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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2003 : 21:24:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Here's a direct version of the question. Would you hire someone based primarily on race even if a more qualified candidate of a non-preferred race had applied?
I might. It would depend on several variables. I don't like the idea of having to follow a set of rules put forth by the government without any leaway for the 'human factor'.
quote:
And modern medicine is a work in progress. Without asking about race, which 54 discourages, then the doctor would have to depend on the patient to inform them of their race. Consults are done without the patients presence, without race tracked, which 54 makes illegal in some cases, the provider is denied basic diagnostic information.
There are exclusions in prop. 54. It seems simple. Medical exceptions are written in.
I noticed that on the anti 54 site the 1st medical situation they mentioned is breast cancer. Scare tactics!
1st of all while there are difference between the %age of whites and blacks who get it, it's not that big a difference that a doctor wouldn't check into it or warn a person about it. No mater what race they are. In other words, everyone should be alert to it, race is not an issue. So if they lie or twist the facts about that, I have to wonder what else they are trying to do.
All the ballot mesures that I can ever remember use that ploy. It's really too bad everyone has to use 1/2 truths to try to make a point and scare people. |
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Deborah
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2003 : 10:33:51 [Permalink]
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No on 54! I'm against it. Statistics on race...and other data.....helps us identify patterns and we need to understand the patterns, good and bad, in order to make improvements. Sometimes, data can be manipulated and misused; however, I believe the good that comes from the use of this data far outweighs the bad.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2003 : 15:56:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Deborah
No on 54! I'm against it. Statistics on race...and other data.....helps us identify patterns and we need to understand the patterns, good and bad, in order to make improvements. Sometimes, data can be manipulated and misused; however, I believe the good that comes from the use of this data far outweighs the bad.
No one is going to stop anyone (execpt the government, with exceptions) from collecting data. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2003 : 16:18:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Deborah
Statistics on race...and other data.....helps us identify patterns and we need to understand the patterns, good and bad, in order to make improvements.
Here's an example...schools. Since that has a lot to do with race, I guess!
Bussing was wrong. If students in the 'inner city' were not getting good grades and those students just happen to be a minority, mixing them around to other schools was not the answer.
So what if they were black, green or purple. Fix the school, don't move the kids. Identify the area, not the race. Or at least give the parents the choice to take their kids to other schools, don't pack them on busses wasting 2 hours a day when the money could be put into the school itself.
If you are going to use medical as an example, that's not a part of 54, but why does the government have to be involved with that anyway. Private companies are the ones who do a lot of that work. Research for drugs, etc. I'm in a medical experiment right now that is being done through the University of Southern California. I'll have to ask if the government is funding it. LOL, perhaps I should before I post this.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2003 : 08:20:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Deborah
No on 54! I'm against it. Statistics on race...and other data.....helps us identify patterns and we need to understand the patterns, good and bad, in order to make improvements. Sometimes, data can be manipulated and misused; however, I believe the good that comes from the use of this data far outweighs the bad.
No one is going to stop anyone (execpt the government, with exceptions) from collecting data.
Privacy Act of 1976 and HIPAA prevent outside organizations from getting information from employers. If the government doesn't track it, no one else will be able to. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2003 : 08:47:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Here's a direct version of the question. Would you hire someone based primarily on race even if a more qualified candidate of a non-preferred race had applied?
I might. It would depend on several variables. I don't like the idea of having to follow a set of rules put forth by the government without any leaway for the 'human factor'.
quote:
And modern medicine is a work in progress. Without asking about race, which 54 discourages, then the doctor would have to depend on the patient to inform them of their race. Consults are done without the patients presence, without race tracked, which 54 makes illegal in some cases, the provider is denied basic diagnostic information.
There are exclusions in prop. 54. It seems simple. Medical exceptions are written in.
I noticed that on the anti 54 site the 1st medical situation they mentioned is breast cancer. Scare tactics!
1st of all while there are difference between the %age of whites and blacks who get it, it's not that big a difference that a doctor wouldn't check into it or warn a person about it. No mater what race they are. In other words, everyone should be alert to it, race is not an issue. So if they lie or twist the facts about that, I have to wonder what else they are trying to do.
All the ballot mesures that I can ever remember use that ploy. It's really too bad everyone has to use 1/2 truths to try to make a point and scare people.
