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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 09/22/2003 : 07:19:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Originally posted by Kil:
U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein, California
U.S. Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, 8th District, House Minority Leader
U.S. Congresswoman Diane Watson, 33rd District
Cruz Bustamante
Snake Spews:
Just a few of the names I know well and of course now Mr. Bustamante. Is that supposed to mean something or be impressive? All of them I think would be happier living in Russia.
If they are an example of the thinking of the rest of those on the list.....well, 'nuf said.
I listed 57 health organizations that are against 54.
I listed 40 health care professionals including the last three U.S. Surgeon Generals who oppose proposition 54.
I listed 96 public officials who are against 54.
I listed about 160 organizations that are in opposition to the initiative including
the ACLU, and the NAACP. Groups that fight against racism. In fact, most of the organizations on this list exist to fight racism and bigotry.
I listed 8 political associations.
I listed 16 religious leaders or organizations that are against 54.
20 legal groups and Bar associations are also listed.
The list of supporters for 54 who have signed on as such? 30.
They listed the log cabin republicans who have not come out in favor of 54
They listed Joseph Coors who is dead.
They listed David Horewitze who is a right wing whacko.
Snake, you sick little puppy. Diane Fienstein would be happier living in Russia?
Once again, I could never match you for making the case against 54.
For those really interested in this, please refer to the earlier pages of this thread. There is a lot of good info provided by Valiant Dancer on the Health Care ramifications if this ridiculous proposition was to pass.
There is also a lot of arm waving and such by Snake. Look closely and you will notice that she doesn't provide a single shred of anything to back up her arguments. In fact, she doesn't even make any arguments. It boils down to this. If you don't agree with Snake you are a hysteric and spreading half truths....
Small correction. 29 support Prop 54. Gordon Jones is listed twice. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2003 : 09:08:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Valiant Dancer:
Small correction. 29 support Prop 54. Gordon Jones is listed twice.
Sheesh, I didn't notice. You're right! If I had the time I would run a search on all of the endorsements they have published. And lets not forget that they have refused to disclose the names of those who have contributed money to the cause. The anti 54 campaign has made that discloser.
Leaves me with the feeling that Connerly is incredibly incompetent in his dishonesty. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 01:29:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
For those really interested in this, please refer to the earlier pages of this thread. There is a lot of good info provided by Valiant Dancer on the Health Care ramifications if this ridiculous proposition was to pass.
As I remember reading in any of Dancers' posts, he doesn't show any facts as I have asked for. I only saw repeted personal statements that health care will be affected, he never pointed out where in 54 it will create problems. But as one can clearly see if one reads the proposition that health care is exempted from not collecting the data. In plain English......Heath care is EXEMPT. (Now, how can that be a problem?)
All the adds I've seen on TV mostly concintrate on the scare of not getting proper health care and that is NOT what the main idea of 54 is about. Which shows me that they are using decieving tactics to make people afraid to vote for it.
Recently I was at a get together with my Freethinker group and of course the subject of politics came up. Someone mentioned that most of the minorities they've talked to are FOR 54 and it's the PC crowd that for whatever weird reason are pushing for it's defeat. Why do 'whites' always think they know what's best for other people? Why do opposing sides have to use false arguments and missleading information to try to sway people?
All I ask is for people to read it and then tell me (point to) why it seems such a bad idea. All I've heard so far are what if's that have nothing to do with what the proposition will do.
And now it also seems the whole country and even world wide people are interested in the recall. So I'd like to add, I do hope the voters here will be intelligent enough to understand that Cruz Bustyourmoney (or Boost-your-money) our vice governor will ruin California beyond repiar and will not vote for him. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 01:36:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tw101356
I wasn't clear enough and you misunderstood. I was saying that prop 54 cannot override federal laws that require race to be recorded.
Ok, thank you for pointing out the misunderstanding. LOL, what do you expect when I read these things at midnight?!!!
As for the rest of your arguments, I don't agree and don't think anything I say in defence of my opinion would make a dent in what anyone else thinks either so I won't waste my time. Thank you. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 06:31:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
For those really interested in this, please refer to the earlier pages of this thread. There is a lot of good info provided by Valiant Dancer on the Health Care ramifications if this ridiculous proposition was to pass.
