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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2003 : 22:00:13 [Permalink]
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I can't talk long but I wanted to say a couple things.
quote:
The trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the Old Testament. (Jesus hadn't even been born yet. )
Nor is it mentioned in all the New Testament. "Holy Trinity" is a phrase used to describe the three person the bible depicts. Jesus not having been born does not have anything to do with it. He was there already just not in human form.
quote:
I asked this question of my pastor when I was 11. He told me that unbaptized babies who died would suffer in hell just like adults who didn't accept Jesus. That's why I wanted you to ask this of your pastor.
This is what I consider to be the fundamental contradiction in the philosophy of most anti-abortionists. Many believe that it is just for their god to torture innocent children for not believing even though they are incapable of believing, but they oppose abortion.
For one thing that is coming from a completly Catholic point of view. I have made clear that I am not in any way Catholic. I don't believe in infant baptism. I believe in believer baptism.(I myself at 15yrs old, have not been baptised though I will be this October)
And now for the THIRD time. I do NOT, and do NOT claim to know what happens to a baby if it dies before it can understand. I tell you time and time again, yet you still shoot things like "you believe baby's can go to hell, and you don't believe in abortion". Try reading what I say before telling me what you think I am doing wrong.
--Adam-- |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 03:39:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I can't talk long but I wanted to say a couple things.
quote:
I asked this question of my pastor when I was 11. He told me that unbaptized babies who died would suffer in hell just like adults who didn't accept Jesus. That's why I wanted you to ask this of your pastor.
This is what I consider to be the fundamental contradiction in the philosophy of most anti-abortionists. Many believe that it is just for their god to torture innocent children for not believing even though they are incapable of believing, but they oppose abortion.
For one thing that is coming from a completly Catholic point of view. I have made clear that I am not in any way Catholic. I don't believe in infant baptism. I believe in believer baptism.(I myself at 15yrs old, have not been baptised though I will be this October)
And now for the THIRD time. I do NOT, and do NOT claim to know what happens to a baby if it dies before it can understand. I tell you time and time again, yet you still shoot things like "you believe baby's can go to hell, and you don't believe in abortion". Try reading what I say before telling me what you think I am doing wrong.
--Adam--
Try reading what I wrote before responding. My opinion this time was general and not directed at you specifically.
I would like to find out what your church's answers are to the following questions:
1. Are people who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior condemned to hell for all eternity?
2. If the answer to #1 is yes, does this condemnation include babies who are too young to comprehend?
-- TW
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 07:46:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chainsaw
To Valiant Dancer,
I don't mean to offend but you've gotten yourself quite up on a righteous high horse about this.
Okay, so you work in healthcare. Well, so do I .. my wife is a psychologist and I am a healthcare operations consultant. So what. Do I detect a grasp at an argument from authority? Authority doesn't count when you're taking about real lives here. There are many PhDs who don't know how to operate a water fountain.
I agree, being hit by lightning is extremely remote, but it does happen to several hundred folks every year. So try telling them that they must suffer because public policy can't deal with small numbers.
And try telling the doctor that just walked into your exam room who says his hands are legally tied that he is a “Classic Argumentum Ad Ignorantum.” And the nearest person of compassion you can find next to Georgia is in Kansas.
You republicans just love to see people suffer for your principles.
Exactly how prevalent or frequent must my experience become before you will no longer consider it a “false dilemma”? Please draw the line for me and justify why one less is irrelevant.
EVERY third trimester termination is a personal tragedy, a family tragedy and a societal tragedy that deserves compassion and not your righteous claim that the suffering is appropriately within the law. How cruel.
You and your narrow-minded law have no right, morally or ethically, to force my family to suffer a financial or emotional injustice. This was not god punishing my family or me for something for which we should pay a lifetime of penitence. It was an accident of nature that nature didn't take care of. I have a family to support and nurture, and I will protect it as I see fit.
I sincerely hope you are never faced with the same "false delemma" but lightning strikes somewhere everyday.
BTW, one thing we do agree on, your human compassion is “not applicable”.
A few MAJOR corrections to your post.
In the 14 years that I have been in healthcare, I have NEVER heard a provider shy away from medical necessity. The CDC numbers indicate that third trimester abortions do occur and are done in most states of the union. That you were unable to find a person of compassion indacates that you didn't find a person within the borders of your state, not that one did not exist.