I appreciate your honesty. You acknowledge that race could be a primary determining factor for hiring for you. It is the prevalence of this kind of behavior which makes 54 a very bad idea. I am assuming by "several factors" that the bar for non-preferred races in your thinking would be much higher than preferred races to make grade. You have a core set of criteria that defines who would be good for that position. These criteria are not modified by race. The bad part is that you do not realize that it is a racist ideal that would be determining who gets hired. While not the "race war" KKK ideal, the attitude of "I don't hate minorities, I just don't want to work with them" is a racist position. When used by a majority of employers, this places minorities in a severely economically handicapped class based on race. There is leeway for the human factor, but it cannot be due primarily to race.
Misrepresentation is why I didn't use the anti-54 site. I used the text of 54 to determine that consults were covered in non-reporting. Only the provider may ask and they may not pass on that information to the consulting physician. Secondly, there are large percentage differences with other medical conditions which are mentioned to members of disproportionately affected races such as Tay Sachs.
http://www.ntsad.org/pages/t-sachs.htm
It also removes the ability for the government to be able to detect racial baises in hiring. Outside organizations cannot compel reporting from businesses nor are businesses allowed to comply with reporting to non-governmental agencies through HIPAA and the Privacy Act of 1976. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2003 : 21:10:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I appreciate your honesty. You acknowledge that race could be a primary determining factor for hiring for you. It is the prevalence of this kind of behavior which makes 54 a very bad idea. I am assuming by "several factors" that the bar for non-preferred races in your thinking would be much higher than preferred races to make grade.
No. The 'bar' can stay anywhere it wants, the skills or whatever is being measured might not even be a main factor.
I'm thinking, personality. How well can I as employer communicate with someone. I am a racist, I think Asian are more intelligent than others, I also feel more comfortable with them. If for example one white person with better skills came to me with a job and also an Asian not quite as qualified, I would lean toward the Asian. People tend to stick with who they know. The white could sue me, right?
Then I would have been right. See! The white person only thinks of suing instead of looking for another job. That's someone who is difficult to get along with. The job shouldn't be an unfriendly place.
quote:
You have a core set of criteria that defines who would be good for that position. These criteria are not modified by race. The bad part is that you do not realize that it is a racist ideal that would be determining who gets hired. While not the "race war" KKK ideal, the attitude of "I don't hate minorities, I just don't want to work with them" is a racist position. When used by a majority of employers, this places minorities in a severely economically handicapped class based on race. There is leeway for the human factor, but it cannot be due primarily to race.
As I said people do stay with what they are familiar with. I think any race does it. I also don't think anything is wrong with it either. So if everyone does it then a black owned business, Asian, who ever, can hire who they want. Then that's makes it fair. They each hire their own.
quote:
Only the provider may ask and they may not pass on that information to the consulting physician. Secondly, there are large percentage differences with other medical conditions which are mentioned to members of disproportionately affected races such as Tay Sachs.
Nonsense! When someone goes to a doctor if they feel sick, they doctor and the person are the ones who need to know what's wrong. I stil don't understand why statistics have to be kept. But it's not a problem with 54 anyway.
What do you do with halfies, BTW? My kids are halfies and many of the kids they went to school with are too. They can choose what they want to put on whatever survey or form. So then, what good are those records that everybody is keeping?
My daughter went to school with a girl who had a black father and a white mother, Jewish I think. What if that girl puts black on any forms...how will they know she could be a carrier of some desease on her mothers side? Dividing people into races now days is useless in many cases.
quote:
It also removes the ability for the government to be able to detect racial baises in hiring. Outside organizations cannot compel reporting from businesses nor are businesses allowed to comply with reporting to non-governmental agencies through HIPAA and the Privacy Act of 1976.
Again, I don't see the need to make everything equal.
My solution is education. If kids from an early age were taught skills, how to study, etc., they could make their own way in the world. They wouldn't need to be on a list or need assistance. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2003 : 22:22:26 [Permalink]
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Proposition 54 cannot create racial privacy. Your skin and facial features, and sometimes your accent, give away your race.
quote:
Snake:
Seems only logical to me that one should be judged on his ability only, not the color of his skin....
Perfectly logical, yet there are many people who will illogically and unfairly discriminate against people based on race. While we've eliminated the overt racism that produced such things as 'Men', 'Women', and 'Colored' bathrooms at gas stations, we've only made slow progress at eliminating the learned behavior that is the cause of racism.
