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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 08/18/2003 : 21:19:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Snake, I've been in healthcare for 14 years. Any time you stem the flow of information or place an additional hurdle in the way of information flow between providers, someone gets hurt. And in this business, one person is too many.
Since 54 removes the ability to track discrimination, how will we know it does what it says?
Where are you seeing that? You have not shown me where people will not get the proper health care. You sound a bit too hysterical. Sorry but I didn't see in the Initiative where it said anything about medical information not being avaliable.
This is what it says:
(f) Otherwise lawful classification of medical research subjects and patients shall be exempt from this section.
Exempt, how much clearer can it be? Am I not reading that correctly?
As for the argument that certain groups need to be informed of deasese because of their profile. Diabetes was the example,....I've been hearing commericals (PSA, I guess) on the TV and radio lately, have been more atune to what they were saying and they mention no spcicific group. They warn everyone to be careful and look for the signs of illness. As I said they should, KIL! And I don't think other deseases are much different. Don't pick a few that are unique to one group and use scare tactics for the public as a whole.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2003 : 01:15:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake:
(f) Otherwise lawful classification of medical research subjects and patients shall be exempt from this section.
This is very limited. It does not allow for data collection. It only addresses research. Data collection is just as important as research. Call this hysterics all you want, you are the one dealing in half truths....
Again, I ask you to make a case for 54. Not just respond to our objections.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2003 : 08:36:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Snake, I've been in healthcare for 14 years. Any time you stem the flow of information or place an additional hurdle in the way of information flow between providers, someone gets hurt. And in this business, one person is too many.
Since 54 removes the ability to track discrimination, how will we know it does what it says?
Where are you seeing that? You have not shown me where people will not get the proper health care. You sound a bit too hysterical. Sorry but I didn't see in the Initiative where it said anything about medical information not being avaliable.
This is what it says:
(f) Otherwise lawful classification of medical research subjects and patients shall be exempt from this section.
Exempt, how much clearer can it be? Am I not reading that correctly?
As for the argument that certain groups need to be informed of deasese because of their profile. Diabetes was the example,....I've been hearing commericals (PSA, I guess) on the TV and radio lately, have been more atune to what they were saying and they mention no spcicific group. They warn everyone to be careful and look for the signs of illness. As I said they should, KIL! And I don't think other deseases are much different. Don't pick a few that are unique to one group and use scare tactics for the public as a whole.
Again, consults are not allowed to be informed of the race of the subject without the patient being present. In addition, as Kil points out, data gathering on subjects and diseases by the state health department. Without this data gathering, trends in disease are unreported and a relationship between disease and the genetic make up of a race cannot be determined and appropriate focused education programs cannot be adequatedly persued.
While you may not think other diseases are any different, they are. Genetic conditions are more pervasive in certian populations.
You can whine and bitch about people not being prevented from getting medical attention, but the quality of that medical attention is hampered by 54. You are focused on quantity. It is the quality of that medical attention that is affected. Effectively, consults which happen away from the patient are outlawed in 54. Classification is not outlawed, but informing a consulting provider is as it is reporting that race to an outside party such as the CDC or state health department. You remove a vital tool in education of affected populations and the possibility of preventing the control of disease outbreaks.
Whether you see this as hysterical or not is irrelavent. The fact is that some people are affected. In healthcare, one person affected is too many. Whether you value those groups or not, it affects healthcare quality for those groups. "Seperate but equal" all over again. And unless you were not paying attention in history class, we all know how "equal" that was.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2003 : 13:35:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Effectively, consults which happen away from the patient are outlawed in 54. Classification is not outlawed, but informing a consulting provider is as it is reporting that race to an outside party such as the CDC or state health department. You remove a vital tool in education of affected populations and the possibility of preventing the control of disease outbreaks.
Val,
I wish you could be a little more clear or concise I don't understand what you are talking about.
And, even if I did I don't think what you mean to say is going to happen. Why would anyone make a law that would prevent a population from getting needed care? That makes no sense.