Then you accuse me of being a Republican? Where in the sam-holy-fuck did you pull that out of your ass? I am not a Republican nor a Democrat. I am an Independant with Libertarian leanings.
Righteous high horse? For answering what I would do in a given situation? Am I missing something here? Get your head out of your fucking issue and actually read the post you wrote and my response.
"Okay, now try to find a provider in any state who will read the fine print of their state's limitations for that "clause" and be willing to take their chances with it. Maybe things have changed for the better since 1994, but I don't think so. I would bet that it has gotten worse." is what you said. You are making an assumption based on your personal experiences in 1994. You are argueing from ignorance because you have not looked into anything else but your personal experience.
In this society, whether you like it or not, we have morals which are set by the majority of it's members. The majority of the members of this society consider a fetus a potential human which gains rights as it nears viability. The society has determined that at the end of the first trimester, the child (who has started generating an independant EKG) may no longer be terminated on demand and requires a medical necessity. My comment on this is that the law exists. Whether you choose to abide by it, b |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 09:37:38 [Permalink]
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I got rather sidetracked from the point I had wanted to make in all my arguing with creation88.
Christians' Bible-based religious arguments against abortion are contradicted by the many stories in the Bible where god kills, or has the Israelites kill, babies. Beyond that, the belief that only those who accept Jesus will go to heaven means accepting that babies who die will go to hell and endure the alleged torments of that place.
I consider mass infanticide and eternal infant torture to be immoral.
I do not hold with abortion as a means of post-conception birth control, however I can think of exceptions (e.g. catastrophic simultaneous loss of spouse, housing, job, and med. insurance) that I could not argue against.
A friend of mine volunteers for an organization (can't recall name) that seeks to eliminate most abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies. They work to educate teenagers. They do push abstinence, but they back it up with education on contraception and prevention of STDs. (If you can't hold to our moral standards, then at least don't be stupid.)
TW
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2003 : 20:46:59 [Permalink]
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V-D
Sir, if you don't mind me saying, you are the one arguing from ignorance.
Maybe you need a few more details to expose the absurdity of your righteous condemnation. Your apparent assumption that we were somehow disconnected from health professionals is false. Quite the contrary, we had the best available at our fingertips. Our "case" was immediately referred to the dept head of the neonatology service of the second largest baby hospital in the US, Northside Hospital, Atlanta, Georgia.
The doctor was Harvard educated, widely published, and also Chief of Neonatology at Emory University. He had worldwide connections, and he was the one who said there were only three providers in the US that COULD accept us. Sorry I didn't have time to sue him for more references.
Several caring people from the hospital social services, supported by our neonatologist and an assigned case manager from our insurance plan worked for three days to get us our referral. Available everywhere, from any hospital, by any provider? Yea, right. You better check the fine print of that law you think protects and is fair to everyone. Someone is fooling you.
So now who's arguing from ignorance? You may be smugly comfortable with what you read in the CDC glossary, but you ought to close that book and get up and walk around outside. If you think the world is tidy, you need to work the garbage truck awhile.
Care to retract you statements "your hypothetical is extremely unlikely to the point of absurdity" and "It is a completely specious example" and "The conditions you describe do not exist in the real word"?
And now about the false dilemma. There are only two choices. Either you terminate or not. There is no half way. Where's your other options? Your Disney World version of reality is a hoax. Get out of your softball fantasy, the game that being played is hardball for keeps. You either grasp control for your family or you forfeit you future to the state. I'll keep my family, if you don't mind.
Yes, I do have a have a better suggesting for the law. Get the law out of making absurd medical decisions and leave that to the family and their doctor. Pregnancy is a continuum, you can't draw arbitrary lines without hurting the innocent and eventually looking foolish.
Am I bitching? You bet. I had the fortunate pleasure at the time of living in Newt Gingrich's district and I have spent hours in his office appealing before his groupies and testifying before committees. What good did it do? Like I said, republicans love to see people suffer for their republican principles.
I have given of my time and my money. I will not give up my family. Is that enough bitchin' for you?
And finally about the child, Annie. We loved that child from the time it was conceived. We rocked her little body for hours. We made a choice that was in the best interest of that child and our family. It was moral, ethical, and right. And those trying to deny us our right to make those choices in the interest of the family and society, should examine closely the unintended consequences of their narrow-minded busybody actions.
