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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2004 : 23:46:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
C88, I think the phenomenon you're referring to (about people picking one thing out of a long, thoughtful post and disagreeing with it) is common to most boards. I, too, find it frustrating--and I'm quite sure I'm guilty of doing it to others. I'm trying to be better about it.
I also do the same thing I spoke of. It's hard not to. If you read a long post and don't have much time, you will automatticly go to the things that you disagree with. Which is not always a bad thing. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 08:53:17 [Permalink]
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Our beliefs are the filter through which we look at the world. If we believe that life is not acceptable as it is, we create illusions which attempt to make it acceptable or we do what we can to escape from life in a number of ways. If we decide on the path of illusions, because we know we created these illusions, the basic belief that life is not acceptable as it is still exists. Yes, we seem to feel good after performing some ritual or stating some cleansing affirmation, but those things are temporary. The belief that life is not good enough, that we are not good enough as we are, still exists.
Today you are cleansed of your "sins," but tomorrow you sin again. Even if you don't, you must always be on your guard as "Evil" seeks to claim you for its own.
I have heard many people express in one way or another that life would be meaningless or valueless without some kind of God/Creator. This tells me that those people start from the idea that life, their life, is not worth much to them, that they must gain worth by doing something which gives them worth. A similar kind of self-esteem is one where someone attempts to gain value by showing how little others are worth, or by actually stealing something from others. That person does not believe that they're worth much at all. Those kind of people, and we've all been that kind of people in one way or another, have to bring others down in order to try to give themselves the illusion of building themselves up.
More preferable to me is the ability to look at life from right where we are and having the understanding that there are no gods that we need to please. More preferable to me is the ability to look at life and understand that there are no gods to test us. More preferable to me is the ability to look at life and understand that everything is perfect as it is in that there are no gods to judge it and make its existence "wrong" and that nothing is perfect as it is in the sense that there is no static paradise that is attainable. Beginning with the idea that life has value, we do not need to do something to gain self-worth. Once seeing the value that life has we can instead look within ourselves for ways to contribute and increase the value that life holds for us and for all instead of always trying to gain value by taking it from something else and by creating illusions of value.
You don't need gods to appreciate life. In fact, only when you drop the need for illusions does reality become available for you to appreciate. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 10:08:57 [Permalink]
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Gorgo,
Though this may not be on topic, I agree with you that how we look at the world is filtered through our beliefs. Choosing to belief that all things are perfect is certainly a choice, but one that doesn't seem to match the reality of every day life. If truth is important in our beliefs, not just perspective, then there is one truth (or an entire bank of truth)about the way the world is. Understanding what this truth is may be a lifelong journey, but to put on rose colored glasses and deny the fact of evil in our world is not a good start at comprehending the truth. It may work for you now, but consider how it would work for others in a very bad situation, like somebody in Iraq. One doesn't have to go to Iraq, though, to see evil at work in society; just read a newspaper or watch tv. But you don't even have to go that far, let's just examine our own motivations. Many times we are selfishly motivated at the cost of someone else. Even our good deeds are motivated by selfish desires at times. We don't love our neighbor or even care about him most of the time. But what if there is a person out there with good motivations, maybe he or she can wear the rose glasses for a while, but how would he ever help his faltering neighbor or friend except by taking them off. How would they help society except by noticing all the problems? It would seem that the attitude about such problems is where we get into trouble. Things aren't all bad or all good. There is a mixture.
What if there is a God who knows that and is involved, helping people with their problems and accepting them in whatever state He finds them, not rejecting them outright, but working with them to lift them from their plight? Being just like Jesus of Nazareth was, doing good everywhere he went, healing the sick, forgiving sinners who were turning from sin, lifting up those oppressed by the devil and setting them free inside, proclaiming "good news" and "peace, good will toward men". Would that God suffer the same fate as Jesus, be rejected by the leaders of society and religion and be put to death? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 02/15/2004 10:11:39 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 10:42:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I understand that you tried to do part of this, with the snippet from ADL at the end of your post, but you'll notice that it was completely ignored.