Children are still taught, directly or indirectly, by parents or by environment, that people can be grouped by skin color, and that there are positive and negative aspects to each particular color. The degree of indoctrination and it's results vary, but they are present in every human being. This covert form of racism will take many generations to erase. It cannot be prevented, only uncovered after the fact by analyzing how people are treated, by race, in a suspected discriminatory situation.
Thus the whole point of recording race is to provide the data for the statistical analysis which is required to prove or disprove the impact of covert racism on an individual or group. If 54 were to eliminate this information, it would make it much easier for racism to expand in all the areas where recordkeeping is abolished. Prop 54 does not create Racial Privacy, it creates Racism Privacy.
quote:
Snake:
....And not be given an extra 20 points to get into college JUST because he's certain race or denied entry for the same reasons.
What about the covert 5,000,000 points that white people get toward the 5,000,001 point minimum required in certain situations? When I drive in the town next to mine I get millions of bonus points from the cops because I'm white and neatly dressed, so I never get stopped. One of my company's VPs gets stopped a lot because he's black, evne though he LIVES in that town. This is only one example, but this kind of covert point system is still pervasive in our society. Getting rid of the publically acknowledged system for college etc. doesn't change the covert problem.
Prop 54 is a waste of voting time. It doesn't fix racism. The only thing it improves is that it makes it easier for racists to discriminate without repercussion.
Henry
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- TW
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2003 : 09:02:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I appreciate your honesty. You acknowledge that race could be a primary determining factor for hiring for you. It is the prevalence of this kind of behavior which makes 54 a very bad idea. I am assuming by "several factors" that the bar for non-preferred races in your thinking would be much higher than preferred races to make grade.
No. The 'bar' can stay anywhere it wants, the skills or whatever is being measured might not even be a main factor.
I'm thinking, personality. How well can I as employer communicate with someone. I am a racist, I think Asian are more intelligent than others, I also feel more comfortable with them. If for example one white person with better skills came to me with a job and also an Asian not quite as qualified, I would lean toward the Asian. People tend to stick with who they know. The white could sue me, right?
Then I would have been right. See! The white person only thinks of suing instead of looking for another job. That's someone who is difficult to get along with. The job shouldn't be an unfriendly place.
quote:
You have a core set of criteria that defines who would be good for that position. These criteria are not modified by race. The bad part is that you do not realize that it is a racist ideal that would be determining who gets hired. While not the "race war" KKK ideal, the attitude of "I don't hate minorities, I just don't want to work with them" is a racist position. When used by a majority of employers, this places minorities in a severely economically handicapped class based on race. There is leeway for the human factor, but it cannot be due primarily to race.
As I said people do stay with what they are familiar with. I think any race does it. I also don't think anything is wrong with it either. So if everyone does it then a black owned business, Asian, who ever, can hire who they want. Then that's makes it fair. They each hire their own.
quote:
Only the provider may ask and they may not pass on that information to the consulting physician. Secondly, there are large percentage differences with other medical conditions which are mentioned to members of disproportionately affected races such as Tay Sachs.
Nonsense! When someone goes to a doctor if they feel sick, they doctor and the person are the ones who need to know what's wrong. I stil don't understand why statistics have to be kept. But it's not a problem with 54 anyway.
What do you do with halfies, BTW? My kids are halfies and many of the kids they went to school with are too. They can choose what they want to put on whatever survey or form. So then, what good are those records that everybody is keeping?
My daughter went to school with a girl who had a black father and a white mother, Jewish I think. What if that girl puts black on any forms...how will they know she could be a carrier of some desease on her mothers side? Dividing people into races now days is useless in many cases.
quote:
It also removes the ability for the government to be able to detect racial baises in hiring. Outside organizations cannot compel reporting from businesses nor are businesses allowed to comply with reporting to non-governmental agencies through HIPAA and the Privacy Act of 1976.
Again, I don't see the need to make everything equal.
My solution is education. If kids from an early age were taught skills, how to study, etc., they could make their own way in the world. They wouldn't need to be on a list or need assistance.
"Halvies" or multi-racial children are usually noted in medical records by way of doctor's notes. Statistics must be kept so that trends in populations can be tracked to discover who is most at risk. In some cases, a major risk factor is race due to the genetic makeup of those populations from an area.
Multi-racial children are not common due to the "people want to be with their own" mentality. They do not significantly affect the statistics. Again, from my reading of 54, consulting physicians cannot be told the race of the patient without the patient being present. It is rare that consulting physicians see the patients.
