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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2003 : 21:28:12
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All of us are on a journey through life. We will die some day. But this fact is not enough for most of us. We want to know why. This thirst for understanding has led each of us to look for answers. Some of you believe you've found the answer, some are not so sure, some are still looking, some are trying to share what they've discovered with others. WHERE ARE YOU NOW AND HOW DID YOU GET THERE? If you'd like to share your story to date (revised/edited version) here's a chance. In telling your tale, please answer specificly if you believe or not in God and and to what extent this belief affects your life. Which direction are you going from your current belief; towards more faith or less faith more doubt, or less?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2003 : 23:16:16 [Permalink]
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There are, of course, assumptions in your questions which are not shared by many. Specifically: the God-with-a-capital-G you refer to. From reading your posts, I know precisely which God you speak of, but others may not.
To completely and purposefully hijack your thread, however, I've got to ask: why is it that "we will die someday" is "not enough for most of us"? And who the heck decided who "most of us" is, and even who "us" is?
Certainly, knowing that I will die someday isn't enough for me to get along on a daily basis, and, although I'm not sure, I don't think it's enough for anyone else, either. What you're really asking about is what one thinks is one's "purpose" in life, but you're trying to be clever and not ask such a loaded question outright.
Well, I can tell you that my life has plenty of purpose in it, and not one bit of effort is going towards worshipping the mythical being that you consider to be God-with-a-capital-G, or any other mythical God, for that matter. I have goals - for myself, my family, my friends, and (if I can manage it) the whole world - which, if realized, will satisfy me very well. The larger-scale goals may please a bunch of other people, as well. If I'm successful, that's good enough for me, and whatever your God might think about it, good or bad, I couldn't care less.
Because I'm not doing squat for Him, I'm doing things because I think they're right.
To answer your other questions, I went to Sunday school, and church, and performed the stand-up/kneel-down calethenics required of me in those activities as a kid in order to please my parents, and nothing more. I don't remember ever believing in your God as an actual reality, though I've granted for years that He might possibly exist, as much as anything else a person might imagine could possibly exist, somewhere in the vastness of this universe.
If He does exist, in a New Testament sort of way, I'm doomed to the Pit of Fire, for nothing but my incredulity about the story of Christ's death and resurrection. The other sins I've committed are nothing in the face of that disbelief. If your God exists in an Old Testament fashion, though, I've got hope that my actions will reveal my basic goodness, and I'll get a pass into Paradise. If your God doesn't exist at all, then all bets are off, and I'll do whatever the hell I think is right, as I've been doing for years now.
My "thirst for understanding" has led me to believe that anyone who tries to coerce me to believe in a particular something is probably wrong. And threats of eternal damnation are nothing but forceful coercion, as would be obvious to "most of us" if we'd bother to critically examine the situation.
Finally, the idea that the whole question revolves around a faith/doubt dichotomy is simply wrong: in my case, and (I would bet) many others here, it's a choice between blind obedience and reasoned conclusion. After all, if the options are "believe in God or burn in Hell," it's obvious that critical thinking and even "common sense" (what there is of it) don't have a place in the world at all.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 00:25:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
WHERE ARE YOU NOW AND HOW DID YOU GET THERE? If you'd like to share your story to date (revised/edited version) here's a chance. In telling your tale, please answer specificly if you believe or not in God and and to what extent this belief affects your life. Which direction are you going from your current belief; towards more faith or less faith more doubt, or less?
Oh goody! You are talking to the most egotistical meglamaneiack, I love to talk about myself. Thanks for the chance.
I am in Los Angeles, I was born here.
'It's been a long strange trip' kind of explains my story to date.
I do not nor have ever been a member of the group who believes in a god. It used to cause me to be angry about believers and how insecure and stupid they were to believe in a myth but lately I've been meeting some nice people who are religious and since they don't bother me I don't bother them in our opinions of how or why the way the world around us works so we remain friends. Don't ask, don't talk perhaps is a good policy.