As I remember reading in any of Dancers' posts, he doesn't show any facts as I have asked for. I only saw repeted personal statements that health care will be affected, he never pointed out where in 54 it will create problems. But as one can clearly see if one reads the proposition that health care is exempted from not collecting the data. In plain English......Heath care is EXEMPT. (Now, how can that be a problem?)
All the adds I've seen on TV mostly concintrate on the scare of not getting proper health care and that is NOT what the main idea of 54 is about. Which shows me that they are using decieving tactics to make people afraid to vote for it.
Recently I was at a get together with my Freethinker group and of course the subject of politics came up. Someone mentioned that most of the minorities they've talked to are FOR 54 and it's the PC crowd that for whatever weird reason are pushing for it's defeat. Why do 'whites' always think they know what's best for other people? Why do opposing sides have to use false arguments and missleading information to try to sway people?
All I ask is for people to read it and then tell me (point to) why it seems such a bad idea. All I've heard so far are what if's that have nothing to do with what the proposition will do.
And now it also seems the whole country and even world wide people are interested in the recall. So I'd like to add, I do hope the voters here will be intelligent enough to understand that Cruz Bustyourmoney (or Boost-your-money) our vice governor will ruin California beyond repiar and will not vote for him.
Then you didn't read prop 54. 54 only exempts patient care and research. Not health department trending which is a vital tool. All medical is not exempt.
"Otherwise lawful classification of medical research subjects and patients shall be exempt from this section." -- Section f
That's pretty clear from a health care standpoint. Research subjects and patients. Health department trending is not allowed as it neither directly deals with patients nor does it perform medical research.
In plain English, there is a fact that you have consistently ignored.
Your absurd claim that 'whites' are pushing for 54's defeat and minorities are for 54 is not supported by the large number of minority organizations which oppose 54. You instead propose anectodal evidence presented by one person who has taked to an unknown number of minorities. For all you know, that person talked to two people who are their friends and share that friend's world view. Hardly a representive sample nor indicative of the opinion of a great many minority groups.
We have read the proposition. We have pointed out why it is a bad idea and provided sources. You have dismissed these as "false" with mere hand waving. You have provided no other evidence or source to back up your claims. You merely beg the question and point back to the text of 54 and the opinion of the effect of 54 from a website devoted to its passage. Opinions which have been shown to be wrong from the same sources used to show why the prop is a bad idea.
The main thrust of 54 is to hide racism. The most profound side effect which affects all races is the health care issue. Since the people working to fight 54 want support over all races, the health care effect is most logical to use. Since the claims are valid, what is decieving about it?
We are still waiting for you to defend your position. You haven't. You have been content to dismiss arguements with hand waving. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 09:54:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake:
As I remember reading in any of Dancers' posts, he doesn't show any facts as I have asked for. I only saw repeted personal statements that health care will be affected, he never pointed out where in 54 it will create problems.
I'm not willing to call Snake a liar. Perhaps she just doesn't get it. But over and over Valiant Dancer explained the problems regarding the health related issues of prop 54 by sourcing the proposition
itself. He also provided other sources. He has explained once again in the post, previous to this one, the problem with the health care exemption. The language of the proposition that Snake is inviting everyone to read, has only a limited exemption that still prohibits tracking. Since Snake does not understand the value of tracking, even though it has been explained to her many times, she disregards this prohibition as a problem.
Again, the 57 health organizations I listed see it as a problem. And there are probably more. Three surgeon generals see it as a problem. There are no health organizations that have endorsed proposition 54. Those are sourced facts, not arm waving....
quote:
Snake:
Recently I was at a get together with my Freethinker group and of course the subject of politics came up. Someone mentioned that most of the minorities they've talked to are FOR 54 and it's the PC crowd that for whatever weird reason are pushing for it's defeat. Why do 'whites' always think they know what's best for other people? Why do opposing sides have to use false arguments and missleading information to try to sway people?
