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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 07/07/2003 : 09:50:13 [Permalink]
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| Started out as an atheist as a baby. Wanted to be a minister as a child. Went back and forth trying different stuff until coming back to full atheism and skepticism in my 40's. Am still an ordained minister -Universal Life Church of Modesto California - get yours free online. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 15:34:33 [Permalink]
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Brought up as Catholic, attended a single sex 'De La Salle' Order of Catholic Brothers High school. Heavily involved with the church, holding senior (kids) positions in the Choir and on the altar. Never truly believed in god, more feared the threat of him, if that makes sense to you guys. I mean this fella can see everything, when you're a twelve yr old boy, you don't want him watching everything you do!
The clincher(s) for me was when one our class mates had his head bashed against a 1.5"-2" plywood, blackboard, once for each beatitude (see: The Beatitudes) he failed to recite!! I dunno, I just thought the act epitomised the hatred and violence that runs deep in the church's history and it seemed, well, un-godly!
Another occasion was when I was getting repeatedly ejected from Religion classes. I'd just read Carl Sagan's, The Cosmos. I had LOTS and I mean LOTS of questions, but, each time I posed one, I was asked to leave the class if I couldn't contribute constructively. I pleaded that it was constructive, simply because the answers should reinforce our faith. I got suspended for a week!
I've never really been comfortable with atheist, certainly not agnostic, and so I've struggled to describe myself as I felt. When I saw this...
quote:
The Rat said
"..the universe is explainable and understandable (knowable, if you will), in strictly scientific terms, with absolutely no need to introduce a god, gods, or any supernatural influence. In other words, we do not even invoke the concept in order to deny it. .."
It describes what I've been trying to perfectly. Although If you are hinting toward 'tree hugging and the like, Rat. Then that's where we differ!!
quote:
The Rat said:
I am a Naturalist. Most people think that implies someone...
That runs about the place starkers?
quote:
Gorgo said:
Am still an ordained minister -Universal Life Church of Modesto California - get yours free online.
Me too! Rev Dean, thats what i put on me christmas cards, winds me mum up a teat!!
here's the link: get ordained
Edited 'cause I can't type  |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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| Edited by - welshdean on 07/07/2003 15:39:18 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 20:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by TG
The one thing all religions have in common is the promise of life after death. It can be as amorphous as Buddism or as specific as the LDS ....... This belief is the "product" religion has to sell, and the goal of each religion is to convince you that by following their rituals and dogma, you will maximize your chances of pleasing some supernatural being
May I take execption to one of your points?
Not sure why you call Buddhism amorphous, it has very basic and simple ideals.
And since there is no supernatural being there is no one to please. When one follows the 'rules' he is only doing so for himself. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 20:47:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Started out as an atheist as a baby. Wanted to be a minister as a child. Went back and forth trying different stuff until coming back to full atheism and skepticism in my 40's. Am still an ordained minister -Universal Life Church of Modesto California - get yours free online.
I was in Modesto not long ago, I feel so blessed now. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2003 : 20:59:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by welshdean
Never truly believed in god, more feared the threat of him, if that makes sense to you guys. I mean this fella can see everything, when you're a twelve yr old boy, you don't want him watching everything you do!
That reminds me of something my mother once told me. It seemed so strange but maybe you or someone can tell me if it's true.
My mother for a short time as a little girl in Canada went to a Catholic school because there was no other around in the country side where she was living. She told me the nuns shower with a towel around them so god couldn't see them. Weird, huh? 'Cause, if he can see through the shower walls, couldn't he see through the towel?
Plus, how clean can you get while putting soap over a towel?
Questions that must be answered! |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 05:48:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by welshdean
It describes what I've been trying to perfectly. Although If you are hinting toward 'tree hugging and the like, Rat. Then that's where we differ!!
I am fairly militant about it. My core belief is that the environment is the most important issue in the world simply because it is the world; without it, we're dead. But I'm no luddite, I think PETA are nutcases who give environmentalism a bad name, and I enjoy fishing.
quote:
The Rat said:
I am a Naturalist. Most people think that implies someone...
That runs about the place starkers?
No, that's a 'naturist'. Describes my sister. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 09:02:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
All of us are on a journey through life. We will die some day. But this fact is not enough for most of us. We want to know why. This thirst for understanding has led each of us to look for answers. Some of you believe you've found the answer, some are not so sure, some are still looking, some are trying to share what they've discovered with others. WHERE ARE YOU NOW AND HOW DID YOU GET THERE? If you'd like to share your story to date (revised/edited version) here's a chance. In telling your tale, please answer specificly if you believe or not in God and and to what extent this belief affects your life. Which direction are you going from your current belief; towards more faith or less faith more doubt, or less?