Your statements on hiring underscore that you are only interested in hiding racial discrimination in getting a job and claim people are "being difficult" if they object to being discriminated against. It was just this kind of attitude of "hire your own kind" that equal opportunity was designed to combat. The simple fact was that well qualified minorities were not being hired by anyone for the careers they chose because they were the wrong color. It also clearly shows how 54 is a way to make society blind to the ongoing racial discrimination and not a color-blind society. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2003 : 11:48:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Children are still taught, directly or indirectly, by parents or by environment, that people can be grouped by skin color, and that there are positive and negative aspects to each particular color.
Well.....There are. So!??
LOL, I live with someone who is Orential and has squinty eyes. When I get angry with him I say, I guess you can't open your eyes enough to see. Although I'm not Jewish, my parents were so I say I inherited the 'cheap gene'. I would wash paper plates...if I used them. Big deal. Every group has something one can make fun of.
And if someone said anything to me like that, I'm a bigger man than that and can go on with my life. Actually I was 'sort of' discriminated against (long story) but you know what.....I went on and got a better job. I don't think there were laws then to do anything about it but why bother?
Yeah, there might be some cases where people need help but not everyone has to be a victim for every little thing.
quote:
What about the covert 5,000,000 points that white people get toward the 5,000,001 point minimum required in certain situations? When I drive in the town next to mine I get millions of bonus points from the cops because I'm white and neatly dressed, so I never get stopped. One of my company's VPs gets stopped a lot because he's black, evne though he LIVES in that town. This is only one example, but this kind of covert point system is still pervasive in our society. Getting rid of the publically acknowledged system for college etc. doesn't change the covert problem.
One has not to do with the other so I won't even answer that. |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2003 : 10:17:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
Children are still taught, directly or indirectly, by parents or by environment, that people can be grouped by skin color, and that there are positive and negative aspects to each particular color.
Well.....There are. So!??
So...it's wrong and it perpetuates a behavior that harms our society.
quote:
LOL, I live with someone who is Orential and has squinty eyes. When I get angry with him I say, I guess you can't open your eyes enough to see. Although I'm not Jewish, my parents were so I say I inherited the 'cheap gene'. I would wash paper plates...if I used them. Big deal. Every group has something one can make fun of.
Make fun of on an individual basis. I don't think your partner would be too pleased if a stranger made the same remarks to him. You obviously didn't reject him as a partner because of his race.
quote:
And if someone said anything to me like that, I'm a bigger man than that and can go on with my life. Actually I was 'sort of' discriminated against (long story) but you know what.....I went on and got a better job. I don't think there were laws then to do anything about it but why bother?
What happens when the door is shut for someone time after time after time? Having the statistics means that you can better etermine whether the door was shut due to discrimination or due to lack of qualification.
quote:
Yeah, there might be some cases where people need help but not everyone has to be a victim for every little thing.
Without the statistics the people who need help can't get it as easily and the whining losers are harder to expose.
quote:
quote:
What about the covert 5,000,000 points that white people get toward the 5,000,001 point minimum required in certain situations? When I drive in the town next to mine I get millions of bonus points from the cops because I'm white and neatly dressed, so I never get stopped. One of my company's VPs gets stopped a lot because he's black, evne though he LIVES in that town. This is only one example, but this kind of covert point system is still pervasive in our society. Getting rid of the publically acknowledged system for college etc. doesn't change the covert problem.
One has not to do with the other so I won't even answer that.
The point I was trying to make was that getting rid of a racial
bonus point program for college admission may make that part of
life more equitable, but it does not eliminate the discrimination
that makes other areas less so. (Actually most colleges grant points
to relatives and descendents of alumni, which is often a 'whites only' bonus due to past racial policies.)
- Henry
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- TW
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2003 : 23:35:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake:
I live with someone who is Orential and has squinty eyes. When I get angry with him I say, I guess you can't open your eyes enough to see. Although I'm not Jewish, my parents were so I say I inherited the 'cheap gene'. I would wash paper plates...if I used them. Big deal. Every group has something one can make fun of.
And if someone said anything to me like that, I'm a bigger man than that and can go on with my life. Actually I was 'sort of' discriminated against (long story) but you know what.....I went on and got a better job. I don't think there were laws then to do anything about it but why bother?
Yeah, there might be some cases where people need help but not everyone has to be a victim for every little thing.