I doubt I'll ever change what I think. Unless a suppernatural being came down....or up from a space ship or thin air, whatever, and did something to prove he or it is from an other world. Randi would have to be there to show me if there was a trick of magic involved. |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 03:10:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Doomar
quote:
All of us are on a journey through life. We will die some day. But this fact is not enough for most of us. We want to know why.
You mean the reason why we die, what causes it? Or if there's a point to it, a higher meaning? It's just the way it is that we can not live forever.
quote:
This thirst for understanding has led each of us to look for answers. Some of you believe you've found the answer, some are not so sure, some are still looking, some are trying to share what they've discovered with others. WHERE ARE YOU NOW AND HOW DID YOU GET THERE? If you'd like to share your story to date (revised/edited version) here's a chance. In telling your tale, please answer specificly if you believe or not in God and and to what extent this belief affects your life. Which direction are you going from your current belief; towards more faith or less faith more doubt, or less?
I do not believe in any of the gods or goddesses offered by the religions. I try to be skeptical. It's important to know what we know and what we don't know, and not compensate the lack of understanding with something that someone has come up with, just because it happens to feel good. If I want to feel good, there are other things to do. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 05:56:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
In telling your tale, please answer specificly if you believe or not in God ...
What might warrant such a belief? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 06:56:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
In telling your tale, please answer specificly if you believe or not in God ...
What might warrant such a belief?
Maybe some experience with God. How 'bout being healed miraculously of a disease? Do you think seeing your old friend who was a leper suddenly running around well proclaiming Jesus healed him could have had an effect? Maybe seeing the local blind beggar, blind from birth, suddenly seeing and telling how Jesus put mud on his eyes and told him to go wash it off and then he began to see. Perhaps an awakening of your conscience that used to be dead to the belief of such things. Maybe just an illumination in your heart and mind. Your study of nature? Finding forgiveness for your sins? Perhaps it is a gift given to the humble or humbled. Lots of things can warrant such belief. Perhaps a turning of the question would be in order: what could warrant such unbelief or lack of belief? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 09:43:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar:Perhaps a turning of the question would be in order: what could warrant such unbelief or lack of belief (in God)?
Could it be the complete lack of evidence for such beings? To a skeptic, lack of evidence is no small thing when presented with a claim. Beyond anecdotes from those who have faith, there is nothing.
Faith would not be a requirement for belief if evidence to support a god hypothesis existed.
Without evidence as a requirement to support a claim, any belief in the supernatural is possible and all claims would be equal in value. All may be true, all may be false, and there would be no way to sort that out. Why would your belief carry any more weight than another belief?
People of faith have lots of company. Of course, there is little agreement between those who adhere to the teachings of one particular sect, cult or religion and a competing sect, cult or religion. There is a lot of rejection going on even among people of faith. So, why ask us "what could warrant such unbelief" when you are rejecting so many beliefs yourself?
Try this. Read your words and imagine that you are a skeptic. Imagine that you have some criteria for what constitutes good evidence, and that anecdotes do no count since every one of every faith has them. Can you still find no reason why we might doubt the god hypothesis? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Darwin Storm
Skeptic Friend
87 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 10:34:08 [Permalink]
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| As a child I was taken to church regularly. Even as a child I could see mistakes and contradicitions in the bible, but didn't really what to do about it. As I got older, it became quite obvious to me that there was no tangable physical evidence for the existance of god, or any god, for that matter. Everytime I asked someone why they though he or she believed in god, I got the " I can feel ...", or some other emotional reason, which is no reason at all, at least in scientific terms. I basically shrugged my shoulders, and around age of 12, I came to a fairly adament conclusion that there is no evidence for a god, and therefore, religion is an exercise in self-dillusion. I allow for the possibility that such a being may exist, the same I allow for the possibility there may be large pink bunnies who go around devouring suns. It may be possible, but highly unlikely. I also came to the conlusion that the bible was about as truthful as greek mythology. Both have good story, but most of it is just entertaining fiction. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 12:21:15 [Permalink]
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I'm in agreement with Dave W. and Kil. When you follow one set faith, you reject every other faith in existence. Why do you reject the others and accept yours? Technically I suppose I reject one more faith than you.