I have to question a group that uses scare tactics to make their point. Putting breast cancer on the top of the list as one of their objections to 54 sure sounds like that to me.
quote:
Kil:
Again, I ask you to make a case for 54. Not just respond to our objections....
Why?
I posted this folder to ask for thoughts so I could hear other sides, in hopes of seeing why not to vote for it.
The pro web site itself is enough of a case. I don't need to copy what it says.
The reason I reply here is, what has been said IMO is not correct.
Give me something that helps your case! That con web site is not telling the whole story they are only posting quick catchy clips of misinformation. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 09:01:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Effectively, consults which happen away from the patient are outlawed in 54. Classification is not outlawed, but informing a consulting provider is as it is reporting that race to an outside party such as the CDC or state health department. You remove a vital tool in education of affected populations and the possibility of preventing the control of disease outbreaks.
Val,
I wish you could be a little more clear or concise I don't understand what you are talking about.
And, even if I did I don't think what you mean to say is going to happen. Why would anyone make a law that would prevent a population from getting needed care? That makes no sense.
I have to question a group that uses scare tactics to make their point. Putting breast cancer on the top of the list as one of their objections to 54 sure sounds like that to me.
And where did I say I used the anti-54 website? Breast cancer is at the top of the list because it is the methodology of treatment which is unequal. Medicine is what works for the majority. Racial differences in treatments exist. The mortality rate of breast cancer is worst in African American females. An education program concerning early detection could reduce the mortality rate.
http://acluweb.best.vwh.net/connerly_initiative/
Here's how healthcare and state health departments work.
Health care reports the number of visits for diagnoses for certain diseases of interest. Those diseases include geographic area and race. Should a race be inordinately affected by a disease, the state health department issues an education directive to all healthcare providers to increase education about that disease to patients of those races to stem the behaviors that help that disease to grow.
54 denies that tool as the exceptions are only for research and doctor/patient records. Trending is not classified as research.
But medical is not the only reason 54 hides racism and is bad.
http://www.ill-literacy.org/prop54/noprop54.pdf
http://www.ci.la.ca.us/mayor/myrpress/mayormyrpress27413326_08152003.pdf
http://www.aadapinc.ws/whatsnew.shtml |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2003 : 23:56:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And where did I say I used the anti-54 website?
Hum, did someone say you used that website?
quote:
Breast cancer is at the top of the list because it is the methodology of treatment which is unequal. Medicine is what works for the majority.
Sorry, still not understanding your words. But let me say this to you, you seem a bit upset. We seem to have a difference of oppinion. I wouldn't want to be the cause of your getting HBP so let's just stop saying the same thing over and over. OK?
quote:
Racial differences in treatments exist. The mortality rate of breast cancer is worst in African American females.
Not so much more but let's not get into fine points either. What you are worried about is just not going to happen.
quote:
But medical is not the only reason 54 hides racism and is bad.
http://www.ill-literacy.org/prop54/noprop54.pdf
http://www.ci.la.ca.us/mayor/myrpress/mayormyrpress27413326_08152003.pdf
http://www.aadapinc.ws/whatsnew.shtml
Sigh! Have you....as a skeptic, asked yourself what the motives for dividing the races and pointing out the differences are? Instead of working together as one people to make everything better for all. Why do those groups want to keep everything separate? Why?
Again!!!!! I am telling you what they state on those sites is propaganda and either out right lies or 1/2 truths. To SCARE people.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2003 : 07:20:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
And where did I say I used the anti-54 website?
Hum, did someone say you used that website?
quote:
Breast cancer is at the top of the list because it is the methodology of treatment which is unequal. Medicine is what works for the majority.
Sorry, still not understanding your words. But let me say this to you, you seem a bit upset. We seem to have a difference of oppinion. I wouldn't want to be the cause of your getting HBP so let's just stop saying the same thing over and over. OK?
quote:
Racial differences in treatments exist. The mortality rate of breast cancer is worst in African American females.
