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Paladin
Skeptic Friend

USA
100 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2003 :  10:57:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Paladin a Private Message
You naughty boy!

Paladin
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Les
Skeptic Friend

59 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2003 :  20:34:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Les's Homepage Send Les a Private Message
Those are some good points, Woody. But I have some questions and comments.

quote:
Originally posted by Woody D


o Government should relax regulation of Big Business

Well, yes. It should.


In your opinion, what kind should be relaxed and which, if any, should be enforced?


quote:

o “Standing Tall for America” means firing your workers and moving their jobs to India.

Because until Big Business gets it they will have to go elsewhere.
Damn unions.


Certainly, you agree that there are big businesses that are making huge profits while at the same time firing Americans to hire foreign workers? I don't think that should necessarily be illegal, but it's hardly patriotic or even decent. What do you think?


quote:

o Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

If Jesus hates Hillary, I'm for Jesus.


Hell, I'm far, far from a Republican, but I share your dislike of this opportunistic wench ("wench" being a nice, old English word for what I think she is, along with most politicians, of course)


quote:

o Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.


It is Socialism. And it's not a fair way to take money from one person and give it to another.


What, in your opinion, can we do about the ever-increasing cost of health-care (is "gouging" an appropriate word, here?) and those Americans who are going bankrupt because of it?

quote:

o The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.

Yes the public does have the right to know about Hillary, because people with the power to make laws about business can't be doing business while representing the public. But personal matters such as driving tickets are not the concern of anyone else.


I agree with you here, but wouldn't you agree that the Republicans (and plenty of Democrats, too) in Washington are neck deep in financial conflicts of interest. Look at Richard Perle, for example, who I have even more distaste for than Hillary.

quote:

o You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have a right to adopt.

States rights are most important. Or else we wouldn't be able to have favorable abortion laws for example. How can the Attorney General tell states what to do?



Ashcroft has interfered in a number of states and their own, distince policies. Whether it's assisted suicide in Oregon or marijuana initiatives all over, the man is acting like a rather petty despot (and a fundamentalist petty despot at that).
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gezzam
SFN Regular

Australia
751 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2003 :  21:25:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit gezzam's Homepage Send gezzam a Private Message
quote:
o The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.

Yes the public does have the right to know about Hillary, because people with the power to make laws about business can't be doing business while representing the public. But personal matters such as driving tickets are not the concern of anyone else.


Well, it has shown the hypocrisy of the GOP. They spent 70 million going after Clinton and the Whitewater affair, however any of the shady deals Dubya and his cronies have done (and there are plenty) are under lock and key never to be seen.

For example, from Paul Krugman

quote:
Mr. Bush claims that he was "vetted" by the S.E.C. In fact, the agency's investigation was peculiarly perfunctory. It somehow decided that Mr. Bush's perfectly timed stock sale did not reflect inside information without interviewing him, or any other members of Harken's board. Maybe top officials at the S.E.C. felt they already knew enough about Mr. Bush: his father, the president, had appointed a good friend as S.E.C. chairman. And the general counsel, who would normally make decisions about legal action, had previously been George W. Bush's personal lawyer -- he negotiated the purchase of the Texas Rangers. I am not making this up.


The Whitehouse in inhabited by a bunch of lying criminals who will stop at nothing for a quick buck. They wrap themselves up in your flag and call themselves patriots, but will dreide those who oppose them as unpatriotic. What's worse is that they seem to be immune to prosecution. The more I read about it, the more I shake my head. The world has a lot to thank America for (and, honestly, a little bit to be angry about), but these guys are undoing it all in record time.

Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.

Al Franken
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2003 :  22:09:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
Les wrote:
quote:
What, in your opinion, can we do about the ever-increasing cost of health-care (is "gouging" an appropriate word, here?) and those Americans who are going bankrupt because of it?
I'm not Woody, but "fixing" health care (meaning lowering costs to consumers) would involve, at a minimum: more and more serious investigation and penalties for insurance fraud; elimination of insurance payments for non-lower-back chiropratic care; mandating that all so-called "alternative medicine" demonstrate efficacy to the same standard as mainstream medicine prior to being able to peddle it in any fashion; elimination of patent fraud and patent extensions; price limits on drugs relative to the percentage of the population which could benefit from them (and base cost to produce); prohibition of useless "drug company reps"; regulation of health-related and diet books as if they were doctor-to-patient medical advice; prohibition of direct-to-consumer advertising of prescription drugs; increased license forfiture for malpractice (but with limits on malpractice lawsuit penalty awards). I'm sure there's more, I'm just losing my chain of thought.

