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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2003 : 11:25:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish:
I'm not saying it's delusional, just that there is no real agreed upon standard of right and wrong. Rightness and wrongness are shade of gray, not black and white.
Yes, well I am not at all fond of the "method of democratic consensus" for making decisions/conclusions; most especially in matters of ethics.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2003 : 16:54:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I must disagree: The very phenomena we see implies the existence of some vast, over-seeing intelligence.
Absurd. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 02:21:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Yes, well I am not at all fond of the "method of democratic consensus" for making decisions/conclusions; most especially in matters of ethics.
I never said I was, either. However, a majority of rational citizens must agree upon the ethics and morals of a society for that society to function. Is the best way, maybe not, is it the best we currently have, possibly. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 14:41:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
I must disagree: The very phenomena we see implies the existence of some vast, over-seeing intelligence.
Absurd.
Blindness to obvious truth is a trademark of an atheist. Congratulations, you've passed the test. "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God." "Wisdom comes from God..."the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisom" |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 15:20:58 [Permalink]
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"Of two competing theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred."
Some geezer called Billy something or other said that once!
Love the way its [the thread] going though!
Come on Computer Org
Come on Trish, Rah, rah, rah,
(If I've inadvertently invoked some old sun god because of that short, unmeasured, outburst, then, please accept my aplogies!!) |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 15:24:57 [Permalink]
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Which truth? Which god?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/04/2003 15:27:36 |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 20:14:06 [Permalink]
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How about no "Truth", no "God". That position seems much simplier than fantastic powerful beings no one has seen, creating the universe, doing all sort of miracles that no one has seen ( I would be really impressed if for my benefit, some god would part the pacific ocean. That would be very impressive), or punishing people for not following one contradictory religious book or another.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 20:53:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Blindness to obvious truth is a trademark of an atheist. Congratulations, you've passed the test. "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God." "Wisdom comes from God..."the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisom"
Obvious truth? What?
Look! No one knows (for sure).
You don't I guarantee.
The 'obvious truth' to an atheist is not seeing any proof or truth if you like that there is a god.
The fact that you in your sarcasm and whoever said that quote about being a fool only shows that you have to resort to name calling when you can't state your case. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2003 : 21:07:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
I have maintained that I am an Atheist because I don't believe any Gods or organized religion. Also, I do not believe that we are any different to any other species on the planet.
Any comments????
LOL, guess I should have read this 1st post before replying to that last one.
There is a point to what that guy at work says but by definition you are correct to call yourself an atheist.
I don't like that he thinks people only say they are atheists just to argue with the religious. Some atheists don't tell people what they think for various reasons, it's very personal.
I really like what you say about not being different than other species. That IS the truth. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2003 : 10:31:15 [Permalink]
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<<The very phenomena we see implies the existence of some vast, over-seeing intelligence. >>
Why is a diety a likely explanation for the phenomena we see? That's an enormous jump of logic. Also, it begs the question as to the mechanisms with which that diety created things. Magic? Divine energy?
Is it possible (and I defer to the biology and astronomy gods and goddesses here who are WAY smarter than I) that the universe simply always existed, and our need to see it as being 'created' is simply an extension (or projection) of the way we humans understand the world? |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2003 : 21:10:17 [Permalink]
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The original point of this question has much merit.
"Can one truly say they are an Atheist?" The answer is, of course, yes, because one does not have to have any sense or reason to say something. To say "in truth" that same thing, well that's a different question entirely. What is truth? Are there any absolute truths? Science and human experience would have to say yes. Our justice system believes there is absolute truth. Who dunn it? There is a crime. It has a perp, a motive, a means, and there is an actual "true" verdict when all the evidence points to one particular perpetrator without question. We know somebody committed the crime. Crimes just don't happen randomly as it seems many other events do. So with crime, it is easier to see that there is a thing called truth. This is also true in daily government and business activities. Someone has a plan, comes up with the money, puts their plan in action, and lo, their name is on the building or the highway, etc. There is a truth as to why these things happen. With some other events it is just not that easy to see. How did this world come about? Why are we here? Why did this person get sick? Why did this person die? These are much more difficult questions to answer. Is there a "true" answer to each of them? Perhaps. But what about another type of question, why did this person recover from cancer? Why was my son's life spared when all his buddies died in Vietnam? Why did I miss that flight where everyone was killed? These types of questions involve extreme situations when something good happened for no apparent reason. The norm is easier to comprehend and come up with a "true" answer, but the abnormal is a different animal. The atheist believes there is no God in the face of extremely abnormal, good events that occur to people in life. The odds of these events occurring are less, many times, than winning the lottery 10 times in a row. The atheist's answer is that it is a chance occurrence. Is it so hard to see why a theist reasons that God has intervened? To believe in the existence of a good God when experiencing extremely good things for yourself or your family, such as noted in the questions above is not at all hard to figure out. The amazing thing, though, is to see and meet people who have experienced extremely difficult and hard circumstances (illnesses, war, deaths in the family, debilitating injuries, poverty, etc.) and who not only believe there is a God but actually trusts in this God and loves Him.