Not so much more but let's not get into fine points either. What you are worried about is just not going to happen.
quote:
But medical is not the only reason 54 hides racism and is bad.
http://www.ill-literacy.org/prop54/noprop54.pdf
http://www.ci.la.ca.us/mayor/myrpress/mayormyrpress27413326_08152003.pdf
http://www.aadapinc.ws/whatsnew.shtml
Sigh! Have you....as a skeptic, asked yourself what the motives for dividing the races and pointing out the differences are? Instead of working together as one people to make everything better for all. Why do those groups want to keep everything separate? Why?
Again!!!!! I am telling you what they state on those sites is propaganda and either out right lies or 1/2 truths. To SCARE people.
Again, here you go with the "your hysterical" crap.
You don't understand my words? And then you somehow have more knowledge about healthcare than physicians claiming that what I am concerned about will not happen?
Arguementum ad ignorantum.
Have I questioned what the motives for dividing people up by race is? Yes. The answer is that racism is still rampant. Hiding it won't make it go away it only serves the racist agenda.
Instead of refuting the concerns raised in the sites, you dismiss it with hand waving, saying "propaganda and half truths". Hardly a compelling arguement.
You can tell me whatever you want. It doesn't make it anywhere near the truth or supported. I back up my opinions on this matter with 14 years of experience in the healthcare field. What have do done in healthcare? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 08/27/2003 07:22:15 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2003 : 11:41:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
You can tell me whatever you want. It doesn't make it anywhere near the truth or supported. I back up my opinions on this matter with 14 years of experience in the healthcare field. What have do done in healthcare?
I try not to assume but I think you meant...instead of "What have do done " you wanted to say...what have you done. I see you are overly excited and will refuse to see another side of the issue or the truth of what the proposition actually says, so there's no point in trying to go around again.
Thank you for your comments. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2003 : 19:17:29 [Permalink]
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I once heard this story. Ansel Adams visited Ronald Reagan at the whitehouse. After he left a reporter asked Adams what he thought of the president. Adams thought for a few seconds and answered "well, he seemed rather opaque to me. No light goes in and no light comes out."
I often think of that story when I attempt a debate with Snake...
It must be nice going through life completely unencumbered by facts...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2003 : 08:08:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
You can tell me whatever you want. It doesn't make it anywhere near the truth or supported. I back up my opinions on this matter with 14 years of experience in the healthcare field. What have do done in healthcare?
I try not to assume but I think you meant...instead of "What have do done " you wanted to say...what have you done. I see you are overly excited and will refuse to see another side of the issue or the truth of what the proposition actually says, so there's no point in trying to go around again.
Thank you for your comments.
A grammatical error is indication of excitement?
Huh?
Basic dismissiveness. Does not support your position.
Failure to address arguementum ad ignorantum fallacy in your own position.
I make a lot of spelling and grammatical errors when I post. I try to clean up most of them but sometimes I miss one or two.
You don't want to argue anymore. Fine.
I'm willing to see your side if you can actually support your claims. You have failed in that regard. I remain in opposition to 54 as a measure which hides racism.
I gotta agree with Kil on this one. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2003 : 09:12:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Los Angeles Times:
State regulators sued the backers of Proposition 54 on Wednesday, saying they were illegally hiding the names of contributors who gave a total of more than $1.9 million to the initiative, which would restrict government agencies from asking questions about race.
In the lawsuit, the Fair Political Practices Commission demanded that Ward Connerly and his nonprofit organization, the American Civil Rights Coalition, disclose their contributors before the Oct. 7 special election. Connerly said he wouldn't, and he vowed to fight the case "all the way to the limits: the Supreme Court, the United Nations, the good Lord."
Critics have charged that Connerly is hiding donors' names either to protect them from scrutiny or because voters would be turned off if they knew who they were. He insists neither is the case.
The FPPC's demand for immediate disclosure marks a first for the commission, which usually acts after an election. The suit was filed in Sacramento Superior Court, which scheduled a hearing for Sept. 26, just 11 days before the election.
