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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2001 : 01:46:36
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I have been getting a lot of information lately that regards the misuses and abuses of "environmentalist" groups. These "eco" zealots go around misquoting and misrepresenting many scientific studies. Whether Green-peace or the Earth Liberation Nazis, they often go around spouting weak ideas as fact, and use some of the silliest logic to back up their often errant beliefs and destructive actions.
It reminds of certain Creationist groups, except it seems to me that this problem is far more widespread among environmentalists. With the problem also seemingly getting larger each year, I would find it interesting what any self-described skeptics might think of all this nonsense.
Another thing that I find interesting is that many environmentalists are supporters of socialism. Groups like Green-peace seem to be more interested in pushing our economy and technology into the Stone Age than protecting the environment. Its almost as if the left side of the political world is trying to create its own religious organizations similar to how the right side has groups like the Christian Coalition. I would imagine that many non-religious people would find this trend to be rather disturbing.
Also, anyone who doesn't think that these groups are religious in nature only needs to talk to some of their leaders. Not everyone who is concerned with conservation is religious but the majority of these environmentalist “extremists” are.
Tiptup
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I DON'T MAKE SENSE-I GOT MY PRIDE; DON'T NEED NO MEANING; I FEEL NO SHAME-I WILL NOT BELIEVE; I GOT NO CHOICE-I'M OUT OF CONTROL; AND I LOVE IT!!
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2001 : 11:20:54 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure I understand. Are you attacking all environmental groups or specific ones? I saw a great Frontline the other night about genetically modified foods and yes, some of them seem a bit wacko, but I hope you are not dismissing all environmental groups and environmentalists because of the acts of the extreme elements.
The socialism aspect doesn't bother me. America has been socialist since the 1930s and I am ok with it. Ask any American if they want to do away with Social Security and you will suddenly look like an extremist.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2001 : 17:56:45 [Permalink]
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Hmmm…I'm scheduled to go out to dinner with Jane Goodall,in a few weeks. Maybe I should bring along a blackjack in case that science distorting socialistic nazi tries some funny business. Save the environment my ass. It's religious fanaticism I tell you!!!!!
Environment? We don' needs no stinking environment.
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 01:57:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not sure I understand. Are you attacking all environmental groups or specific ones? I saw a great Frontline the other night about genetically modified foods and yes, some of them seem a bit wacko, but I hope you are not dismissing all environmental groups and environmentalists because of the acts of the extreme elements.
The socialism aspect doesn't bother me. America has been socialist since the 1930s and I am ok with it. Ask any American if they want to do away with Social Security and you will suddenly look like an extremist.
Practically all environmentalist groups that I am aware of are doing the things that I described to some degree. What I said is specific in that sense and was not an attack but an observation. I do not know a single person who wants to destroy the environment, and I do know many others who try to protect it, but they do not believe that the American way of life is very destructive, nor do they tie being environmentally conscious to being a communistic, fundamentalist, earth worshiper.
I saw that Nova piece on genetically tampered food and I saw numerous examples where the environmentalists would say one thing and then the truth would be another. Scientists and companies are trying to increase their profits by spreading wealth around the world and advance the science of farming to be safer and more productive but environmentalists don't seem to like improvement. Sure there are problems in just about everything that we can do, but does that mean we don't do it? I can sit on a rock my whole life because I am afraid to step on grass and accidentally kill some bugs, or I can go out and try to do my best as a member of the human race.
Almost every time I hear environmentalists complaining about something, I almost always find some area where they stretch and twist small hypotheses and concerns into large facts and crises. A good example of this is their fascism regarding the topic of Global Warming and its possible causes. The warming evidence that I am aware of is weak, and there are a number of reasons to at least be skeptical and at most reject the idea completely.
Just a couple weeks ago, members of the ELF decided to firebomb a Nike store here in Minnesota. In justification for the crime a member of the group said that mother earth shouldn't be taken advantage of through evil capitalist practices. Oh yeah, and the guy said this as he was on his way to protest a tulip festival in some other area of the country to help stop the exploitation of flowers. If you say that these nutcases are just an extremely small bunch, then how do you explain the riotous actions that large numbers of them have been committing lately? Doesn't look like they are sticking flowers into gun barrels to me.