So what is my point? Can a person truly claim there is no God? Does such a person have all the evidence? If they claim to be scientific in their approach, how can they come to such a definite conclusion? If one was to say, I am not sure if there is a God, they would be much more truthful in their reply than the atheist, who claims such absolute certainty.
The theist, on the other hand, who says he believes in God, is certainly more truthful in his reply, right? Not necessarily. To say you believe in God implies certain other beliefs, such as, who God is and what he, she, or it, or them is like. It is implied that you believe that God is the creator of everything. What is your definition of "God"? What does a god do? What are God's abilities? How do they differ from men's abilities? Lots of questions arise when one thinks about God. If one believes "wrongly" about God, is his answer that there is a God a truthful answer? Have you ever heard people say, "If that guy's going to heaven, I don't want to go there." One's personal life/lifestyle is reflected in one's belief or disbelief in God and how they believe, if they believe. I would venture to say that disbelief in God arises more from personal experience and beliefs than actual scientific study to find if there is a god. To even be an atheist, one has had to come to the conclusion of a study of the belief in God. Therefore, one is not born an atheist but becomes an atheist.
This whole issue about God is so very complex that it is an anomaly to write off the existence of God and maintain a "scientific" approach of understanding life. The very answers to the most difficult questions of science may be beyond the natural and physical realm. Because certain things have yet to be discovered does that mean that they do not exist? (hint, hint, Mr. or Mrs. Atheist). When Galileo ventured forth his explanation of the solar system he was mocked and shunned by other scientists, but he was right. Anyway, when we get too simplistic in discussing the existence or non-existence of God, it's just because we don't know as much as we think. So maybe it's better to err on the side of uncertainty when arriving at the conclusion that you are an atheist.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2003 : 21:26:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Because certain things have yet to be discovered does that mean that they do not exist? (hint, hint, Mr. or Mrs. Atheist).
Not at all. Failure to discover the Pixie or the Leprechaun or the Unicorn proves only that, should any or all of these entities exist, they are excedingly hard to find. Failure to discover Kali does not constitute proof against Hinduism, nor is failure to discover the the various members of the Ugaritic Pantheon proof against Canaanite mythology.
I am more than willing to accept that YHWH, Kali, and/or Marduk are every bit as theoretically possible as is Pixie dust, Leprechaun gold, and Unicorn poop. Thanks for sharing.  |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
| Edited by - ConsequentAtheist on 07/05/2003 21:27:34 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 00:07:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
So what is my point? Can a person truly claim there is no God? Does such a person have all the evidence? If they claim to be scientific in their approach, how can they come to such a definite conclusion? If one was to say, I am not sure if there is a God, they would be much more truthful in their reply than the atheist, who claims such absolute certainty.
My brain is very simple, I won't answer all your questions. Here's the bottome line:
I think you are right, yes, one can not truly claim there is no god. Well, I take that back, one can claim it but can one KNOW it, that's the question. So in that sense you are right. However, after thousands of years there is still no proof that there is a god. And each century moves closer to showing that all the things Man once thought about the suppernatural are being scientificly explained. That to me is more proof of no god.
quote:
The theist, on the other hand, who says he believes in God, is certainly more truthful in his reply, right? Not necessarily. To say you believe in God implies certain other beliefs,
No, I think you are correct to say the theist who believes is more truthful. He is true to himself in his belief. But he might not know the truth. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 12:05:02 [Permalink]
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I'm busting this up a bit to get at what Doomar is attempting to say.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
The original point of this question has much merit.
"Can one truly say they are an Atheist?" The answer is, of course, yes, because one does not have to have any sense or reason to say something.
How is there no sense in a person saying they are an atheist when they see no reason to live life with a belief in something that is unknowable? I call myself an atheist because I have seen no cause to believe in an entity that can not be defined nor can be shown to exist. This, to me, is the more honest approach, to claim no knowledge and lacking certain knowledge to neither follow nor worship that which can not be shown to exist.
quote:
To say "in truth" that same thing, well that's a different question entirely. What is truth? Are there any absolute truths?
