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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
 Posted - 10/16/2003 : 00:10:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ktesibios
When a broad consensus of opinion among people who work every day in public health, including former Surgeons General
Let's just ask him how much he was paid to say what he did.
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it deserves more serious consideration than to be summarily dismissed as "lies" and "phoney ads".
Well, it was lies or at the very least twisting of facts and fear tactics but if you wish to think otherwise that's your freedom of thought that we have here.
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Have you even considered the possibility that 66% of the voters concluded, as I did, that there are better ways to become "color-blind" than by sticking needles into our eyeballs?
If the government wouldn't take so much money and waste it perhaps putting the money into education would help, as far as other ways. But yes, the majority of people can and have been wrong before.
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Very nice. Now, as support for the assumed commonality of experience necessary to your "why can't they pull themselves up by their bootstraps just like so-and-so did" argument, which of these ethnic groups have been:
Brought here by force and against their will?
Enslaved, bought and sold as chattel property for several hundred years, and then
Systematically and with the connivance of authority denied the vote, despite their holding perfectly valid citizenship?
Regularly subjected to mob violence?
1st of all, oh please, give me a break. How many chances do you give people? That was then, this is now. Things are much better now....for everyone. How long should it take for any one group to raise themselves up? How many 'breaks' do you keep giving them? But having said that, no one persons or group should be singled out, that's racism. Help is avalible to all.
Who's to say which degradation is worse than another to a human but the Chinese were also in the same boat (no pun intended) in many ways or even worse. They weren't even given full citizenship rights until the 1940's, long after blacks were legal as it were in American society. I'm tired of everything being black and white, have's and have nots. That's not the way it is in reality. There are minorities who are richer than whites and there's 'poor white trash' who are uneducated. And everything in between. Who says everyone is or has to be equal? That's not what the USA is about. We have equal opportunity but we don't have to pay to make everyone equal if they don't try for themselves.
Yes....Equal opportunity.....we do have it. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 04:51:24 [Permalink]
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I've been ignoring this thread. California politics appears to have overshadowed Louisiana politics for carnival atmosphere, and i''m all carnivaled out. However, I checked the more recent posts to see if the topic evolved as it so often does.
Needless to say, a few comments touched a nerve with me.
Plus, I am writing this reply on my pocket computer at work during my all too short breaks and between calls. The company has me working twelve hour plus days, six days a week, despite union negotiated rules...Oh! The value of written contracts?
Posted by Snake;quote:
Now, if we can only get rid of those damn unions. Some people only want, want, want and don't want to contribute. They don't seem to care that food (and transportation) prices will go up just becaue of their selfish gains.
Snake, old friend, I love ya, but dude;
First, let's address the second part of this statement. Are you saying that it's the greed of unionized ag workers, (if such a thing exists), who live in shacks, and can't afford healthcare or non-recycled clothing that is the reason we pay inflated prices for food?
Do we really pay infated prices for food?
Do you honestly believe that unionized dock workers, equipment operators and truck drivers are too selfish to give parts of their working class wages back to benevolent, socially conscious corporate management in order to lower the worker inflated cost of living?
Is the ability to give your children a roof over their heads, three squares a day and little else a "selfish gain?"
As usual, I'm confoozed.
As for the first part, why do we want to eliminate democratically elected unions from our society?
Do lowly workers like myself not have the right to organize into groups to advocate for our equal share of this great nation that we built with our hands, our backs and our minds?
Should we not be allowed to join in solidarity to stand as one against workplace repression?
Are our contributions of labor and creativity less meaningful than the ethereal contributions of those that siphon off the capital while adding little of tangible value to our economy?
The company I work for was the first in tne Southern, domestic oil industry to organize. We did not organize out of greed or avarice. We organized because each year our pay dropped in relationship to the growth experienced by the US economy as a whole. Our benefits packages were shrinking even faster. Workplace safety was nothing more than a campaign of slogans as we watched a few of our brothers die, and others live on in pain. Management was given pay raises while labor was being cut. Finally, we were told how many millions of dollars we lost over the fiscal year while the CEO alone drew more in bonuses than the company reported as losses. This did not even count the money he earned through stock options and other perks. Nor, does this include the lucrative bonuses and benefits given to other EO's and FO's.
