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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2004 : 21:32:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
C88, good luck finding a woman who's dying to submit to the spiritual leadership of her husband. Oh wait...try looking in Utah. LOL
Ok, how big a list should I give??? I could start with my mother, all of my aunts, my sister who is only 14 who has expressed these feelings. Many woman in my church, both grandmothers. If you want me to go on just ask.
quote:
The question is: WHY? Is it only because the Bible says so, or do you see some sort of biological reason which feeds the faith?
People don't seem to get something. Somebody as logical and smart as Dave W. seems to be, can still ask me if its ONLY because the bible says so. Being a christian, I believe strongly that God gave us a chance that we did not deserve to live faithfully. And the bible is litterally GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. THE OMNICIENT ALMIGHTY KING OF THE WORLD AND EVERYTHING IN IT! Speaking to us through his word. You can doubt if the bible is the real deal. But for the purpose of a good conversation, if it's going to be used as an example at all. It by definition can not be, ONLY the bible.
So yes basicly, it is ONLY because the bible says so. I see no bilogical supremecy, of men over woman. I am really not a sexist, even if a few people think that I am.
And before I leave I just have to mention that my NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS, are going to the Super Bowl, for the second time in three years!!! |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 00:19:26 [Permalink]
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Creation88 wrote:quote:
People don't seem to get something. Somebody as logical and smart as Dave W. seems to be, can still ask me if its ONLY because the bible says so. Being a christian, I believe strongly that God gave us a chance that we did not deserve to live faithfully. And the bible is litterally GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. THE OMNICIENT ALMIGHTY KING OF THE WORLD AND EVERYTHING IN IT! Speaking to us through his word. You can doubt if the bible is the real deal. But for the purpose of a good conversation, if it's going to be used as an example at all. It by definition can not be, ONLY the bible.
Well, that is, indeed, the main point of contention, isn't it? Some people, such as yourself, see the Bible as more than a book written by men who claimed to have been divinely directed to write it. Such claims are, after all, not self-evident, since otherwise we'd have to believe any schmuck on a street corner who claimed to be spoken to by God.
After all, not a single word of the New Testament was actually written by Jesus. Everything Jesus said or did comes to us through, at the very least, second-hand accounts. And once you answer in the negative, creation88, about whether or not you've read the original documents in their entirety - since, as I understand things, nobody alive today has done so - you'll pretty much be forced to admit you've got no idea whether what you think is the TRUE WORD OF GOD is really what the original authors wrote or not. And if you're not cognisant of the original authors' words, how is it that you know that they didn't add stuff to GOD'S WORD that wasn't originally handed down?
In other words, it seems quite possible that the authors of the Bible were the stereotypical "make chauvanist pigs," but you wouldn't (and couldn't) know it. You assume that what they wrote (and the translations of it) was the intent of GOD HIMSELF, but you've got no evidence of that, and it seems reasonable to assume (just like with other supposedly-historical texts) that the authors' personal preferences on various matters crept into the text.
If you see no difference between "I read it in the King James version of the Bible" (or whatever version you read) and "God told me so Himself," sobeit. But expecting others to base their opinions on your own blindered view of the history of a book is asking a bit much. Even for the sake of "a good conversation," especially since this particular thread seems to have begun with the idea that the Bible Itself needs to be changed to meet the needs of the religion.
It's not like every person who reads the Bible comes to the same conclusion, forcryingoutloud. Catholics find no discrepancy between the Bible and evolution, for example. You do. The Bible, therefore, is not a standard upon which everyone can agree. Not even those who believe in its value as the Word of God can agree on what it means.
And thus, yes, "is the Bible the only reason you think women should be subservient to men" is a perfectly reasonable and logical question.
By way of analogy, if I were to get a ticket for reckless driving, and I asked the cop, "is the law the only reason you're giving me a citation," I would fully expect him/her to reply, "no, you were driving like an idiot, and endangering other people. The law just says I can fine you 250 bucks for being stupid." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 06:49:19 [Permalink]
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C88, come to Seattle, honey. I've never met a woman in the history of my life that looks to a man to define her beliefs, spiritual or otherwise.
I worked my butt off in university so that I can support myself financially, think for myself, and enjoy the world at an intellectual level on my own. I wouldn't respect myself if I let my boyfriend or husband "lead" me anywhere.
But I suspect this kind of thinking is foreign in your world. Where do you live, anyway?
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2004 : 07:48:21 [Permalink]
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Because I think you're a smart kid, C88, can I ask you some questions?
Accepting the premise that God wants us to love others (which I'm assuming you do accept):
1. When a man loves a woman (sorry for the song lyric, LOL!), do you think he wants her to be happy and do what's best for her?
2. Do you think that it's in a woman's best interest to depend (financially, emotionally, practically) on a man, given the high rates of affairs and divorce? And knowing that women live longer than men, that she's likely to be widowed and left without financial support?
3. Can you imagine a kind of love that looks more like a partnership? Where both the man and woman's needs are of equal importance? Where, in fact, they ARE equals, holding hands and helping one another through life?
4. Can you imagine a woman who's fully whole and complete all on her own? Who's happy in life whether she's single or married, in or out of a relationship? Who needs no leadership save that which she provides for herself? Whose spirituality is defined not by some guy, but by other things (her religion, art, music, nature, her family, love, charity work)?
Sorry for the questions. It's the repressed teacher in me. 
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