Where am I now? At work.
How did I get there? Train to bus.
:)
Seriously, I am a theist. (Garnerian Eclectic Wiccan to be exact.) My current belief is solid. There are some aspects which are under review concerning theologic constructs. Since I hold seperate science and theology, there is no evidence that counters my belief that an intelligent power greater than myself and unmeasurable in scope exists. Since my religion makes no reference to the genesis of the universe, there are no incompatabilities with current or future cosmological theory.
I started off as a Presybterian. I started actually reading the Bible for myself and tried to tie the conceopts within to the sermons of the preachers. There was a major disconnect and I began searching for answers. Getting the standard "don't question faith" lines, I had to reject the trappings of the Christian church. I then began seeking out other religions to investigate the depth of error within dogma impressed into me. I discovered a underlying theme to most organized religions. During this search, I stumble upon Wicca. The tenets and actions of the practioners seemed the most right for me and the religion has a ceremonial aspect which fulfilled my need for mysticism and spiritual focus. There are some anectdotal stories I could share that were highly emotionally charged at the time which further convinced me that I was on the right track for myself, but they have no scientific relevance.
The affect upon my life is one of moral guidance and how it shapes my actions. It doesn't make me better, it makes me an individual. Just like everyone else on this board.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2003 : 09:40:22 [Permalink]
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I did too. People will buy just about anything.
quote:
I discovered a underlying theme to most organized religions.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/09/2003 11:31:51 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 00:09:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
The affect upon my life is one of moral guidance and how it shapes my actions. It doesn't make me better, it makes me an individual. Just like everyone else on this board.
Wow, Val. Perhaps I've missed something in your previous posts(keep in mind I don't read every post and there are many folders I've never read due to lack of time and interest), but I never would have thought that of you. That was interesting.
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 03:50:02 [Permalink]
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I, for one, would like to welcome you back, Doomar. It appears that our theists are beginning to drift back after the long absence since the war in Iraq began. I enjoy the counterpoint.
Anyway, Doomar, I don't quite understand your reasons for opening this topic. I believe, most of the members of this group are ‘skeptical' about ‘God' primarily because of the profound lack of physical evidence for ‘His' existence, and the deficiency of logical reasons for blind faith.
Most of us were raised in Western democracies where Christianity is the most popular belief system, so we have all mostly had experience with its' dogma. However, if your intent is to find malice or ambivalence toward Christianity among those that post here, I do not think that you will find it.
For me, personally, I attended Sunday school and Church services as a child. I was taught the Bible--I was taught what to read, how to read it, and what to believe about its' meaning and significance in life. I found the stories amazing, brutal, and often hypocritical, even as a child. Besides, football was more fun.
Later, as a 'rebellious' teenager, I discovered girls. One in particular caught my interest in the ninth grade. She belonged to the local ‘Jesus Freak' clique. She belonged to a musical group in Nashville called “Sing Out South.” So, I studied the Bible and learned music to impress her. Well, it didn't work!
I did, however, discover an interest in things more mystical. I went on to bigger and better things. The likes of Carlos Castaneda, Timothy Leary and the Merry Pranksters opened my eyes to a whole new consciousness. As a matter of fact, one clear night while riding in the passenger seat of an old sixty something Galaxy down I-24 near Murfreesboro, and in the spirit of Window Pane, I saw the face of god! And, you know what? He looked a lot like the Zig Zag man!
My journey into the world of the supernatural had ended. I had become a skeptic, even though I didn't yet know what one was. (That took about ten more years). Fortunately, I can thank that attractive young lady in the Christian singing group for my love of music.
Posted by Valiant Dancerquote:
Seriously, I am a theist. (Garnerian Eclectic Wiccan to be exact.)
Wicca--Is there a more misunderstood belief system?
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 12:04:05 [Permalink]
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I was raised in an Agnostic family. My parents are from Germany, my Dad was supposed to be Lutheran and my mums parents were Templer's. Mum was actually born in Palestine before WWII, but that's a different (but interesting) story.
I volunteered to go to Sunday school at a young age, that is when my skepticism of religion started. Even in my early teens the whole thing didn't seem to make much sense. As I got older, I read the Bible cover to cover and began to question its content. Came to the conclusion that it was a great fable, but not too much concrete in it. I suppose the only God I kind of believe in is Huey, the mythical god of Surfers (Kil might have heard of him). He tends to put you in your place is you get a little over confident in the ocean, introducing you to the sea floor in no uncertain terms.