These are some of the "whites" who think they know what's best for other people. I mean, some of these groups have white members. I'm not so sure about the NAACP though, or the Asian Pacific
Americans for an Informed California, or many of the other groups on this list. What all these groups, and the groups I left off this particular list have in common is a vision of a "color blind" society. Go figure... For a more complete list of organizations that oppose the proposition, see my earlier post where I list them all.
quote:
A. Philip Randolph Institute
Alliance of Black NCR Employees
American Association of University Women
American Association of University Women-California
Anti-Defamation League
Asian American Drug Abuse Program
Asian Americans for Community Involvement
Asian Law Alliance
Asian Law Caucus
Asian Pacific American Legal Center
Asian Pacific Americans for an Informed California
Asian Pacific Environmental Network
Asian Pacific Islander Legal Outreach
Association of Multi-Ethnic Americans
California Black Faculty and Staff Association
Common Cause
California Immigrant Welfare Collaborative
California Latino Civil Rights Network
California National Organization for Women
California Women's Agenda
California Women's Law Center
Californians for Justice
Cambodian Association of America
C-Beyond: Youth Making HistoryCenter for Third World Organizing
Center on Race, Poverty & the Environment
Centro Legal de la Raza
Centro Shalom
Chinese for Affirmative Action
Chinese Progressive Association Coalition for Economic Equity
Coalition for Humane Immigrants Rights of Los Angeles
Community Development Institute
Drug Policy Alliance Network
Ella Baker Center for Human Rights
Equal Justice Society
Equal Rights Advocates
Equality California
Gay / Straight Alliance Network
Greenlining Institute
Grayson N |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2003 : 12:14:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Snake:
So I'd like to add, I do hope the voters here will be intelligent enough to understand that Cruz Bustyourmoney (or Boost-your-money) our vice governor will ruin California beyond repiar and will not vote for him.
Another load of crap. In California, the Lt. governor is a separate elected official. The governor and the lt. governor have to run their own campaigns. That means that it is possible, and it has happened, that the lt. governor is not member of the same party as the governor.
Our govenor is a slim ball. I will, however, vote against his recall. I think that sort of thing should be reserved for those who have shown themselves to be corrupt or violate the law in some way. So far, all Davis has done wrong is to not know the dot coms were going to fail, sending our state into a budget crisis. He was dead-on when he said Enron was cheating the state. It was Davis who manage to keep the lights on. I oppose his car tax. Oh well....
I will also vote for our current lt. governor. He is probably a slim ball too. I prefer not to allow a republican power grab, which is exactly what this election is about.
I also challenge Snake to beat my score in any kind of intelligence contest she can name, since she has now stated that I am "[not] intelligent enough to understand that Cruz Bustyourmoney (or Boost-your-money) our vice governor will ruin California beyond repiar."
All that I insist on is that the test be recognized as a test of intelligence. In general, I doubt much of the value of IQ testing for various reasons, but I know how I score and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. In fact, maybe we should wager? I happen to know that Snake is fond of gambling....
Come to think of it, I would also be willing to go head to head with Snake on a test of our critical thinking abilities.
"Go ahead, make my day..." Dirty Harry.
Edited to add this:
Okay. My girlfriend says I have gone to far. She says I have responded to an ad hominem attack with an ad hominem attack of my own. I guess she is right.
Sigh... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2003 : 00:10:26 [Permalink]
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Even though I'm extremly pressed for time, had to post this.
Now the former surgen general. Dr. Coop is getting in on the act, and I do mean Act. Talking about the medical problems that will occure if this is passed. And today we got a flyer in the mail requesting a No vote in order to stop this Republican measure. What a joke.
Propositions are not party related. But the main thing is, why do they have to dwell on one small part that isn't even the idea of this proposition. In fact the only mention of medical in is IS to say that medical lists are exempt.
I ask you, if the opposing side doesn't like this then why can't they be honest and debate the real issue of the measure instead of picking one part out to scare people.
They make it sound in the commericals that it's all about medical and that's a lie.
Don't know that I'll have time to post before the election but at least I tried to show how people can't see things in the proper light. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2003 : 07:54:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
Even though I'm extremly pressed for time, had to post this.
Now the former surgen general. Dr. Coop is getting in on the act, and I do mean Act. Talking about the medical problems that will occure if this is passed. And today we got a flyer in the mail requesting a No vote in order to stop this Republican measure. What a joke.
Propositions are not party related. But the main thing is, why do they have to dwell on one small part that isn't even the idea of this proposition. In fact the only mention of medical in is IS to say that medical lists are exempt.
