an Islamic fundamentalist regime as "freedom"?
As for methods, it is quite possible for a group to be both. There is no doubt at all, for instance, that the French resistance in World War 2 engaged in terrorist acts. The same is true of the Afghan mujaheddin in the 1980s.
It is not well-known in the West that the immediate cause of the Soviet invasion was the Afghan government's inability to deal with an attack by opposition forces on the Soviet compound in Herat. As part of their regular program of assistance to the embattled secular government, the Russians were attempting to build a girl's school. Rebels seized the city in April, 1979. In the process, 80+ Soviet citizens; mostly military advisors and their families but some civilians, men, women, and children; were hunted down and slaughtered with the most sickening brutality. Soviet aircraft intervened across the border, but arrived too late to stop the massacre, though they did bomb and strafe the mobs, killing up to several thousand. The overthrow of the Afghan government, its replacement by Soviet puppets, and the arrival of Soviet troops followed a few months later.
I was outspokenly opposed to aiding the Afghan mujaheddin during the 80s, since it did not serve any important Cold War strategic objective, but it did give a great boost to forces who showed every sign of being a major problem in the future. I compared the general situation to the Second World War and the defacto US alliance with Stalin against something worse. People thought I was crazy.
I've never been willing to say "I told you so" over this, since I really wish I had been wrong.
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| Edited by - Jimmy_Reynolds on 07/17/2003 06:03:04 |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 06:34:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Julie_Bris
Why is it that when a certain group is doing the dirty work on behalf of the USA they are referred to as “freedom fighters” yet when they become a bit on the nose they are all of the sudden “terrorists”
A fellow Aussie....woohoo...
Someone to help me hang some shit on you Seppos |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 07:48:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
quote:
Originally posted by Julie_Bris
Why is it that when a certain group is doing the dirty work on behalf of the USA they are referred to as “freedom fighters” yet when they become a bit on the nose they are all of the sudden “terrorists”
A fellow Aussie....woohoo...
Someone to help me hang some shit on you Seppos
Seppo: Australian bigots' term for Americans. From septic tank, meaning full of shit.
We have no comparable slur for Australians because Australia isn't important enough to come to the attention of those Americans who are ignorant enough of rational discourse to use such terms. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 11:11:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Seppo: Australian bigots' term for Americans. From septic tank, meaning full of shit.
We have no comparable slur for Australians because Australia isn't important enough to come to the attention of those Americans who are ignorant enough of rational discourse to use such terms.
Ah, words straight out of the Rumsfeld dictionary of diplomacy.
Quite obvious you are ignorant of the Australian rhyming vernacular. Just because I call an American a Seppo does not mean that I have any contempt of him or her. If one can't take the brunt of a humorous jibe at ones nationality, then so be it. Look at some of the stuff I write here, I'm just as full of shit as the next person.
If I call my mate a "Blunt Stick", doesn't mean I necessarily think he IS a useless prick. He, unlike you, will see the humour in it.
Unfortunately, it is comments like this that give the world shits. The old "Fuck Off, America will hold you in contempt because in my opinion you are not important enough to come to our attention."
If the conflict in North Korea takes off, I bet we are important enough to use our ports and facilities.
As we always have, we will help you. Maybe not too the extent of Britain, but there are only 20 million of us. However, that gives us the right to have some fun at your expense. Don't forget, we are one of your few true allies left in an increasingly hostile Asian/Islamic region.
At least out nation isn't so insecure as to change the name of our Americana Pizza's to Freedom Pizza's, or pour all the Budweiser in the country down the drain when you don't agree with us.
Going on some of our trade agreements with America, I'm suprised that the Pacific Ocean isn't awash with pissweak, half strength American beer.
Sheeeesh, take a joke
Edited, spelling again....groan
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 07/17/2003 11:12:19 |
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Jimmy_Reynolds
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 11:43:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
quote:
We have no comparable slur for Australians because Australia isn't important enough to come to the attention of those Americans who are ignorant enough of rational discourse to use such terms.