In my early twenties I actually sought God out. After playing in a heavy metal band for 5 years, attempting to juggle late nights playing gigs and going to work early in the morning, I had developed, shall we say, a slight hard drug problem and I had come to some kind of crossroads. I looked out for the big guy upstairs, asked questions of those that pertained to know Him. No help from any of the bastards. Holier than thou people tend to look down at a dishevelled guy in a Metallica T-Shirt. Anyway, there was no help from that quarter, so I dug my self out of the hole that I had got my self into. I'm fucking proud of myself for doing it all alone as well.
I think it was from that moment on I decided that I was an Atheist. I realised that I alone have to be responsible for my actions. We make decisions in life, some good, some bad, but ultimately you can't palm off any of the blame something else when it suits you.
I got married in a garden near the beach and a Justice of the Peace did the wedding ceremony. I don't need no stinkin' God just like I don't need some Reverend Lovejoy look-alike telling me when I am bad or that I have sinned. I know when I've done that. I feel guilty and it's called a conscience.
Edited because my grammar is terrible |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 07/10/2003 12:07:58 |
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Sanity
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 14:33:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
We will die some day. But this fact is not enough for most of us. We want to know why.
The naturalist answer to this question is more reassuring than the Christian answer. The Christian answer is: "We die because two people who lived over 4,000 years ago disobeyed God." Our death is then punishment for what someone else did.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
WHERE ARE YOU NOW AND HOW DID YOU GET THERE?
I was born and raised in a Christian family. I was devoutly religious throughout most of my life. Through the decades I began to see the dichotomy between reality and the definition of the Christian God and his promises. I also learned more and more about science. I came to see the problem with the idea of the physical and the non-physical (supernatural) interacting.
As a result, I am a skeptic and an atheist. This doesn't mean I deny the existence of deities or even of the supernatural. It merely means that I have tabled belief in such until valid evidence is presented for their existence. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 23:31:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanity
This doesn't mean I deny the existence of deities or even of the supernatural. It merely means that I have tabled belief in such until valid evidence is presented for their existence.
That's kind of how I think but for myself would add I don't expect to ever see such evidence. Which is why I call myself an atheist not an agnostic. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2003 : 23:45:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Later, as a 'rebellious' teenager, I discovered girls. One in particular caught my interest in the ninth grade. She belonged to the local ‘Jesus Freak' clique. She belonged to a musical group in Nashville called “Sing Out South.” So, I studied the Bible and learned music to impress her. Well, it didn't work!
LOL, for me it was a guy in Jr. High school who liked to draw monsters in his notebook, that's one reason I started liking horror and sci-fi stuff. It didn't work for me either but I still like Sci-fi.
quote:
I can thank that attractive young lady in the Christian singing group for my love of music.
Hum! I hate to burst your bubble but IMO music is something that it doesn't take much to appreciate. There's so much of it everywhere, all kinds. I would think anyone would just love it on their own. But ok!
quote:
Wicca--Is there a more misunderstood belief system?
I think the most misunderstood thing about it is that it's not an ancient mystical belief but a fairly new group formed in the last couple of hundred years, somewhat, IMO in the order of Scientology. |
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Sanity
New Member
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2003 : 11:22:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
That's kind of how I think but for myself would add I don't expect to ever see such evidence. Which is why I call myself an atheist not an agnostic.
Likewise.
quote:
Originally posted by Snake
I started liking horror and sci-fi stuff. It didn't work for me either but I still like Sci-fi.
I still like horror and and sci-fi (mostly fantasy). Strange how that works. I've found that many skeptics, agnostics, and atheists were weaned on sci-fi, fantasy, or both. Some seem to have learned rational thinking from this, at least in part. They learned to tell the difference between fantasy and wishful thinking and reality. Others never do seem to learn the difference.
How anyone could read Isaac Isimov and not ultimately learn these things is a puzzle to me.
Many would call me a failure as a mother. I encouraged my son not only to look up the answers to his questions in the "vast" reference library we had in our home, but to read sci-fi. D&D was welcome in our home. So were computer games. And I called myself a good Christian. Hah! Needless to say, my son didn't grow up to be a good little Christian. He saw it for what it was decades before I did.
See what happens when you teach your kids science and critical thinking? It's no wonder these folks don't want their kids exposed to real science in school. They might just learn to think. Can't have that, now can we?
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