|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2003 : 08:04:10 [Permalink]
|
Thanks Renae. I agree. Except that the government as it is is largely influenced by large corporations and the ultra-wealthy. Lobbyists, corporate media, etc. all show one side of the story. Not a coincidence that people swallow the "American Dream" idea and think that when the U.S. commits crimes all over the world, they're fighting "evil."
Government itself is not the problem. Oligarchy is the problem. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
 |
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2003 : 22:50:15 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
These everyday folks lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and now must rely on *gasp* the government and social security when they retire.
I'm really too tied now to argue with such nonsense.
1st of all I'm not a victom....of the government or anyone else. I'm trying to do my best in spite of what the government or if you want to say, big business or whoever.
And no matter what you think, people can invest (with little capital) and move upward.
And finally, those people who 'lost' hundreds of thousands of dollars didn't loose their money, they "LOST" their profits. Whatever else they lost in capital probably wasn't nearly as bad as some would like to have you think. Had they not been greedy or invested more wisely they would have diversified their holdings.
BTW, I lost a lot too in the market. Do you hear me complaining? Because I know it's a risk. And what I lost was more profit then capital too, so I'm not worse off than if I just had to money in the bank. The few companies who decieve workers and investors are not the norm, just as that mystical single mother who makes $20,000 a year. Who, btw, if she learned how to budget could do better. And btw makes almost double what my household income is. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 03:49:46 [Permalink]
|
Why aren't you rich?
quote:
There is nothing stopping you or anyone else from being rich if that's what you want.
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
nfidel 42
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 06:04:17 [Permalink]
|
quote:
just as that mystical single mother who makes $20,000 a year. Who, btw, if she learned how to budget could do better. And btw makes almost double what my household income is.
You would have me believe that you make less then $10,000 annually, yet have money to invest? I could believe this if you are living in your parents' basement and they pay all you bills.
And... you imply that single mothers rarely get by on less than $20,000, but then tell us you make half that? Am I misunderstanding something here? Maybe you live in Mexico. I don't know, but if all this is true, you really need to write a book. |
Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do." --Bertrand Russell |
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 07:49:53 [Permalink]
|
I'm never too tired to argue and it isn't nonsense.
My neighbor works at Qwest. His stock (via his 401K and I think options) went from $49 a share to about $1 a share when Qwest executives were indicted for fraud. He didn't lose his money in a high-risk stock game; he put his money where he was supposed to: in his 401K. That's where most people I know have the bulk of their retirement money. In case you haven't been paying attention, many mutual funds aren't safe either.
Gorgo poses a good question: why aren't you rich?
Second question: Do you have children? Do you have any clue at all as to how much child care, medical care, clothes, food, etc. cost? What if the child has a chronic illness? Or a learning disability? What if it's born with fetal alcohol syndrome or Downs syndrome? Chronic illnesses of any family member can do serious damage to even a middle-class family's financial well-being. Even an INSURED middle-class family's financial well-being.
I just did some work at an insurance brokerage. I saw health insurance rates for small businesses jump 10-40% in a year. The cost for a middle-aged employee, spouse, and child can run upwards of $1,000 a month. If that family had to pay for that level of coverage privately, it would likely cost the family even more. Yet the cost of NOT being insured can be even worse.
Above is just one example of how perilous middle class existence is.
People can do all the right things their whole lives and still end up in financial trouble. Divorce, death, serious illness, injury...shit happens even to good, responsible people. That's why we need the government to provide temporary safety nets. |
|
|
|
Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2003 : 17:57:18 [Permalink]
|
Actually, while I'm certain that some people do manage to rise above their economic resources via the stock market, I think Gorgo makes a legitimate point.
We're regularly reminded how badly the system is rigged toward the big investors and against the little guy. Take Enron, for example. I remember how, when their stock starting taking a nosedive, the executives were allowed to ditch their shares - likely dropping the value even more - while regular employees were prohibited from doing so with their 401k investments. All perfectly legal, of course - no doubt, due in part to the significant contributions made by Enron to our elected 'representatives' in Washington who write and approve the relevant laws.
Or consider the more recent scandal over mutual fund abuse, where the big boys were trading at lower prices after the bell. And those are just two off the top of my head. I'm sure if I Googled, I could find page after page of examples of how bad things are.
Incidentally, losses in 401ks can actually constitute loss of EARNINGS, for many (most?) are based upon employee contributions, sometimes matched in part by the employer. The more one loses, the more likely some of those losses are going to eat into what the employee actually contributed out of his weekly paycheck.
|
Paladin |
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2003 : 01:02:09 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Why aren't you rich?
I'm sorry Gorgo, what do you consider rich? Perhaps I can then better answer your question.
I will say though that my partner doesn't like me to discuss our finances or what we have. And early on in my employment with a large company I always turned down overtime work nor did I accept a supervisor position that was offered to me. So I didn't take those oppertunities to make more money....if you consider the amount of money one has as being rich. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2003 : 01:36:06 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by nfidel 42
You would have me believe that you make less then $10,000 annually, yet have money to invest? I could believe this if you are living in your parents' basement and they pay all you bills.
I did not say we live on less than 10, (although I would not starve if I did live on less than 10). It is a bit more than 10 but far less than 20. My mother and father are dead (and my bitch x-sister sold their house) and I do not live in a basement. I live in a car...LOL, just kidding.
quote:
I don't know, but if all this is true, you really need to write a book.
I have tried to give friends advice when they've asked or that is, told me they are having troubles. Most people, like with going on a diet to loose weight, just go back to their old habits, and can't follow through.