Ah, words straight out of the Rumsfeld dictionary of diplomacy.
Quite obvious you are ignorant of the Australian rhyming vernacular. Just because I call an American a Seppo does not mean that I have any contempt of him or her. If one can't take the brunt of a humorous jibe at ones nationality, then so be it. Look at some of the stuff I write here, I'm just as full of shit as the next person.
If I call my mate a "Blunt Stick", doesn't mean I necessarily think he is a useless prick. He, unlike you, will see the humour in it.
Unfortunately, it is comments like this that give the world shits. The old "Fuck Off, America will hold you in contempt because in my opinion you are not important enough to come to our attention."
If the conflict in South Korea takes off, I bet we are important enough to use our ports and facilities.
As we always have, we will help you. Maybe not too the extent of Britain, but there are only 20 million of us. However, that gives us the right to have some fun at your expense. Don't forget, we are one of your few true allies left in an increasingly hostile Asian/Islamic region.
At least out nation isn't so insecure as to change the name of our Americana Pizza's to Freedom Pizza's, or pour all the Budweiser in the country down the drain when you don't agree with us.
Going on some of our trade agreements with America, I'm suprised that the Pacific Ocean isn't awash with pissweak, half strength American beer.
Sheeeesh, take a joke
Edited, spelling again....groan
From whose school of diplomacy does "seppo" come? I will cheerfully confess to some ignorance of the Oz vernacular but how exactly is my response an indication of this? Is my version of the etymology of "seppo" not correct? I am only going by what Ozzies have told me, since they have so little compunction about coming here and holding forth about our various shortcomings.
I did not say that Oz was not important, I just said that it was not important enough to have its own slur among American bigots, since this would require either great proximity or super-power status. Relatively few Americans were aware of "frog" for the accursed French until recently and even then only because of the influence of Anglophone Canuckistanis. Consider yourselves lucky.
"Freedom fries" by the way, really is a joke, but when we make a joke it suddenly becomes a sign of insecurity even though we are not so insecure as to blame foreigners for all our shortcomings; or to willingly accept their influence then whine about being dominated.
Have a little fun at our expense, if you like, but stop blaming us for your own decisions to drink Budweiser, watch Hollywood movies, or elect officials who cooperate with our policies. It could be, of course, that you are electing officials who watch out for Australian interests and that these usually coincide with America's, but this possibility is lost on those who represent it as a loss of sovereignty and proceed to whine about it.
As for needing you, I would not deny that but it is not the US that lies within fighter range of the world's most populous Muslim country, and Hawaii and Guam are closer to South Korea than Australia is.
We are not the nanny of the world and I, for one, am tired of being scolded as though we are.
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 12:55:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
From whose school of diplomacy does "seppo" come? I will cheerfully confess to some ignorance of the Oz vernacular but how exactly is my response an indication of this? Is my version of the etymology of "seppo" not correct? I am only going by what Ozzies have told me, since they have so little compunction about coming here and holding forth about our various shortcomings.
You were dead on about Seppo, full of shit is right. However I can see by the onslaught of tough talking rhetoric that maybe I hit a raw nerve. Take the quote “Iraq has ... sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” This is a comment that is full of shit. George W Bush is full of shit and an American, therefore a Seppo. Unfortunately you are guilty by association. I also notice that you seem to have little or no compunction about telling us about our shortcomings. We may be small, but we are big enough to realise that we have a few of them. How do we do this? We laugh at ourselves. Try doing the same.
quote:
I did not say that Oz was not important, I just said that it was not important enough to have its own slur among American bigots, since this would require either great proximity or super-power status.
So only a super-power has the right to lay a slur on your great country. Pax America. More shit.
quote:
Relatively few Americans were aware of "frog" for the accursed French until recently and even then only because of the influence of Anglophone Canuckistanis. Consider yourselves lucky.