Some of these things have already begun, at least on a small level. For example, after The Yeast Connection became popular, and "yeast doctors" started making lots of diagnoses of yeast infections where they probably did not exist, my insurance company (at least) began demanding positive standardized fungal tests prior to approving any prescription for antifungal medication. Of course, since that means extra work for my insurance company, it means higher premiums for me. Several of the items above, combined, could have driven such quacks out of business long ago, resulting in lower premiums for everyone.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  00:56:58   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Les

Those are some good points, Woody. But I have some questions and comments.

quote:
Originally posted by Woody D


o Government should relax regulation of Big Business

Well, yes. It should.


In your opinion, what kind should be relaxed and which, if any, should be enforced?



Who knows every business law? In general I say there are too many restrictions on companies. Leaves of absence, disabled facilities, mimimum wage. Those are a few that come to mind that are out of control. Who and under what conditions a company hires someone is none of the governments' business (in most cases, reasonable safety being an exception).


quote:


quote:

o “Standing Tall for America” means firing your workers and moving their jobs to India.

Because until Big Business gets it they will have to go elsewhere.
Damn unions.


Certainly, you agree that there are big businesses that are making huge profits while at the same time firing Americans to hire foreign workers? I don't think that should necessarily be illegal, but it's hardly patriotic or even decent. What do you think?



"should necessarily be illegal"? It shouldn't be illegal at all.
Decent? Well, if the US government spends so much on foreign aid, why is it so indecent that businesses spend money in other countries too? Build up their economy and they will buy goods from us!

Is capitalism unpatriotic? If a company can make money buy hiring less expensive labor and make money for it's stockholders, Americans are making money. How is that unpatriotic? The stockmarket is one of the few decent ways to get a head too.
Anyway, in the world today it's difficult to say what companies are solely American, therefore patriotic to America, when everything is so 'global'. I can hardly keep up with all the companies that are combining so often. We used to drive a certain kind of foreign car but then another major American car company took it over so we decided not to buy that brand again. It's happening everyday, who's to say what's loyal to one country or another anymore?
There's even trouble within! It's being said that Walmart is destroying bussiness too. And that's HERE in America.

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  01:33:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Les
What, in your opinion, can we do about the ever-increasing cost of health-care (is "gouging" an appropriate word, here?) and those Americans who are going bankrupt because of it?


Like with education it's not so simple and basic as what is on the surface.
Doctors should have the right to charge what they want because they spent a lot of money going to college. So in that part of it, it's the cost of schooling that contributes to that expense.
Fraud and illegal aliens are another cost. That's the blame of the government.
While nurses are under paid, (my mother was an RN, my sister and my aunt, so I know about that), there has to be better management in hospitals to organize work loads and expenses. Like with schools, the top officials get too much pay for too little work and not as important work. Perhaps then patient care would be better and less costly.
And like with the stories we heard about $4oo toilet seats for airplanes in the government, we also hear about a $10 aspirin pill. Guess that comes under fraud (on the part of the hospital to cheat ins. companies).
Are there really so many people going bankrupt do to medical problems? But in any case, yes, something should be done. Maybe if the government wasn't involved that would get rid of some of the cheating and over charges on Medicare.
And for those who are in debt, that starts with education at an early age. In grammar school, children should be taught to save (for the future) and not spend more than they have. Then they wouldn't grow up to get a job with the government and think they can go on spending 'other peoples money' or grow up to go on welfare, taking 'other peoples money'.
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  01:53:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Les
I agree with you here, but wouldn't you agree that the Republicans (and plenty of Democrats, too) in Washington are neck deep in financial conflicts of interest. Look at Richard Perle, for example, who I have even more distaste for than Hillary.