Also the leaders of many of these organizations are becoming rich while all the donations that they receive from environmentalist contributors are only going to lavishly expensive fundraisers to make more money for the organizations overhead. Stuff like this almost makes the ELF look good.
Lastly, when I said socialism, I was referring to the extreme kind. Socialism that no average American in his right mind could ever support. Social Security can be considered free-market capitalism compared to what Green-peace wants. The only driving force that I have been able to find for this is based off their mystical beliefs.
Anyhow, I am not attacking environmentalism or socialism. I am simply trying to see if any of you really are skeptics, or if you are only skeptical towards certain extremist factions. |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 02:17:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater:
Hmmm…I'm scheduled to go out to dinner with Jane Goodall,in a few weeks. Maybe I should bring along a blackjack in case that science distorting socialistic nazi tries some funny business. Save the environment my ass. It's religious fanaticism I tell you!!!!!
Again, not all environmentalists are religious fanatics. I could imagine that Jane Goodall has some sort of "mother earth" centered religious beliefs, but whether she does or does not is not my concern. Overall I see a huge religious movement forming around environmentalism, and wackos are using these beliefs to justify their violent and destructive actions. I simply want to know what people think of it. I am not attacking anyone (Except maybe the Earth Liberation Front). I am only asking for your opinions.
If you choose to ignore that which seems obvious to me, then go right ahead. (Although I would like an explanation for your differing opinion if you feel inclined to give one.) I simply find it strange that people who cower in fear when they think of what those wacko Christians are trying to do, seem to be the same people who lap up environmentalist propaganda. I am just trying to see if the people of this website really are skeptics, or simply hypocrites.  |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 02:20:29 [Permalink]
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Actually, while I was watching that show with a friend, we were commenting on how extreme they were.
I just don't believe that you should condemn a whole movement because of the actions of the militant ones you read about in the news when they do those craaaazy things.
They do have a point a lot of the time and the American lifestyle really is not good for the environment. I don't for a second think or want to live like Amish people, but what they do that is sometimes good is make poeple aware of some issues and get them thinking about it.
Genetic engineering of plants and animals has just begun. The Green Peacers won't stop it. Yes they annoy me a bit but hopefully some good might come of what they do insofar as people being very careful with what they release into nature.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 02:27:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Atomic:
They do have a point a lot of the time and the American lifestyle really is not good for the environment. I don't for a second think or want to live like Amish people, but what they do that is sometimes good is make poeple aware of some issues and get them thinking about it.
Genetic engineering of plants and animals has just begun. The Green Peacers won't stop it. Yes they annoy me a bit but hopefully some good might come of what they do insofar as people being very careful with what they release into nature.
Well personally, I can completely agree with that. I was simply finding a lot of skeptical attention being given to other areas and nothing towards extreme environmentalists. I was just trying to expand the realm of skepticism on this board. |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 03:43:57 [Permalink]
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Global warming has been pretty much proven, most of the people who deny it have a vested interest in fossil fuels or are right wing nuts.
Sure the extreamists are wacko and don't do much good, but the moderate environmentalists need to be listened to more, sadly its the extreamists that most people think of when they hear the word environmentalist, environmentalism is a required belief in todays world (if you don't have it, you have no use as far as I'm concerned).
As for anti-corporate ideology, its all based in fact, corporations are known to place profit before everything else, they really don't care about their workers safety unless it will give them a good public image or the government makes them.
I have wondered whether the world would be better off without corporations, or with their profits artificially limited along with their lifespans, interestingly enough the answer seems to be that we would be better off.
Whilst I don't condone firebombing nike stores that company is engaged in many inhumane acts for example the practice of sweat shops, etc.
As for socialist, by the political scientists definition there has never been a socialist country on the planet, so we really don't know if it works.