I ask you, if the opposing side doesn't like this then why can't they be honest and debate the real issue of the measure instead of picking one part out to scare people.
They make it sound in the commericals that it's all about medical and that's a lie.
Don't know that I'll have time to post before the election but at least I tried to show how people can't see things in the proper light.
I think that you've shown how people can't see things in the proper light by example quite well.
See the myriad posts concerning quotes from the Act and how healthcare must respond to them. The medical issue impacts all races. The main thrust of the Act is to hide racism.
We are still waiting for you to address the issues presented you instead of dismissing them with hand waving. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2003 : 10:00:03 [Permalink]
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And now for a bit of good news. A few weeks ago, prop 54 was leading in the polls. That was probably due to the phony name "racial privacy initiative" that Connerly gave his bogus proposition. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if many well meaning people signed the petition to get this thing on the ballot because the wording "racial privacy" is so warm and fuzzy. (Just another reason why I am against the initiative process.) Now that the facts of what this proposition will actually do are coming to light, many of it's early supporters are turning away from it. As they say, "the devil is in the details." I wasn't sure if there was enough time to get that message out. Originally, 54 was scheduled to be on the regular election ballot in March. But due to the upcoming recall election the measure is included on the October 8 ballot because it has already qualified.
The folks at the pro 54 site are doing a lot of hand waving of their own. That is probably because they offer little in the way of support for their piece of crap proposition.
At least they have Snake. I will be thinking about her as I cancel out her vote.
quote:
A Los Angeles Times poll conducted earlier this week found that 54% of likely voters oppose Proposition 54.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop543oct03,1,3851622.story |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Mahaad_Mana
New Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 00:48:23 [Permalink]
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I was born from two asian parents in a *not telling country* Western society. In that Western society, Asians where a small minority group and I was for most of the time, the only Asian in my class of white people. There was no racial discrimination there, in fact I made a lot of friends. I was even nominated by them for class-contest becuase I was smart.
Someone mentioned in page 4 they were offended when some school asked for her son's nationality or something. What's wrong with that? Nobody cares, it's just for statistics and facts. It's not like they're going to go: Hey he's black! He should be put in the bottom-class! I seriously doubt if any good school actually does that. Racial discrimination still does exist but isn't very common or heard of. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but someone who is ashamed of their own race would only say that.
I'm not sure about American or in others but the small country I live in has a good reputation as a non-racist society and has the cleanest water in the world. ^^ |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2003 : 06:29:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
And now for a bit of good news. A few weeks ago, prop 54 was leading in the polls. That was probably due to the phony name "racial privacy initiative" that Connerly gave his bogus proposition. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if many well meaning people signed the petition to get this thing on the ballot because the wording "racial privacy" is so warm and fuzzy. (Just another reason why I am against the initiative process.) Now that the facts of what this proposition will actually do are coming to light, many of it's early supporters are turning away from it. As they say, "the devil is in the details." I wasn't sure if there was enough time to get that message out. Originally, 54 was scheduled to be on the regular election ballot in March. But due to the upcoming recall election the measure is included on the October 8 ballot because it has already qualified.
The folks at the pro 54 site are doing a lot of hand waving of their own. That is probably because they offer little in the way of support for their piece of crap proposition.
At least they have Snake. I will be thinking about her as I cancel out her vote.
quote:
A Los Angeles Times poll conducted earlier this week found that 54% of likely voters oppose Proposition 54.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop543oct03,1,3851622.story
Poor Snake. People actually read Prop 54. It was defeated by a two to one margin.
http://vote2003.ss.ca.gov/Returns/prop/00.htm
64.2% of the voting population recognized it for what it is. Hiding racism.
Maahad Mana, America has a long set of problems that the country that you are from does not. Here in the US, we are still struggling with race relations. Blacks were considered second class citizens (and treated as such by the government) until the early 1960's. We've begun dealing with it, but it's a long road to change the attitudes imbedded in our society for over 200 years. Studies show that the US culture still discriminates based on race in hiring practices. I also suspect that the country that you come from does not have the same racial diversity that the US does nor the national history of our forefathers being kicked out of every decent country in the world. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 01:35:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I also challenge Snake to beat my score in any kind of intelligence contest she can name, since she has now stated that I am "[not] intelligent enough to understand that Cruz Bustyourmoney (or Boost-your-money) our vice governor will ruin California beyond repiar."