Don't know anything about a Richard Perle. But yes I do believe there are plenty of polititions who do many underhanded things. Hillary is just most prominant for obvious reasons. Perhaps we should use her as just a basic example rather than a major problem. We probably don't hear of so many more situations.

quote:

Ashcroft has interfered in a number of states and their own, distince policies. Whether it's assisted suicide in Oregon or marijuana initiatives all over, the man is acting like a rather petty despot (and a fundamentalist petty despot at that).


He's not supposed to do that. Many fundamentalists do try to force their opinions and way of life on others but we are supposed to have counter balances in government. The will of the people! And all that!
My cousin lives in Oregon, I'll have to check on that suicide law. I thought it's still in force (I mean that it is still legal to have help killing yourself). Side note: as for the will of the people, my cousin is not big on politics, as far as I know, but she does belong to some weird religious 'cult' so she might very well agree with Ashcroft, as is her right.
Therefore, if Ashcroft is in office, the people put him there. It's up to people to vote out what they don't like.

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Tim
SFN Regular

USA
775 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  05:22:47   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tim a Private Message
Ah, Woody D, you wouldn't have called yourself Snake in a previous SFN life, would you? If so, I understand the previous comments. If not, then I'm curious....
quote:
If a company can make money buy hiring less expensive labor and make money for it's stockholders, Americans are making money.
Have you associated this statement with American patriotism? I would think that profiteering is no more patriotic than it is unpatriotic.

Furthermore, if a company makes more money by hiring less expensive labor, (assuming corporate survival is not at issue), then all that occurs is that money goes directly to the 'investment' class, effectively by-passing the working class completely. Does taking from the working class, the largest economic group of Americans, and giving to the upper class, the smallest economic group of Americans, really make fiscal sense?

Corporate profit-making is not a cure all for the woes of the hard working people of this nation. Giving a wealthy person a few extra tens of thousands of dollars does not guarantee that he or she is going to buy a service, hire another employee or even re-invest into the future of the company from which he or she drew that capital. That capital may either be invested abroad, or re-invested into short term market considerations. This effectively strips the worker of any benefit he or she may have had from the capital that only that worker is able to produce.

On the other hand, divide those dollars among a much larger group of workers and they will most probably spend the money on goods and services, and that capital will eventually filter back up through the class structure. Even if the worker invests the dollars in some type of savings fund, the upper or investment class will still be able to use that capital for it's own investment purposes. This is what makes the banking industry profitable.

Woody, you need to remember that only labor can produce capital. Taking away ever increasing percentages of capital from the working class can lead to reduced production, a hostile and embittered populace and perhaps even class warfare.

It is not the corporate CEO and the investment class that keeps an economy healthy, but the hard work of everyday people like you and me.

And, Woody, if you really want to get all wet with patriotism and Nationalism, it may help for you to know that our founding fathers had little love for corporations.
http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/CorporateControlOfAmerica_06-02.html
http://www.newint.org/issue347/history.htm
http://www.populist.com/6.96.Fixing.Corps.html

"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  07:31:43   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
I'm really tired of every social program, no matter how small or beneficial, being labeled "socialism". It's typical of the propaganda spewed by the right wing.

America has been conditioned to have a near-phobic reaction to the mere word "socialism." I'd laugh if this didn't have such a bad effect on our nation's policies.

We already have government-funded health care: Medicaid and Medicare, both of which have dramatically improved the health and well-being of this country.

Perhaps the most important point: we pay to take care of the health of our fellow Americans--regardless of whether we do it in the form of Medicaid, Medicare, high hospital costs, or high insurance premiums.

Part of why hospitals charge $40 for an aspirin is because they have to get money from sources who actually have it: the insured and insurance companies. Hospitals, by law, must treat anyone who walks through their doors. That includes homeless people, drug addicts, criminals, and just plain poor folks who walk away without paying a dime.