And sorry, but if one walks like a republican, quacks like a republican, I call ‘em a republican. If it stings a bit so be it. Maybe you should sit down with Newt over a cup of coffee. You have more in common than you realize.
BTW, I'm really amused by your adept use of vocabulary, particularly fuck, ass and shit. Did you learn that in school or does it come naturally? It's really becoming of you. Your compassion overwhelms me.
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You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
| Edited by - chainsaw on 09/17/2003 21:06:38 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2003 : 07:00:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chainsaw
V-D
Sir, if you don't mind me saying, you are the one arguing from ignorance.
Maybe you need a few more details to expose the absurdity of your righteous condemnation. Your apparent assumption that we were somehow disconnected from health professionals is false. Quite the contrary, we had the best available at our fingertips. Our "case" was immediately referred to the dept head of the neonatology service of the second largest baby hospital in the US, Northside Hospital, Atlanta, Georgia.
The doctor was Harvard educated, widely published, and also Chief of Neonatology at Emory University. He had worldwide connections, and he was the one who said there were only three providers in the US that COULD accept us. Sorry I didn't have time to sue him for more references.
Several caring people from the hospital social services, supported by our neonatologist and an assigned case manager from our insurance plan worked for three days to get us our referral. Available everywhere, from any hospital, by any provider? Yea, right. You better check the fine print of that law you think protects and is fair to everyone. Someone is fooling you.
So now who's arguing from ignorance? You may be smugly comfortable with what you read in the CDC glossary, but you ought to close that book and get up and walk around outside. If you think the world is tidy, you need to work the garbage truck awhile.
Care to retract you statements "your hypothetical is extremely unlikely to the point of absurdity" and "It is a completely specious example" and "The conditions you describe do not exist in the real word"?
And now about the false dilemma. There are only two choices. Either you terminate or not. There is no half way. Where's your other options? Your Disney World version of reality is a hoax. Get out of your softball fantasy, the game that being played is hardball for keeps. You either grasp control for your family or you forfeit you future to the state. I'll keep my family, if you don't mind.
Yes, I do have a have a better suggesting for the law. Get the law out of making absurd medical decisions and leave that to the family and their doctor. Pregnancy is a continuum, you can't draw arbitrary lines without hurting the innocent and eventually looking foolish.
Am I bitching? You bet. I had the fortunate pleasure at the time of living in Newt Gingrich's district and I have spent hours in his office appealing before his groupies and testifying before committees. What good did it do? Like I said, republicans love to see people suffer for their republican principles.
I have given of my time and my money. I will not give up my family. Is that enough bitchin' for you?
And finally about the child, Annie. We loved that child from the time it was conceived. We rocked her little body for hours. We made a choice that was in the best interest of that child and our family. It was moral, ethical, and right. And those trying to deny us our right to make those choices in the interest of the family and society, should examine closely the unintended consequences of their narrow-minded busybody actions.
And sorry, but if one walks like a republican, quacks like a republican, I call ‘em a republican. If it stings a bit so be it. Maybe you should sit down with Newt over a cup of coffee. You have more in common than you realize.
BTW, I'm really amused by your adept use of vocabulary, particularly fuck, ass and shit. Did you learn that in school or does it come naturally? It's really becoming of you. Your compassion overwhelms me.
Again, out of date sources. Assumptions made on such sources. Logically invalid.
False Dilemma. You suggest have baby=financi |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2003 : 14:15:45 [Permalink]
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VD Guy
Let me get this straight..........
You're claiming “classic skeptic” grounds as reason to reject the credentials (not yet examined by you) of my neonatologist in order to tag him as incompetent and thus the reason for the world's suffering yet you have based you righteous position on some fuzzy soul implantation construct at some magic trimester minute??
Uuuuuh . . . Okay ? ?
I believe I'll rest my case your honor.
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You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
| Edited by - chainsaw on 09/18/2003 17:59:41 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2003 : 16:15:22 [Permalink]
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C88, did I read somewhere in this thread--or perhaps another thread--that you're 15 years old?
If so,  . Kudos to you for the courage to step into the ring with the smart, skilled debators here (not including me in that group; I'm just a newbie).
I apologize if I was condescending with you. Sometimes it's hard to be fair about something that's close to your heart. And even a leftist agnostic wiseacre like me has a heart.  |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2003 : 07:50:32 [Permalink]
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Hey VD Guy, one more thing.