Someone is a little out of sorts. Someone is a little defensive.
Who said you were not intelligent? How would I know for whom you were going to vote?
As I remember that day we talked you did say you were not going to vote for the recall but I don't remember you saying anything about voting for Cruz. I don't even think the ballots were out yet. I could be wrong but it was a while before the election.
As for taking a test, I quit high school. I got 'F's' and certainty never above a 'D' in English. I didn't study much history, etc. And have difficulties taking tests but if you want to feel like a 'big man' and answer questions that I don't know.....fine.
One thing is for sure, glad that nonsense is over. Only time will tell if California can once again become the proud state it was in education and prosperity and forward thinking.
Now, if we can only get rid of those damn unions. Some people only want, want, want and don't want to contribute. They don't seem to care that food (and transportation) prices will go up just becaue of their selfish gains. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 02:02:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
People actually read Prop 54. It was defeated by a two to one margin.
There was a massive campaign against 54 with lies that it was a health issue. I don't think people did read it or they 'read' something into it that wasn't there. They were scared by the ads, the phoney ads.
quote:
Here in the US, we are still struggling with race relations. Blacks were considered second class citizens (and treated as such by the government) until the early 1960's. We've begun dealing with it, but it's a long road to change the attitudes imbedded in our society for over 200 years. Studies show that the US culture still discriminates based on race in hiring practices
Do you only watch the evening news that shows negative views of certain races?
What about the blacks who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.? Do you think they only live in the inner city dealing drugs?
Whatever studies you have, I'm sure there are others that show that minorities are not as bad off as you want to portray.
Blacks are not the only ones who were second class citizens. Many others from various nations and backgrounds were discreminated against. Many have gone on and overcome that. If you keep telling someone he is not doing well and needs help then he will not try to help himself. If you don't educate someone but only give them 'handouts', that's all they will expect. Groups that control those handouts want to stay in business therefore they have an interest in perpetuating the sterotype.
As for listing what race one is, there is not need to. None that the school could explain to me. All I wanted was my boy to learn, what he was, was no business of the government for purpose of his education. I don't want him getting into school and having someone say....it was because he was a minority, I'd like them to think it's because he earned the right to go there because of his grades or other criteria. Likewise, everyone else should be judged on their ability and not be given points for being a certain color. |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2003 : 12:56:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Snake
There was a massive campaign against 54 with lies that it was a health issue. I don't think people did read it or they 'read' something into it that wasn't there. They were scared by the ads, the phoney ads.
When a broad consensus of opinion among people who work every day in public health, including former Surgeons General, warns that a measure as written will outlaw a technique which is harmless to the individual and useful in identifying what sectors of society are most impacted by particular problems, so that we can target our responses where they will do the most good and thus avoid wasting the public substance , it deserves more serious consideration than to be summarily dismissed as "lies" and "phoney ads".
Have you even considered the possibility that 66% of the voters concluded, as I did, that there are better ways to become "color-blind" than by sticking needles into our eyeballs?
[quote}
Blacks are not the only ones who were second class citizens. Many others from various nations and backgrounds were discreminated against. Many have gone on and overcome that.
[/quote]
Very nice. Now, as support for the assumed commonality of experience necessary to your "why can't they pull themselves up by their bootstraps just like so-and-so did" argument, which of these ethnic groups have been:
Brought here by force and against their will?
Enslaved, bought and sold as chattel property for several hundred years, and then
Systematically and with the connivance of authority denied the vote, despite their holding perfectly valid citizenship?
Regularly subjected to mob violence? (of 4743 recorded lynchings in the U.S. between 1882 and 1968, 3446, or 72.65%, of the victims were black. In the former Confederate states the figures are 3029 out of 3521, or 86%. Source: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html)
Legally excluded from the use of many public facilities, save inferior ones designated specifically for them?
Subjected to terrorist violence both by constipated authority and private citizens when they began organizing to exercise their legal right to vote?
Please use all the space you need to make your list. I suspect you won't need much. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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