And, the company did nothing illegal. (For those from countries other than the US, this country has very little federal labor law, and even less regulation in 'right to work' states such as the one I reside in)
You may ask, "Why not work elsewhere? The market will dictate change." The answer is simple. There is no 'elsewhere' without giving up our homes and tearing apart our families. The company is the largest in a four parish area. All other employers do not compete. They simply offer a few pennies more in wages while giving less in benefits, such as expensive or non-existent healthcare. This is how business operates. Corporations do not exist to reward the community, but to enrich the shareholders. Labor is simply a commodity that is bought and sold more easily than equipment.
As for money, yes, we are better off now than we were before the union, but we still earn substantially less than other tradesman nationally. We must work longer hours to become competitive with national averages. Furthermore, our contract will run out in about a year, and it would be a surpriise if the company seriously pursues new customer commitments, thus weakening the position of labor.
I shudder at the idea of losing the corporate check that unions offer. I cringe at the thought of where we would be today without the reforms made possible by the unions of yesterday.
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Do you only watch the evening news that shows negative views of certain races?
What about the blacks who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.? Do you think they only live in the inner city dealing drugs?
What about the millions more working class and poor black people that are honest, hard-working men and women that still find equal pay for equal work and fair opportunity for promotion an unrealistic dream?
Most big companies have a few high powered black execs or attornies. Unfortunately, most execs are still white men, and most janitors are black men, proportionately. This indicates that we still have a problem witnin our society.
The media shows off this imbalance disproportionately. The corporate media has a vested interest in promoting their own illusion,(or delusion, I'm not sure which word is more accurate), of being color blind.
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If you don't educate someone but only give them 'handouts', that's all they will expect. Groups that control those handouts want to stay in business therefore they have an interest in perpetuating the sterotype.
Close, but...Only the corporations that are paid to give handouts want to maintain the status quo. Most thoughtful people want to offer a competitive education and opportunity for self-sufficiency.
Even poor people have pride. Even the working class wants to know that they have worth. All of us want to be able to raise our children as productive, happy and valued citizens of this nation, and of the world, despite, or in spite of our nationality, skin color, religion or occupation.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2003 : 07:00:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
People actually read Prop 54. It was defeated by a two to one margin.
There was a massive campaign against 54 with lies that it was a health issue. I don't think people did read it or they 'read' something into it that wasn't there. They were scared by the ads, the phoney ads.
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Here in the US, we are still struggling with race relations. Blacks were considered second class citizens (and treated as such by the government) until the early 1960's. We've begun dealing with it, but it's a long road to change the attitudes imbedded in our society for over 200 years. Studies show that the US culture still discriminates based on race in hiring practices
Do you only watch the evening news that shows negative views of certain races?
What about the blacks who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.? Do you think they only live in the inner city dealing drugs?
Whatever studies you have, I'm sure there are others that show that minorities are not as bad off as you want to portray.
Blacks are not the only ones who were second class citizens. Many others from various nations and backgrounds were discreminated against. Many have gone on and overcome that. If you keep telling someone he is not doing well and needs help then he will not try to help himself. If you don't educate someone but only give them 'handouts', that's all they will expect. Groups that control those handouts want to stay in business therefore they have an interest in perpetuating the sterotype.
As for listing what race one is, there is not need to. None that the school could explain to me. All I wanted was my boy to learn, what he was, was no business of the government for purpose of his education. I don't want him getting into school and having someone say....it was because he was a minority, I'd like them to think it's because he earned the right to go there because of his grades or other criteria. Likewise, everyone else should be judged on their ability and not be given points for being a certain color.
You claim they are phoney, yet offer no evidence for this. It has been pointed out to you of the problem, yet you merely dismiss it with hand waving. Again, non-support for your position. Obviously, "phoney" has a different meaning than "false" or "misleading" for you. I suspect it means "refutes my position" or "does not agree with me".
Blacks are not the only minority that has been or is currently being discriminated against. Some were able to over come their lot. Many have not. A question that I have is how did you get that I think that blacks only live in the inner city and deal drugs from my contention that they have the additional burden of racial disparity?
You say that if we do not educate someone and instead just give them handouts, they will never get better. Yet, this is the reason that affirmative action studies exist. To make sure that the education is available.
In a later post, you do not deal with the support by many healthcare providers for the defeat of 54 and instead forward an unsupported allegation that C. Everet Coop was compensated highly for his appearance in anti-54 ads. Do you have a source for this allegation or is it still more dismissive hand waving?
The race information collected is to prove to the federal government that they are not discriminating based on race.
Still waiting for you to actually defend your position. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 10/16/2003 07:08:20 |
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