Gee whiz. Why am I not surprised by this. Read more at:
www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop4sep04,1,5527964.story?coll=la-headlines-california |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2003 : 11:55:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Los Angeles Times:
State regulators sued the backers of Proposition 54 on Wednesday, saying they were illegally hiding the names of contributors who gave a total of more than $1.9 million to the initiative, which would restrict government agencies from asking questions about race.
In the lawsuit, the Fair Political Practices Commission demanded that Ward Connerly and his nonprofit organization, the American Civil Rights Coalition, disclose their contributors before the Oct. 7 special election. Connerly said he wouldn't, and he vowed to fight the case "all the way to the limits: the Supreme Court, the United Nations, the good Lord."
Critics have charged that Connerly is hiding donors' names either to protect them from scrutiny or because voters would be turned off if they knew who they were. He insists neither is the case.
The FPPC's demand for immediate disclosure marks a first for the commission, which usually acts after an election. The suit was filed in Sacramento Superior Court, which scheduled a hearing for Sept. 26, just 11 days before the election.
Gee whiz. Why am I not surprised by this. Read more at:
www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop4sep04,1,5527964.story?coll=la-headlines-california
Definately looks fishy.
'The coalition posted a statement on its Web site late Wednesday that elaborated on the principle. It said donors to the organization enjoy a 1st Amendment right to freedom of association "without fear of harassment or reprisal from those who might disagree with one's views." '
This shows a rather odd view of the first amendment. The first amendment prohibits the government from harrassing or getting reprisal from the donors. It does not give one protection from the general public.
Donors to a political organization must be disclosed. Donors to anti-54 efforts must be (and are) disclosed. Why should the pro-54 effort be any different. In no way is Connorly suggesting that harrassment or reprisals are expected from the government, but rather individuals.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2003 : 16:03:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
The suit was filed in Sacramento Superior Court, which scheduled a hearing for Sept. 26, just 11 days before the election.
quote:
Connerly said he wouldn't [disclose contributors names] and he vowed to fight the case "all the way to the limits: the Supreme Court, the United Nations, the good Lord."
quote:
Valiant Dancer:
Definately looks fishy.
Why in the world would Connerly not follow the rules of discloser? Dollars to doughnuts some of his contributors would embarrass the pro 54 crusade to make this a "color blind state." He isn't protecting them, he is protecting himself. What a dickhead.
Problem is, he has as much as stated that he will not comply if the judgment goes against him. So, where does that leave us? I hope this serves as a make up call to some of the pro 54 advocates. (No, not you Snake, If the KKK was contributing, you would probably say so? It's their right...) |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2003 : 23:53:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
It must be nice going through life completely unencumbered by facts...
Kil, that is so beneath you. Sounds like those right wing talk show hosts who 'say' they are being fair and giving both sides air time but then the best they can do when they don't agree with a caller or guest is to insult or make snide remarks.
 Whatever! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2003 : 00:15:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Dollars to doughnuts some of his contributors would embarrass the pro 54 crusade to make this a "color blind state." He isn't protecting them, he is protecting himself. What a dickhead.
Problem is, he has as much as stated that he will not comply if the judgment goes against him.
Geeses Krist Kil, you would make a good talk show host!
Throwing out suppositions and planting doubts without knowledge of what really is happening. You say you haven't heard of Hannity but that's his MO. Only difference between you two is he's a jerk.
Also, the LA Times? I wouldn't trust what I read there, I'd like to see an unbiased story (on any subject they print).
Val, yes, that is my impression of your errors, that you were excited to get your point across. Sure, we all make errors and I too don't like when someone keeps pointing out spelling mistakes as a way of insulting the poster so I don't usually do it. Just in your case that's the sense I got, that you were in a hurry.
I still refer you and everyone else to the offical web site as I think it is very clear on the issue. I can't really add more (however if I do think of something you'll be the 1st to know) nor state it better so please stop saying I haven't told you why one should vote for it. If you don't agree that's different but the web site has all the information necessary. |
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