We have a staggering number of uninsured Americans, especially children. We pay to take care of the 2-year old who ends up in the ER with an ear infection because her uninsured parents couldn't afford to take her to a primary care doc in the early stages of her cold. We won't pay for a poor woman's mammogram, but when she gets breast cancer, we pay tens of thousands of dollars for a mastectomy and reconstructive surgery. How foolish and short-sighted Americans are.

Insurance companies cover less and less. Medicaid and Medicare reimburse doctors at dwindling rates. Basic medical costs get higher and higher. That means the middle class pays more and more for basic health insurance and has less for investments, home ownership, college education, or even food.

The health care crisis is indeed complex, but to dismiss it as simply corruption or ineptitude misses the mark.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  08:34:24   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Les


quote:

o Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.


It is Socialism. And it's not a fair way to take money from one person and give it to another.


What, in your opinion, can we do about the ever-increasing cost of health-care (is "gouging" an appropriate word, here?) and those Americans who are going bankrupt because of it?




Gouging is not an appropriate word. The ever increasing cost of healthcare is due to several factors.

1) Skyrocketing malpractice insurance premiums. In Illinois, providers pay $100,000 per year. If in OB/Gyne, you get double points to $150,000 per year.

2) Increased cost of supplies.

3) Bad debt. Providers are not allowed to turn people away in critical care situations. Quite a few run up huge hospital bills and then skip out paying nothing. Mostly illegals.

4) Government bad debt. AKA Medicare/Medicaid. Medicare is slow to pay (9 months to pay for service and you only can push for reimbursement 18 months from time of service.) and pays what they want. The past two years, they have cut their reimbursement 5% in each of those years. They have cut reimbursement to the point that some providers have opted out of the Medicare program because it costs too much to provide service. In some cases, Medicare has cut reimbursement below what it costs to do the procedure. Don't get me started on the unbundling crap. Medicaid is even worse. With these programs, if the provider gives service and Medicare declines to pay for the service, the provider cannot go after the Medicare patient for it unless the patient signs a billing responsibility waiver.


To answer your question, fund Medicare more fully. Pay at least what it costs to do the procedure. Stop changing Medicare reimbursement rules on the fly. (a cause for more than one Medicare fraud suit) Investigate the insurance companies business practices. Place reasonable limits on "pain and suffering" damages. (Economic damages should be unfettered.)

There is no money in health care unless you are a pharmecutecal company. Also, most of your cost comes from these companies.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard

USA
5310 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  09:22:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Gorgo a Private Message
If it's socialism, so be it. It's also right. And it costs a pittance compared to what the government spends to make sure the poor get poorer and the wealthy get wealthier.

I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter



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nfidel 42
New Member

14 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2003 :  19:09:41   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send nfidel 42 a Private Message
quote:

There is no money in health care unless you are a pharmecutecal company.



Hmmm... I've yet to meet a doctor who lives in a trailer.

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend

Thailand
285 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2003 :  00:47:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Woody D a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Tim

Ah, Woody D, you wouldn't have called yourself Snake in a previous SFN life, would you?


Yes, it is I, Snake (NormaL) as I have mentioned in several other posts since I started using the new name. Sometimes I forget to sign the ends of posts but names don't matter it's the thoughts.


quote:
Have you associated this statement with American patriotism? I would think that profiteering is no more patriotic than it is unpatriotic.

I don't understand what you mean.

quote:

Furthermore, if a company makes more money by hiring less expensive labor, (assuming corporate survival is not at issue), then all that occurs is that money goes directly to the 'investment' class, effectively by-passing the working class completely.

What's this 'class' nonsense. Anyone can invest and indeed many companies have stock options for their employees. That's how I got into the market.
If people didn't think the maket was so mysterious or give excuses, like 'I don't have enough money to put in', then they too could be the 'investment class' as you like to say. It's no big deal. If someone just wants to stay where they are and complain, fine. But there's no reason to do that.


quote:
Does taking from the working class, the largest economic group of Americans, and giving to the upper class, the smallest economic group of Americans, really make fiscal sense?