See? If any of you think you will change Snakes mind, think again. Here is the good news. Prop. 54 will probably loose, as it deserves to. Problem is, the recall election will bring out all the whackos who might support this ridiculous initiative. So, I dunno. Things have gotten pretty weird here in California. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2003 : 16:32:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Prop. 54 will probably loose, as it deserves to. Problem is, the recall election will bring out all the whackos who might support this ridiculous initiative. So, I dunno. Things have gotten pretty weird here in California.
You mean things have not always been weird here?!!
Look, my dear Mr. Kil, I was not ignoring your previous posts. If you will notice I don't answer many posts that go onto too much wordy detail. An example is the folder 'Can one truly say they are an Atheist?' Wonkavision and ConsequentAtheist are having a long involved nonsense conversation that is too muddled to respond to. Give me 'short and sweet responses', make a point and get on with it, that's all I have time for. So you see, you are not the only one I don't answer.
Plus, others have stated pretty much the same ideas so why repeat(replies)?
You know what I'm going to say anyway and NOTHING I say is going to change YOUR mind either.
And in closing this argument, the medical issue you and others keep talking about IMO are not as drastic as you want to make them sound. If you guys want to be hysterical about it, go ahead, I'm not. I don't see in the proposition where it is going to hurt anything. Where are you reading that the excemptions that are build in are going to interfear with people who are or will become ill from getting needed help?
As with most issues, it's a matter of perception or perspective, in other words...opinion. No one knows what will happen for sure. I don't think you can say something is a bad idea until you try it. LOL, like busing....now there's something that's been tried and failed. I'm sure many thought that was good.
Now I would like to take this oppertunity to publicly thank Mr. Kil for his help with my personal problem. Although you didn't solve it in partictular the advice has promted further investagation and was useful. The bathroom has no longer a door to the closet. Mildew, Yuk!
Let me know when you're in the Valley, Kil.
Thanks, nlm
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2003 : 09:59:41 [Permalink]
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Snake
So, maybe you can tell us why we need to support this initiative?
Other than making it easier to discriminate based on race, and making it nearly impossible to track trends that may wind up costing us much more money than this prop promises to save us, what is it for and how does it help us?
So far you have agreed that it will allow people to make decisions based on race with impunity. So, is this a measure to protect racists?
If it is, calling it the "Racial Privacy Act" is a lie. Not a half truth, but a bold face lie, since the name implies increased protection against racial discrimination.
State your case. So far, all you have done is to call any objection to 54 half truths and hysteria.
Why on earth should I vote for this? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2003 : 07:52:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Prop. 54 will probably loose, as it deserves to. Problem is, the recall election will bring out all the whackos who might support this ridiculous initiative. So, I dunno. Things have gotten pretty weird here in California.
You mean things have not always been weird here?!!
Look, my dear Mr. Kil, I was not ignoring your previous posts. If you will notice I don't answer many posts that go onto too much wordy detail. An example is the folder 'Can one truly say they are an Atheist?' Wonkavision and ConsequentAtheist are having a long involved nonsense conversation that is too muddled to respond to. Give me 'short and sweet responses', make a point and get on with it, that's all I have time for. So you see, you are not the only one I don't answer.
Plus, others have stated pretty much the same ideas so why repeat(replies)?
You know what I'm going to say anyway and NOTHING I say is going to change YOUR mind either.
And in closing this argument, the medical issue you and others keep talking about IMO are not as drastic as you want to make them sound. If you guys want to be hysterical about it, go ahead, I'm not. I don't see in the proposition where it is going to hurt anything. Where are you reading that the excemptions that are build in are going to interfear with people who are or will become ill from getting needed help?
As with most issues, it's a matter of perception or perspective, in other words...opinion. No one knows what will happen for sure. I don't think you can say something is a bad idea until you try it. LOL, like busing....now there's something that's been tried and failed. I'm sure many thought that was good.
Now I would like to take this oppertunity to publicly thank Mr. Kil for his help with my personal problem. Although you didn't solve it in partictular the advice has promted further investagation and was useful. The bathroom has no longer a door to the closet. Mildew, Yuk!
Let me know when you're in the Valley, Kil.
Thanks, nlm
Snake, I've been in healthcare for 14 years. Any time you stem the flow of information or place an additional hurdle in the way of information flow between providers, someone gets hurt. And in this business, one person is too many.
Since 54 removes the ability to track discrimination, how will we know it does what it says?
All 54 does is hide the prevalent racism evidenced by the attitudes being given. Even your own, Snake. It does nothing to prevent reverse discrimination. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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