You presume a great deal. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 11:08:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
CA, you were fifteen once, too.
So were the Hitler youth. Your point? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 11:11:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I really do not ignore his points. I will try to do better, on the things he pointed out.
Excellent - and greatly appreciated! Which point, specifically, would you like to discuss? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 11:33:19 [Permalink]
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My point is that if you remembered what YOU were like at fifteen, you might show more compassion and understanding toward C88.
There are levels of emotional and mental development that we don't achieve until we are well past the age of fifteen. In fact, big chunks of our maturation come between the ages of 20 and 30. In addition, life experiences--which are our biggest and most profound teachers--are by definition more limited in a 15-year old than in a 34-year old.
My most powerful lessons in the area of bigotry and prejudice came not from my Social Psyche studies at university (which were important and relevant), but from real-life experiences. I would share some of them, but I don't wanna threadjack. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 12:25:10 [Permalink]
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Creation88,
I'm looking forward to seeing the Gibson movie, also. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2004 : 17:56:55 [Permalink]
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I think you misunderstood me. I used the term "Evil" with a capital e. There is no "Evil force" out there. Only people who don't have the same view of the world as others.
Likewise, there is no "Good Force" out there. Only reality. That's enough. That's my only point. Why create gods because you think that reality is not good enough? God helps people? Define god. Define how it/he/she helps anyone. When you start doing that in earnest, you'll realize that none of that exists.
Jesus, like Hercules, probably never existed at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Gorgo,
Though this may not be on topic, I agree with you that how we look at the world is filtered through our beliefs. Choosing to belief that all things are perfect is certainly a choice, but one that doesn't seem to match the reality of every day life. If truth is important in our beliefs, not just perspective, then there is one truth (or an entire bank of truth)about the way the world is. Understanding what this truth is may be a lifelong journey, but to put on rose colored glasses and deny the fact of evil in our world is not a good start at comprehending the truth. It may work for you now, but consider how it would work for others in a very bad situation, like somebody in Iraq. One doesn't have to go to Iraq, though, to see evil at work in society; just read a newspaper or watch tv. But you don't even have to go that far, let's just examine our own motivations. Many times we are selfishly motivated at the cost of someone else. Even our good deeds are motivated by selfish desires at times. We don't love our neighbor or even care about him most of the time. But what if there is a person out there with good motivations, maybe he or she can wear the rose glasses for a while, but how would he ever help his faltering neighbor or friend except by taking them off. How would they help society except by noticing all the problems? It would seem that the attitude about such problems is where we get into trouble. Things aren't all bad or all good. There is a mixture.
What if there is a God who knows that and is involved, helping people with their problems and accepting them in whatever state He finds them, not rejecting them outright, but working with them to lift them from their plight? Being just like Jesus of Nazareth was, doing good everywhere he went, healing the sick, forgiving sinners who were turning from sin, lifting up those oppressed by the devil and setting them free inside, proclaiming "good news" and "peace, good will toward men". Would that God suffer the same fate as Jesus, be rejected by the leaders of society and religion and be put to death?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 07:42:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
I just want to clear up a couple things.
First of all. I am not in any way singleing out Jews. This is just the most relevent to the subject at this point in time. And it happens to be on something I care about deeply. All I am really saying is that, if someone to the best of there ability makes a historic movie.(i know many argue that too) But that if even if it was a ficticious story. That's the way the story went, so don't complain about it.
By that leap of logic, the Jews should also shut up about "Der ewige Jude" as well. It was a powerful film of its time and helped justify the murder of millions of Jews.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/program.shtml
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 07:59:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Creation88, I wonder if some Jews have trouble getting over the crucifixion and passion of Christ because they continue today to "crucify" Christ by their opposition to Christian belief. It is not a wonder to me that people, such as CA, are also having trouble because they continue to "bash" Christians and Christ by their words and passionate hatred of everything "God".
On another level, I think many Jews worry about the possible backlash such reviewing of this historic event may foster in some, seeing that they are hated by so many and think it may just cause more hatred. They are afraid of being continually blamed for the sins of their forefathers. Were they not still committing those sins, it would not be an issue with them.