What???
Who's taking from the working class except the damn government with high taxes?

quote:
Corporate profit-making is not a cure all for the woes of the hard working people of this nation. Giving a wealthy person a few extra tens of thousands of dollars does not guarantee that he or she is going to buy a service, hire another employee or even re-invest into the future of the company from which he or she drew that capital. That capital may either be invested abroad, or re-invested into short term market considerations. This effectively strips the worker of any benefit he or she may have had from the capital that only that worker is able to produce.

That really makes no sense, I can't begin to answer.
What do you think a wealthy person does with his money? Just stash it under his bed, so he can say, look at me I'm richer than you!!! Are you jealous or something? There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from being rich if that's what you want. Someone else having money doesn't make you poor.

quote:
On the other hand, divide those dollars among a much larger group of workers and they will most probably spend the money on goods and services, and that capital will eventually filter back up through the class structure. Even if the worker invests the dollars in some type of savings fund, the upper or investment class will still be able to use that capital for it's own investment purposes. This is what makes the banking industry profitable.

What is wrong with your brain? People who have various amounts of money spend it. Everyone needs to eat. So if a person can afford to eat at an expensive resturant are you saying he shouldn't enjoy himself. The people who work in that place benifit from his choice to eat there. Are you saying everyone should eat at hambuger drive ins? Everyone has to come down to the 'working class' because you don't like someone else to have what you don't?

quote:
It is not the corporate CEO and the investment class that keeps an economy healthy, but the hard work of everyday people like you and me.

Oh please! Someone has to have the idea to start a company, keep it running, invest his hard earned money to start it and keep it going in rough times. Yes, we all do our jobs and get paid but are you willing to put up money to start a company, not knowing if it will fail, are you willing to take the risks involved in starting a company? If you did try, I bet you'd too want some benifit more than what the average worker you hired, for risking so much. You would and should benifit more than what you pay someone to do a days work and who could quit anytime for a better job. And you'd be stuck with your company and the worry of running it. If you don't like the 'investment class' because they have more than you, go start your own business and stop complaining.

quote:
And, Woody, if you really want to get all wet with patriotism and Nationalism, it may help for you to know that our founding fathers had little love for corporations.


Perhaps they didn't like them, I don't know. I don't care. I have never been one for patriotism. And certainly not for the USA.

www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2003 :  06:59:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by nfidel 42

quote:

There is no money in health care unless you are a pharmecutecal company.



Hmmm... I've yet to meet a doctor who lives in a trailer.



Then you should look at their debts as well. It's pretty sizable. Most need to join hospitals or health clinics. You don't see many solo practioners anymore. You should also take a look at how their staff is paid compared to the rest of the job positions in other industries.

Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils

Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion
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Renae
SFN Regular

543 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2003 :  07:45:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Renae a Private Message
Woody, you live in a fantasy world.

Why, certainly the poor can invest in the stock market. A single working mom making $20,000 a year has the exact same disposable income as Bill Gates, right? After paying for child care, health insurance (because her employer likely doesn't pay it), food, utilities, clothes, and rent, she has scads of money to invest. She can become wealthy in no time. /sarcasm off

You need to get over feeling like a victim of the government. It isn't the government that is sending jobs overseas. It isn't the government that lobbies to have ergonomic safety rules repealed. Wal-Mart refuses to let their employees unionize, and as a result, their employes make less than their peers in other companies. How is that the government's fault?

Doug Henwood writes about how the American dream of upward mobility is largely a myth. His cites research that shows that class movement upward happens only rarely. Example: The biggest predictor of our incomes is our parents' income. Statistically, most people don't go from being poor children to wealthy adults.

But corporate America has a vested interest in promoting the upward mobility myth, right? So that people will continue to work their asses off, contributing to corporate profits and then buying new TVs and other crap they really don't need....all in pursuit of an improbable American dream.

Here's Henwood from Moyers' website: http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_henwood.html

I haven't seen any counterarguments to Henwood or refuting statistics. He makes good sense.

And another thing : Hard-working frontline Enron and Qwest employees invested in their 401Ks and then lost all or nearly all of it. These working and middle class folks played by the rules and did what the Republicans keep telling us to do: they worked hard and invested. Their reward: the bottom falls out of their stock because the corporate leaders lied. These everyday folks lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and now must rely on *gasp* the government and social security when they retire.

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