Maybe its just that some people don't want to buy expensive air filtration devices and only drink from bottled water, I would prefer not to have to walk around outside in a glass suit to stop getting cancer, and I would also like not to have any Dihydrogen Monoxide in the water I drink.
NOTE: The Dihydrogen Monoxide is a joke, I wonder how many people know what it really is.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 04:04:18 [Permalink]
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LOL, I remember the Dihydrogen Monoxide website but haven't seen it for years. Is it still out there somewhere?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 04:57:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have been getting a lot of information lately that regards the misuses and abuses of "environmentalist" groups. These "eco" zealots go around misquoting and misrepresenting many scientific studies.
It's a bad idea to generalize too much, and the environmental movement is an extremely broad and diverse phenomenon. Even so, some of the most widely held beliefs fostered by certain environmentalists are little better than rank superstition. This is especially true of nuclear energy. The commercial media's habit of exaggerating and misstating hazards contributes to this. The result is sometimes absurd.
Recently, a poster on another board asked me to rate the hazards of Cassini's nuclear thermal generator on a scale of one to ten, "with Three Mile Island as a three and Chernobyl as a ten." This is something like being asked to rate a stubbed toe on a scale where a paper cut is a three and disembowelment by rusty chainsaw a ten. To put it mildly, there is a complete absence of proportion in the original poster's scale.
The language of media reports could easily convince an average audience member that Three Mile Island and Chernobyl were that closely comparable. Coverage of TMI's 22nd anniversary a few weeks ago gave prominent place to terms like "catastrophe" and "America's worst nuclear accident", the former implying massive damage and loss of life, the latter that there had been many other accidents. There was no lethal radiation at TMI, nobody died and there has not been another accident like it in the Western world. These facts were buried under all the sensationalizing. TMI wasn't the worst accident, anyway. A reactor accident at Hanford, Washington in 1961(?) killed 3 people, which is three more than died at TMI.
It's odd that media and anti-nuke activists would scream bloody murder over Cassini's RTG and not say a word about the 1000 TONS (not a typo, one thousand tons) of uranium, and twice that much thorium, being dumped into the environment every year by coal-fired utilities. What? You never heard of this? I'm not surprised. Here's the whole story:http://www.ornl.gov/ORNLReview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html Note the suggestion that ash heaps be mined as a source of radioactive metals.
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 05:25:07 [Permalink]
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Speaking of fossil fuel hazards, I am a geologist by profession. Here in West Texas and Eastern New Mexico alone, accidents related to oil and natural gas production have killed 27 people in the last year. This excludes on-the-job traffic fatalities in the oil and gas industry, of which there were 14 in the same period.
Last week, 2 oil-rig workers burned to death in a blowout accident near Carlsbad. It was a local story. If this had been a nuclear accident, it would generate worldwide headlines for weeks. According to OSHA, 142,000 Americans were killed in coal and oil/gas production accidents during the 20th century. This is more than twice as many as were lost in the Vietnam war.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 12:36:41 [Permalink]
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I could imagine that Jane Goodall has some sort of "mother earth" centered religious beliefs, but whether she does or does not is not my concern.
I've known Jane for around twenty years. My wife works in the fundraising end of environmentalism. (an intentionally misleading understatement) She (Dr Goodall) is a member of the Church of England. If she gives any thought to religion at all she keeps it to herself.
Overall I see a huge religious movement forming around environmentalism, and wackos are using these beliefs to justify their violent and destructive actions.
Nut cases are always a bane to responsible groups that support the same cause. This does not mean that the cause itself is not worthy.
When the Roman Catholic Church is lobbying to have the laws regarding abortion changed they suffer greatly whenever some mouth breathing, snake handling, Fundamentalist murders a doctor in cold blood.
Same thing happens with environmentalism.
And don't think that the opponents of environmentalism don't know this. There is a trial pending, as we speak, on Long Island, New York. "Environmentalists" had burned down an entire housing development that was under construction. When the police nabbed them they turned out to be a group of teenage Creationists.