Mathematically, yes. 2+2=4. That will always hold true. Scientific laws are shown to be true for all tested instances. Will gravitation someday not work and a book dropped 'fall up'? Highly unlikely to a degree where we can say with a fair amount of certainty, it will not happen.
quote:
Science and human experience would have to say yes. Our justice system believes there is absolute truth. Who dunn it? There is a crime. It has a perp, a motive, a means, and there is an actual "true" verdict when all the evidence points to one particular perpetrator without question. We know somebody committed the crime. Crimes just don't happen randomly as it seems many other events do. So with crime, it is easier to see that there is a thing called truth.
Agreed. However, this is why logic dictates that it is necessary to prove the positive, this person commited the crime, rather than the negative, this person did not commit the crime. The negative can not be proven because there is a lack of evidence.
quote:
This is also true in daily government and business activities. Someone has a plan, comes up with the money, puts their plan in action, and lo, their name is on the building or the highway, etc. There is a truth as to why these things happen.
Truth or reason? More a reason than truth. A person worked hard at an idea, therefore something happened involving that person.
quote:
With some other events it is just not that easy to see. How did this world come about? Why are we here? Why did this person get sick? Why did this person die? These are much more difficult questions to answer. Is there a "true" answer to each of them? Perhaps.
These are the questions that science and philosophers attempt to answer. I'm afraid that religion takes an easy answer to these questions and looks no further. It's a mentally lazy approach to life, all things considered.
quote:
But what about another type of question, why did this person recover from cancer? Why was my son's life spared when all his buddies died in Vietnam? Why did I miss that flight where everyone was killed? These types of questions involve extreme situations when something good happened for no apparent reason. The norm is easier to comprehend and come up with a "true" answer, but the abnormal is a different animal.
It's good that your son's buddies died in Viet Nam? How so? The tragedy is greater than the seen good. People are dead. The same with the flight, you missed the flight, is there something special about you that makes it a greater good that you survived when others did not? The tragedy was the loss of life and a selfish, self-centered individual that sees it as good that they didn't die, wasn't on that flight. There is nothing good in these situations, there is only great tragedy. You fail to see the tragedy in needless death.
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The atheist believes there is no God in the face of extremely abnormal, good events that occur to people in life. The odds of these events occurring are less, many times, than winning the lottery 10 times in a row. The atheist's answer is that it is a chance occurrence. Is it so hard to see why a theist reasons that God has intervened? To believe in the existence of a good God when experiencing extremely good things for yourself or your family, such as noted in the questions above is not at all hard to figure out.
Only if you believe in a cruel and capricious god. Why save only one person, when if it were an omnipotent god, it could have saved everyone from death? What the hell made that person so much more important than everyone else? Did god allow all those people to die to prove a point? If so, why didn't god just say his peice and not resort to killing a bunch of people so one person could feel good about themselves because they were spared from death? It's sick to think a god is kind because he killed a bunch a people to spare one persons life.
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The amazing thing, though, is to see and meet people who have experienced extremely difficult and hard circumstances (illnesses, war, deaths in the family, debilitating injuries, poverty, etc.) and who not only believe there is a God but actually trusts in this God and loves Him.
Lets see, was in the Marines during Desert Storm, had to send my 4mo daughter to live with my parents because I didn't know what was going to happen, if I would have to deploy or not. Had my bags packed. My father died of cancer in Nov 2001, he was diagnosed with it on Sept 11, 2001. My mother has MS. I had an uncle die from MD. My left knee is practically gone, especially when the ortho's ask how I'm still walking when they see the MRIs. I lost jobs in Mar 2000, Apr 2001, and Jan 2003. Yet, I see no reason to go looking for a god, nor a reason to believe and trust in a god. I'm the one who's gone out and found my new jobs, I'm the one who's put the effort into survivng these situations. I'm the one who pulled myself out of what are bad situations and survived. No god required.
quote:
So what is my point? Can a person truly claim there is no God? Does such a person have all the evidence? If they claim to be scientific in their approach, how can they come to such a definite conclusion? If one was to say, I am not sure if |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 13:08:50 [Permalink]
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Geez Trish,
I don't know how you made it through that endless paragraph. My eyes began to hurt first. Then I noticed that I was not absorbing the words because I was so distracted by the style. My hat's off to
you.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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