One can't expect people to get over something that is a true issue with them, regardless of how many years have passed since the event. The issue of whether Jesus of Nazareth was or wasn't the Messiah is clearly pivotal in Jewish belief. They are taught that Jesus was a false prophet and that the Messiah has not yet come. Why wouldn't you expect them to react strongly toward any point of view that demeans their current faith, and Christianity, which is based on the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, does just that. This is not to say that Jesus was against the Jewish law or Jews. On the contrary, Jesus was a Jew and loved all Jews. He died for Jews and Gentiles, as he realized the inability of men to find God without a savior, and He wants all of us to find God. The Jewish law, however, was fulfilled by Jesus and the need for ritual sacrifice was fulfilled by the shedding of his own blood, once for all men. For Jews to deny that is to continually deny God's "sacrifice" for men, and thus modern practicing Jews still agree with the crucifixion of Christ as the killing of a dangerous false prophet, they just won't tell you that. In spite of this, most Christians love the Jews and want the best for them.
I'm just gobsmacked by this vent of Evangelical Fundamentalist untruth.
It distinctly ignores the centuries of Jewish oppression by the Catholic and Christian church. It likewise shows a complete ignorance of the Jewish faith.
Jews considering Jesus not being the Messiah is no more than a minor theological debate. Not recognizing a title ascribed to a being by a sub-sect of Judaism (Catholicism and Christianity) does not imply denial of such a doctorine. It only implies that it is not an assertation which has any value to the religion.
Christians "love the Jews and want the best for them". Perhaps you could explain "On the Jews and Their Lies" (1532 by Martin Luther). How about the systematic discrimination in Europe which has existed for centuries. The Papal Bulls expelling Jews from France and Germany. The "Final solution" proposed by Hitler which echoed all the the long standing hatred of Judaism. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 16:29:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar:Creation88, I wonder if some Jews have trouble getting over the crucifixion and passion of Christ because they continue today to "crucify" Christ by their opposition to Christian belief. It is not a wonder to me that people, such as CA, are also having trouble because they continue to "bash" Christians and Christ by their words and passionate hatred of everything "God".
On another level, I think many Jews worry about the possible backlash such reviewing of this historic event may foster in some, seeing that they are hated by so many and think it may just cause more hatred. They are afraid of being continually blamed for the sins of their forefathers. Were they not still committing those sins, it would not be an issue with them.
One can't expect people to get over something that is a true issue with them, regardless of how many years have passed since the event. The issue of whether Jesus of Nazareth was or wasn't the Messiah is clearly pivotal in Jewish belief. They are taught that Jesus was a false prophet and that the Messiah has not yet come. Why wouldn't you expect them to react strongly toward any point of view that demeans their current faith, and Christianity, which is based on the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, does just that. This is not to say that Jesus was against the Jewish law or Jews. On the contrary, Jesus was a Jew and loved all Jews. He died for Jews and Gentiles, as he realized the inability of men to find God without a savior, and He wants all of us to find God. The Jewish law, however, was fulfilled by Jesus and the need for ritual sacrifice was fulfilled by the shedding of his own blood, once for all men. For Jews to deny that is to continually deny God's "sacrifice" for men, and thus modern practicing Jews still agree with the crucifixion of Christ as the killing of a dangerous false prophet, they just won't tell you that. In spite of this, most Christians love the Jews and want the best for them.
Doormar, the first thing that comes to mind for me as a reply to this post is a list of words directed in your direction that would make a sailor blush. I'm gonna go easy on you, even though I think that you are probably a very similar being to what we might get if our circumcised foreskins were planted and watered and eventually harvested...
quote:
Creation88, I wonder if some Jews have trouble getting over the crucifixion and passion of Christ because they continue today to "crucify" Christ by their opposition to Christian belief.