You paint a pretty picture for living on government disability and raising your vegetables.
You may be right. I should reconsider.
But aren't they cutting those funds in half so SS doesn't go bankrupt?
Don't you have to prove your vegetable can't work? How often must you submit your proof?
And don't they only just give you money and not time or emotional support?
Why are the lines so long at the SS offices? And why aren't those people smiling?
And what if you need a raise cause expenses are growing faster than funds? Do you have to write your congressman for that? How long does it take for them to vote an increase? What do you do in the meantime?
Me thinks you should give up your day job and live that way yourself. I'm sure you can be just as happy and fulfilled and your family will also. Besides, god has chosen that lifestyle for you knowing you will be a better person for it.
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You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
| Edited by - chainsaw on 09/19/2003 07:56:17 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2003 : 07:51:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chainsaw
VD Guy
Let me get this straight..........
You're claiming “classic skeptic” grounds as reason to reject the credentials (not yet examined by you) of my neonatologist in order to tag him as incompetent and thus the reason for the world's suffering yet you have based you righteous position on some fuzzy soul implantation construct at some magic trimester minute??
Uuuuuh . . . Okay ? ?
I believe I'll rest my case your honor.
How you actually constructed this strawman arguement is beyond me.
The credentials of your neonatologist is not a question. However, the ultrasound should have revealed severe deformities such as no arms or legs quite early. Nor do I deem that person responsible for the world's suffering. Perhaps their lack of knowledge or lack of proper care caused the severe physical deformities to go unnoticed for so long. The other problem concerns that with no arms or legs, the fetus would not have moved appreciably. This sign screams out that there is a problem well before the third trimester. I question the competence of the provider. You might do well to sue for malpractice. (This is from experience with pregnant people. The baby moves and kicks unless there is a serious problem.)
My personal belief of when a fetus gains rights was at the time of independant EKG waves. This is the norm for society. My personal theology bolsters this belief, not is the source for the belief. No righteousness here.
Again, no support for your position, just more namecalling.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2003 : 08:05:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chainsaw
Hey VD Guy, one more thing.
You paint a pretty picture for living on government disability and raising your vegetables.
You may be right. I should reconsider.
But aren't they cutting those funds in half so SS doesn't go bankrupt?
Don't you have to prove you can't work?
And don't they only just give you money and not time or emotional support?
Why are the lines so long at the SS offices? And why aren't those people smiling?
And what if you need a raise cause expenses are growing faster than funds? Do you have to write your congressman for that? How long does it take for them to vote an increase? What do you do in the meantime?
Me thinks you should give up you day job and live that way yourself. I'm sure you can be just as happy and fulfilled and your family will also. Besides, god has chosen that lifestyle for you knowing you will be a better person for it.
Who are these "they" you keep talking about?
Social Security can grant disability to a child when it is obvious that the child will never be able to work. Your case should be quite obvious.
Funding being cut just tends to reduce funding to the providers. Medical care is covered under Medicare.
The government only gives you money. You were complaining about the economic effect it would have on your family.
Lines being long at Social Security and those people not smiling is not germaine to the arguement. Typical Prejudical language logical fallacy.
Medical care is covered under Medicare. Providers cannot bill Medicare for more than they will pay for and the rest cannot be collected from the patient per Medicare rules. I thought you said you were in healthcare.
More namecalling. Same unsupported claims. Some intimation that I'm part of the Christian right. I don't think they accept Wiccans like me.
Continued non-support for your position does not help your arguement. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2003 : 08:07:37 [Permalink]
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How did you get so much information about my case that you can make such informed judgements and provide such detailed advice? I think you have just violated HIPAA.
Let me tell you this, the baby moved.
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You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2003 : 08:11:43 [Permalink]
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| I need to talk to someone whose feet are planted in reality. I never really understood fantasy and fairy tales very well anyway. |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2003 : 08:33:49 [Permalink]
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| SSI is not Medicare. I thought you said you were in healthcare? |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2003 : 08:43:52 [Permalink]
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I've read that most Medicare receipients are extremely satisfied with their medical coverage. Can you tell me what percent of outpatient medications they pay for? Is it 100% or some other percent?
[answer: 0%] |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
| Edited by - chainsaw on 09/19/2003 10:05:37 |
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