You also seem entirely certain that everyone has 'sinned'. The concept of sin builds faith around a guilt complex, enforcing the idea that one must confess to the church. What exactly is 'sin' anyway. I understand actions and consequences, here and now, but not this sin that church seems to perpetuate to keep the sheep in line. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 15:19:32 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm not sure if anybody really cares about why I think the way I do (or should care, for that matter). But I can tell you this: one good way to learn about religion is to grow up as the son of a Protestant minister. Needless to say I spent a lot of time in and around the church.
Now, don't get me wrong -- I love my Dad and respect him. But for the life of me I don't see how an intelligent man could devote his life to serving the "invisible man in the sky". All I can figure out is that his main goal was to help his fellow human beings (in the form of his parishoners, and later as a hospital chaplain).
Still, it was done in the name of faith in a mythological figure. I can't understand why Jesus (as a god figure) should demand any more attention or belief than, say, Baal or Quetzalcoatl.
My ethics and morality are probably pretty close to those of my father. That's not surprising, since I grew up in the same culture (albeit a generation later than he did). For a while (after I realized I didn't and couldn't share his faith) it bothered me that I had no religious "foundation" for that morality. Finally I came to understand that, throughout history, most people got along fine by practicing the simplest philosophy of all -- treat others as you'd like to be treated (a concept that predates Christianity by eons). Most of those people weren't Jesus followers, but they led just as mature and reasonable ethical lives as we do.
As for the afterlife -- [insert eyeroll smiley here]. If there's one kind of 'ist' I am, it's 'materialist'. There is no "soul", only mind -- and that's instantiated in the brain. Medical science has made that clear enough. Keep your mystical, mythical afterlife. It sounds endlessly boring.
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-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 17:30:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Maybe some experience with God. How 'bout being healed miraculously of a disease?
You mean like in the Ganges? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 20:07:56 [Permalink]
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O.K., I'll bite. Here's a little essay I posted recently on the board of the Ontario Skeptics Society for Critical Inquiry, at www.skeptics.ca
It's titled (rather provocatively for a skeptic);
Why I am Religious
It took me a long time to get used to calling myself an atheist. It took me less time to become uncomfortable with it. And even less to call myself religious.
You see, I don't like the word ‘atheist' for a few reasons. It seems to presuppose that there is a god that I choose not to believe in. It implies that theism is normal, and I am somehow different. It is also a very negative term, describing me in terms of something I don't believe in, rather than expressing what my actual philosophical outlook is. It's as if Christians were constantly referred to as non-Muslim, non-Pagan,, non-Jew, non-Buddhist…, well I think you get the idea. It's not quite insulting, but definitely grating on ones nerves.
I accept and use the word atheist nevertheless, because it is the word that most people think they understand. It saves a lot of long-winded explanations when somebody knocks on my door on a Saturday morning, or when one of those impeccably groomed kids with the black name tag accosts me at a bus shelter.
Why do I say it's the word that ‘most people think they understand'? Well we all know there are various misconceptions about atheism and atheists, but one that really concerns me is the idea that atheism denies the existence of a supernatural force. I don't think it does. Individual atheists may deny the existence of a god if they wish; that is their free speech right. But atheism as a philosophy, at least as I see it, simply says that the universe is explainable and understandable (knowable, if you will), in strictly scientific terms, with absolutely no need to introduce a god, gods, or any supernatural influence. In other words, we do not even invoke the concept in order to deny it. Some may see this as a subtle point, but I think it is an important one.
So where does my religion come in? Simple. I've come to the realisation that my personal outlook and worldview does everything that religion does for others. It provides me with clues and explanations about the world and my place in it. It brings me a measure of peace and fellowship. It makes me happy.
I am a Naturalist. Most people think that implies someone with binoculars around their neck and pockets stuffed with field guides. That describes me too, but Naturalism is the philosophy upon which my entire life is based, and it influences almost every decision I make.