There are people who have written books or have business that use my same ideas or similar ones. Kills me that they are telling people....for a fee, what is just common sense. Even worse, I have to laugh when I hear the things they tell people and am in disbelief that people can't figure it out for themselves.
I just do what I've always done since I was little, about saving money, etc. Never read any books or anything but I do listen to the financial programs on TV and radio to get tips and current information. As I said, anyone can do that.
|
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2003 : 01:48:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
My neighbor works at Qwest
Ah shit! Don't remind me. US West was one of the best stocks in my portfolio. Sigh!
But again, what I lost was profit. (alas, I was greedy too and maybe a bit opptimistic and didn't follow my own advice and sell off when I should have.) The capital wasn't all that much. Just remember it's also a tax write off, it's not like there isn't any compensation. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2003 : 04:27:46 [Permalink]
|
Well, maybe I got it wrong, but I thought you said that anyone could be rich. I don't know that there is a big dividing line, but my idea of rich is much more than $20,000 a year in California. I'm not saying you should have more than that, I'm just wondering why you're not. If you think rich is not a good idea, then that's okay too.
I appreciate your thoughts on discipline, too. I used to hate that word. Now that I'm 50, I wish I'd have learned to like the word a long time ago. Make a choice, and follow through on it. It seems so simple, but yet seems so difficult at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gorgo
Why aren't you rich?
I'm sorry Gorgo, what do you consider rich? Perhaps I can then better answer your question.
I will say though that my partner doesn't like me to discuss our finances or what we have. And early on in my employment with a large company I always turned down overtime work nor did I accept a supervisor position that was offered to me. So I didn't take those oppertunities to make more money....if you consider the amount of money one has as being rich.
[/quote] |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2003 : 06:48:43 [Permalink]
|
I agree many people are foolish with money. I've gone without a lot of what some people consider necessities so that I can build up my savings. I don't trust the universe to look out for me, so I do it myself.
You have a partner, Woody. I'm assuming you've been single in the past, though. It's much, much harder financially to be single (unless you have a spendaholic spouse). I had hundreds more $ in disposable income every month when I lived with my boyfriend.
When I first got out of college, I couldn't afford cable TV. I was making peanuts at a non-profit agency--and loving every minute of it, BTW. I joked to my mom that I was going to get married so that I could afford cable. She promptly paid to have it installed and had the bills sent to her until I could afford it. She didn't want me to ever, ever get married for financial reasons. That story is kind of a non-sequitor, isn't it? Ahh, well, it's 6:00 am here.  |
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 03:12:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I agree many people are foolish with money. I've gone without a lot of what some people consider necessities so that I can build up my savings. I don't trust the universe to look out for me, so I do it myself.
Well, there you go! You already know the secret.
quote:
You have a partner, Woody. I'm assuming you've been single in the past, though. It's much, much harder financially to be single (unless you have a spendaholic spouse). I had hundreds more $ in disposable income every month when I lived with my boyfriend.
Oh, I don't know! The same basic rules apply for one as for many. That rule is, if you don't have it, you shouldn't spend it.
We'll use that single mother as an example. Why the hell are people having kids they can't afford to take care of? So, you'll say, the guy leaves/divorces and can't be found. Why then wasn't a stable relationship established before having a kid? If one has to get divorced the other parent is supposed to pay some support. I'd think, if the child was planned in the 1st place and there is a divorce the other parent would be a responsible person. If that is not the usuall situation, then we have to ask, how is society failing to turn out responsible citizens?
Bottom line__________comes back to, plan ahead and be responsible for your own actions. Don't have kids or buy anything unless you can pay for it.
quote:
When I first got out of college, I couldn't afford cable TV. I was making peanuts at a non-profit agency--and loving every minute of it, BTW. I joked to my mom that I was going to get married so that I could afford cable. She promptly paid to have it installed and had the bills sent to her until I could afford it. She didn't want me to ever, ever get married for financial reasons. That story is kind of a non-sequitor, isn't it? Ahh, well, it's 6:00 am here.
I see no clear reason to ever get married. Your mother was right!
And it's not really apart from the subject. It shows what ones priority is and how you dealt with it. Although, I don't understnad why people have to have cable.
ps. that was for Gorgo too.
BTW, I too don't like that word but not in the context of controling money. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 04:46:25 [Permalink]
|
But did you answer the question? Why aren't you rich?
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2003 : 00:33:17 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
But did you answer the question? Why aren't you rich?
I am rich although I've not yet been to Spain nor does it look like I'll ever get to go to Egypt to see a real 'live' pyramid as was a dream of mine since childhood.
You sir, did not answer my question...did you? What do you consider rich? So I may better answer your question.
If being rich is earning X amount of money per year then my answer would be....at this time of my life I do not choose to exert myself to that extent. I prefer to dwell in my garden and observe the flowers and birds or create works of art for my pleasure. I also have a new hobby that takes me on adventures of great fun, no time to make money. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2003 : 05:29:37 [Permalink]
|
I've just opened a jar of pickled eggs that my son-in-law will not gobble up as soon as he sets eyes on them. I simmered the brine with 2 chopped habenero peppers, yum....YOW! (hehe)He won't get past the first o' them flamin' cacklberries. Hell, I betcha he'll be stopped in his tracks at the first bite. All the more for me!
I found an almost new brake drum, a freebie, for my grungy, old motorcycle.
I've built the world's first, truly squirrel-proof bird feeder that holds about 15 pounds of seed. Squirrels are pissed, although they have their own feeder. My thoughts turn to brunswick stew. 
And W's alligator mouth often overloads his hummingbird ass. 
On about 16 grand a year disability, I'm quite wealthy, thank you. A pity it won't last. 
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