I find it curious that when you attack a group in this forum you accuse them of being a religious movement. You've done that at least four times now. I thought you liked religion?
I simply find it strange that people who cower in fear when they think of
what those wacko Christians are trying to do, seem to be the same people who lap up environmentalist propaganda. I am just trying to see if the people of this website really are skeptics, or simply hypocrites.
I guess you are too young to remember Regan's Secretary of the Interior, Watt.
Mr Watt's claim to fame was not only was he a bible-believin–gawd–fearin–khristyon but he was in charge of protecting the environment of these United States. Every morning he and his staff would get on their knees in his office (photos of the embarrassing event would appear in newspapers) and pray to Jesus for guidance.
Jesus "told" the Secretary of the Interior that He would be back in the year 2000 for THE RAPTURE. No need to trouble your little head over conservation, the world was coming to an end soon. Cut down those pesky forests; dig up that public land, there were only a few years left anyway before good Christians would fly up into the air and into the embrace of their loving Father. The rest would be in the pit of hell anyway so a little "clear cutting" didn't matter.
And don't worry about all of this destruction benefiting the "American lifestyle" because–SURPRISE–all this raw material, that we ruined our land for, was sent to Japan.
Remember the Japanese? Those were the people who gave Ex–president Regan a check for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS for a speaking tour of Japan in which he made two speeches. Wow, that guy must have been some talker.
Oh well, what's past is past, right? Japan's economy is in the toilet. Jesus never showed up and the Department of the Interior is on firm footing again.
Wrong! Check the names of those Fundi wackos kneeling around Secretary Watt in Ronnie's day and you will find that George W has re -appointed almost all of them.
If there is going to be a rapture and all the "saved" are going to disappear leaving little piles of their clothes behind I wish they would hurry up and do it before Alaska is wrecked.
If you ever find yourself on a plane going to England or Ireland look out the window as you cruise up the east coast of Canada. You will witness thousands and thousands of miles of clear-cut forests. Stumps, nothing but stumps for as far as the eye can see. Chilling.
If you are ever in Ireland just try to find a forest. There are a few small ones, all planted in the past ten years, the trees all in rows like a machine. The place used to be one huge forest.
If you are ever in Japan, around Yokosuka, take a look at their "factory ships". These things are so large that you could fit a WW II aircraft carrier into their hold. They were made for catching (with grenade harpoons) Blue Whales, hacking them up and canning them all before returning to port. All against international law. It was the Green Peace guys who put their own bodies between the whales and the explosives. These wackos risked (and some lost) their own lives to save the largest creature that has ever existed on Earth from extinction.
Tiptup you are painting with too broad of a brush. Remember that god helps those who help themselves.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 15:38:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Global warming has been pretty much proven, most of the people who deny it have a vested interest in fossil fuels or are right wing nuts.
Quite right (.4 degrees Celsius in the last 100 years, real scary  ), but don't overlook the fact that the main argument is what is causing global warming, and should we become hysterical and panic? Are humans causing it? Or is it natural? And is it even dangerous? The evidence is not near complete enough to make global economic changes.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 15:41:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Stumps, nothing but stumps for as far as the eye can see. Chilling.
Chilling? You aren't being a weensy bit melodramatic, are you? 
They'll grow back. It's in the tree-cutter-downers' best interests.
(By the way, I miss your rolling eyes smilie. I wonder if there's any way to add that to the list, @tomic?)
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 16:00:58 [Permalink]
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Yes that is on the list, but sadly it's a long list! Trying to get code going for all the essays and articles etc so that it's all one big web app. Shouldn't be too long, but there are tons of great MODs I plan on adding to this forum including an expanded smilie selection.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2001 : 18:27:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Shouldn't be too long, but there are tons of great MODs I plan on adding to this forum including an expanded smilie selection.
You've done a great job so far! 
[btw, I hate to add to your long list, but is there any way to add the ability for the forum to email you when someone replies to your message?]
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 04/27/2001 18:30:27 |
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