Nope. If the story in your bible is true, and there is reason to believe that it isn't, Christ was not considered to be the messiah by the Jews. Why would we care about one guy who was hung up thousands of years ago? The problem for us is that you guys have been coming after us ever since. After all, from your point of view, (probably from an invention of Paul, who didn't really like the Jews) we killed your God. When was the last time the Jews lit out after Christians? Sorry, but not only do Jews not continue to crucify Christ, the Jews don't even consider him. We do worry about some Christians though, because they have had a history of persecuting Jews. I'll tell you what, just in case I am wrong, send me the history of Christians being forced to live in Ghettos and enduring pogroms by the Jews.
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It is not a wonder to me that people, such as CA, are also having trouble because they continue to "bash" Christians and Christ by their words and passionate hatred of everything "God".
Not all Jews are atheists. And not all atheists bash Christians. I don't. I bash bigotry, which is exactly what I am doing now...
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One can't expect people to get over something that is a true issue with them, regardless of how many years have passed since the event. The issue of whether Jesus of Nazareth was or wasn't the Messiah is clearly pivotal in Jewish belief.
Wrong again. Jesus is not a consideration. Judaism does not recognize the new testament. There is no debate about that. From a religious standpoint, Jesus doesn't exist for the Jews.
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They are taught that Jesus was a false prophet and that the Messiah has not yet come.
Again, Jesus is not considered to be a false prophet. He is not even considered. Not once in my upbringing, not at home and not in Hebrew school had I ever heard Jesus even come up. Not in any religious sense anyway. Yes, we were aware that Christians were out there, but considering Jesus' place in our history was never a topic of debate or conversation. Christianity came up, from time to time, mostly to point out that we prayed to the same God. There was/is a certain amount of worry about Christian bigotry toward the Jews. Not without evidence to back up some worry...
quote:
Why wouldn't you expect them to react strongly toward any point of view that demeans their current faith, and Christianity, which is based on the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, does just that.
Yes, why wouldn't you expect us to worry that you are once again calling the Jews, Christ killers... Oh, by the way, sorry about that. If we had known how much trouble this would cause us, I'm quite sure we would have let him live. (Where would you be then?)
quote:
This is not to say that Jesus was against the Jewish law or Jews. On the contrary, Jesus was a Jew and loved all Jews. He died for Jews and Gentiles, as he realized the inability of men to find God without a savior, and He wants all of us to find God.
The objection the Jews have with the film has nothing to do with your concept of God and Jesus.
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The Jewish law, however, was fulfilled by Jesus and the need for ritual sacrifice was fulfilled by the shedding of his own blood, once for all men.
You should be thanking us then...
quote:
For Jews to deny that is to continually deny God's "sacrifice" for men, and thus modern practicing Jews still agree with the crucifixion of Christ as the killing of a dangerous false prophet, they just won't tell you that. In spite of this, most Christians love the Jews and want the best for them.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 16:29:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
My most powerful lessons in the area of bigotry and prejudice came not from my Social Psyche studies at university (which were important and relevant), but from real-life experiences. I would share some of them, but I don't wanna threadjack.
As someone capable of pernicious platititudes such as ...quote:
Jews have every right to whatever reaction they want to have about "The Passion of the Christ." Christians have every right to THEIR views on it, too. And to an agnostic like me, it all looks like petty squabbling over one man's artistic vision.
... I can only assume that your "most powerful lessons in the area of bigotry and prejudice" were entirely wasted on you.
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 20:58:50 [Permalink]
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CA, you're something of a troll, aren't you?
You know nothing of my background or life experiences. You don't know how old I am, what race I am, my socioeconomic background, or my religious background. Yet you feel qualified to make that judgment of my character?
I guess I shouldn't have expected much better from someone who takes potshots at a 15-year-old. |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2004 : 22:26:50 [Permalink]
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Even if the story of Christs death is completly fictional. There should be nothing stopping them from making this movie.
If there was a movie made about the story "Chicken Little", would there be a backlash against the movie because it put fox in a bad light? NO! We would know that because one fox (or a few Jewish leaders in this case) killed a couple animals, does not mean all fox are evil.
And by the way, i don't know if it's my PC or the site. But whats with the new font? you can't even read what the past quotes say. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
| Edited by - byhisgrace88 on 02/16/2004 22:27:34 |
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