Your assertion that only a few Americans were aware of the term “frog” only proves the fact that not many of you are prepared to look beyond your own borders. Maybe, just maybe some of the populace should look at the rest of the world for once. If the current Administration studied historic world events, maybe now they wouldn't be repeating the same old mistakes. Heaven forbid someone from so far away has the audacity to make a joke. Again, more shit.
quote:
"Freedom fries" by the way, really is a joke, but when we make a joke it suddenly becomes a sign of insecurity even though we are not so insecure as to blame foreigners for all our shortcomings; or to willingly accept their influence then whine about being dominated.
The domination word again, what is it with you? It seems you are allowed to have fun at the expense of other countries by right of super power status, not the other way around. Not only contradictory, but you guessed it, more shit.
quote:
Have a little fun at our expense, if you like, but stop blaming us for your own decisions to drink Budweiser
No-one here drinks it, we stock it for visiting Americans, that's the kind of thoughtful country we are. Why would we pay 6 dollars at the bar for a bottle of crap beer when we can buy a delicious home grown bottle for $3:50? Only people with more money than sense drink the crap, i.e. Yuppies.
quote:
Watch Hollywood movie |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Julie_Bris
New Member
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 17:43:00 [Permalink]
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Guys first and foremost thanks for the welcome, it's a pleasure to be here.
I hope that I can contribute, by at times throwing “the cat amongst the pigeons” for some interesting debates.
gezzam looks like it will be you and me against the world (USA) – just kidding guys Aussie Aussie Aussie ohj ohj ojh
Tim you're absolutely correct – bigger is better
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not anti American, I just detest the “do as I say not as I do” mentality of their government and it saddens me to say that our government is fast becoming a carbon copy of the Bush Administration.
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My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, racism and arrogance. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2003 : 21:01:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not anti American, I just detest the “do as I say not as I do” mentality of their government and it saddens me to say that our government is fast becoming a carbon copy of the Bush Administration.
Here, here. Exactly the same here. %99.9999 of Americans I have met are great people. As with any group of people there are arseholes, christ you should see some of my mates.....
Jimmy, take a chill pill and don't take the damn thing so personally. It was just a joke. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Julie_Bris
New Member
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2003 : 02:29:22 [Permalink]
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Here is some food for thought
How ironic is it that Bush sent soldiers to their deaths over a word that he can't even pronounce properly? Bush's pronunciation of “nuclear” is NUKILA.
In a previous post, someone referred to Bush as a “dumb ass” well here are some good ol' Aussie terminologies that may describe him just as well.
Not the full quid
A sandwich short of a picnic basket
Half a cent in the dollar
Thick as a brick
As thick as two planks
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My loathings are simple: stupidity, oppression, crime, cruelty, racism and arrogance. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2003 : 06:26:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Julie_Bris
Here is some food for thought
How ironic is it that Bush sent soldiers to their deaths over a word that he can't even pronounce properly? Bush's pronunciation of “nuclear” is NUKILA.
In a previous post, someone referred to Bush as a “dumb ass” well here are some good ol' Aussie terminologies that may describe him just as well.
Not the full quid
A sandwich short of a picnic basket
Half a cent in the dollar
Thick as a brick
As thick as two planks
I can't pronounce the sonofabitch, either, so I've little space to bust Smirky's hump over a little tangled talkin'. But then again, I don't got much of an education, so there's m'excuse.
All snide remarks (deserved and otherwise) aside, this guy has shown himself to be a world-class menace. More and more, I'm thinking that he's not so much stupid as sociopathic, if I've spelled that right. He can see no point of view beyond his own, which by definition is infallable. It looks like he's surrounded by others of similiar ilk, Ashcroft, for an extreme example.
I don't know how this latest ron-de-lay of 'who lied to whom about what' is going to turn out. If I were a prayin' man, I'd be on my knees in a closet (just to be safe. Dealing with gods is a risky business), humbly begging Quetzacoatl for impeachment.
At the moment, I don't think impeachment's gonna happen, although i'm hearing mutterings of it, here and there. I do think that, what with lies, military casualties, and the economy, he'll be hard pressed to get remain in office beyond '04.
We shall see.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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