Is Naturalism a religion? I think so. If when you say ‘religion' you mean a belief in the supernatural then I'm definitely an atheist, but if you mean something around which your relationship to the world is based then I am as religious as the Pope or the Dalai Lama.
Some will say that this misuses the word ‘religion'. To my mind, the word has little meaning unless it is qualified in some way. It is exactly the same as the word ‘hair'. We all have hair, so it doesn't tell us much. Give me colour, style, length, or texture, and suddenly the word takes on a lot more meaning.
Calling my Naturalism a religion also avoids another argument. I've often been told ‘Oh, you're religious, you just don't realise it.' Normally it's meant to get me going. Now, when someone asks my religion I can simply smile and say ‘Naturalist'.
It doesn't prevent explanations entirely, but those who would claim I am really religious have one less thing to try to tweak me with, and they are then in the position of trying to prove I am not religious.
Confuses the heck out of them! |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 20:23:11 [Permalink]
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My story is simple enough: My family, for the most part, is agnostic. I never got much of a religious indoctrination, although an uncle and aunt, belivers, used to grab my brother and myself, and haul us off to services, now and again. And, in the '40s and '50s, we got hit with a fair amount of it in school.
Curiosity has caused me to read the Bible a couple of times. It's a wonderful poem and something of an historic document. I'm thinking of reading it again. It's been a long time. I especally liked Revelations, and Genesis is a yarn that any sailor would work hard to spin.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 21:49:33 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
Finding forgiveness for your sins?
To do so, I go up to the person I've wronged and say, "I'm sorry." The idea of being forgiven in any other way - by a mythical god, for example - is wholly unsatisfying to me. Perhaps to people who are too scared to admit they've wronged another person, being forgiven by Christ is the only way for their shallow little minds to feel at ease? I couldn't say for sure.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2003 : 22:31:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
All of us are on a journey through life. We will die some day. But this fact is not enough for most of us. We want to know why. This thirst for understanding has led each of us to look for answers. Some of you believe you've found the answer, some are not so sure, some are still looking, some are trying to share what they've discovered with others. WHERE ARE YOU NOW AND HOW DID YOU GET THERE? If you'd like to share your story to date (revised/edited version) here's a chance. In telling your tale, please answer specificly if you believe or not in God and and to what extent this belief affects your life. Which direction are you going from your current belief; towards more faith or less faith more doubt, or less?
I was brought up an Episcopalian. My mother chose this sect because (a) she had been hired as a teacher in an Episcopal elementary school and (b) as she put it, "Episcopalians smoke, drink, and screw." I was deeply religious as a child, but realized that religion was bunk by age 12 and have never looked back. My mother quit the church the day she retired. My father had never even faked being religious.
I do not believe in the existence of any god whatsoever. I am where I am, and I got here under my own power. There is no answer to the question "Why am I here?" because I was not put here by anyone or anything for any purpose.
-- Henry
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- TW
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 09:36:31 [Permalink]
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Raised Catholic. Altar boy (unmolested). Found the dogma unsupportable. Questioned Christianity and found it similarly unsupportable. Questioned all religions and found them unsupportable. Moved on to the big question and found belief in supernatural beings unsupportable.
The one thing all religions have in common is the promise of life after death. It can be as amorphous as Buddism or as specific as the LDS assurance that (if male) you'll receive your own planet to rule over, but the message is always the same; something like a "soul" will survive the death of your body. This belief is the "product" religion has to sell, and the goal of each religion is to convince you that by following their rituals and dogma, you will maximize your chances of pleasing some supernatural being (rather like selling laundry detergent, "Tide gets clothes whiter!"). Unlike most businesses, however, not only can one religion not prove that it provides a better product than another, it cannot prove it even has a product ("You simply have to believe in our laundry detergent and then it's ability to get clothes cleaner than other laundry detergents will be obvious"). This is the beauty of religion; the promise of the ultimate product without the burden of proving it can actually deliver. It sells well simply because people desparately want to believe the product exists.
Tom
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