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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/18/2004 : 05:24:07 [Permalink]
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I concede your point, Dave W. to a point. I offered a source for my opinion, which is what I would do if we were discussing any subject, such as homeopathy, for which I have no wish (or ability) to become an expert. It would not be required to prove my stand on homeopathy myself. I would refer you to an article on homeopathy. For homeopathy I can say with some confidence, that it is a pseudoscience, but even saying that one has to understand that it is my opinion and I can only refer you to people with more expertise in that area than I. I don't think that I should be expected to do more than that. Yes, in some areas I do like to do more than that. That's why I'm here. But not in this area.
I can't state that Jesus did not exist with the same confidence, yet I am somehow required by some people to show, in detail, why I hold my opinion. The rest of you are doing a better job than I ever could. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 05:53:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I can't state that Jesus did not exist with the same confidence, yet I am somehow required by some people to show, in detail, why I hold my opinion. The rest of you are doing a better job than I ever could.
You are not required to do anything. As for the rest, I fear, have done little but argue from absence while attempting to shift the subject as you tried to shift the burden of proof.
Tell me, Gorgo, what is your view on the purported tension between Paul and the Jerusalem church? Is it all a fabrication? If so, why (and when)? If not, on what basis would you presume it "more probable" that this church evolved in the absence of messianic cult leadership? I'd also be curious to know your views on (a) Q and the Synoptics problem and (b) the Josephus reference to James. Thanks. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
| Edited by - ConsequentAtheist on 02/18/2004 05:54:05 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 06:32:33 [Permalink]
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http://www.human.st/jesuspuzzle/supp06.htm
http://www.human.st/jesuspuzzle/supp06.htm
It may be all a fabrication. People make up stories and lie. People believe those stories and lies. Why make it more complicated than that?
I don't have a quick answer for the rest. I'll see if I can get back to you on that or not.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 08:07:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Given that we have a heavily edited document (the Bible) as the only mention of Jesus during the time frame 5 BCE- 33 CE, it is highly unlikely that a Jewish Rabbinical figure named Jesus existed during that time frame. No Jewish records record a Jesus of Nazareth. Nor do Roman.
That is pathetic reasoning - little more than an unnecessarily verbose suggestion that the absence of evidence somehow constitutes compelling evidence of absence.
As for the rest, if you truly wish to discuss the textual transmission of the NT, I will gladly oblige in a different thread. Meanwhile, it would be most helpful if you limited your comments to that which is relevant. Such restraint might, in fact, leave you with enough spare time that you could actually read something of worth about Mithras. Manfred Claus would be a good place to start.
I note that you have not addressed the crux of the arguement which points to lack of evidence as an indication of probability. Nice strawman surrounded by ad hominems.
The comments were limited to the subject matter. That it disagrees with your opinion is meaningless. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 18:23:48 [Permalink]
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ConsequentAtheist wrote:quote:
Granted, but I would suggest that this is rarely the case in the field of history.
Well, there appear to me to be plenty of historical hypotheses which are dismissed due to a lack of evidence. For instance, the idea that Africans had contact with ancient Central and South American cultures. Or that aliens built the pyramids. Or that there was a single global flood. So, upon what basis do you use the word "rarely?"quote:
Let me as you a question: how would you rate the probability of the Teacher of Righteousness or The Samaritan Prophet (36 CE)?
Beats me. I'd have to learn something about them, first.quote:
I find that simply naive.
That doesn't help much.quote:
And this, Dave, is simply disingenuous. The historicity debate has little to do with virgin births, fish picnics, and resurrections.
Which is precisely why I said, "even excluding the supernatural feats." I didn't speak of any of the subjects you brought up. I'm not sure why you bring them up now, in dismissing what I said as "disingenuous."quote:
See, for example, Historical Jesus Theories
That doesn't help much, either. What is it that you wish me to learn from that resource?quote:
As I've said, I find this to be simply disingenuous.
And, as I've said, you appear to find it disingenuous for reasons which elude me, because I'm certainly not talking about a miracle-worker.quote:
If you wish to offer your views on Christology, at least have the decency to do so in its own thread.
Well, I certainly thought my views were on-topic in this thread. I can't say that I'm sure about why you think they're not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 20:10:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Well, there appear to me to be plenty of historical hypotheses which are dismissed due to a lack of evidence. For instance, ... that aliens built the pyramids.
Is that truly the main reason you dismiss the 'hypothesis' of alien builders? I'm sorry, Dave, but I really have little respect for this type of argumentation. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2004 : 20:31:14 [Permalink]
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ConsequentAtheist wrote:quote:
Is that truly the main reason you dismiss the 'hypothesis' of alien builders?
I never said it was my "main" reason, but considering your evasion of the point, I'll ask you: what reason would you prefer?quote:
I'm sorry, Dave, but I really have little respect for this type of argumentation.
And what "type" of argumentation would that be? This is a serious question. Almost every time I've tried to guess your intended meaning from these terse replies you make, I've been wrong. I'm no longer going to guess. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 04:26:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
Not to answer for him, and without going into a lot of detail,
I would have to say the written records, as well as the archeological evidence linking those records to the times, as well as the birth of the Christian movement, and the fact that Christianity itself would never have gotten off the ground if the man simply didn't exist.
You have to remember, the first Christians walked and talked with the man. If he didn't exist there would simply have been no first Christians.
Or are you trying to suggest that the people who lived amounst the first Christians simply failed to let them know that the guy they lived with was just a figment of their imagination? Simply put, if Jesus hadn't existed, Christianity would have died off and been nipped in the bud--if it had ever gotten off the ground in the first place!
I think if we are going to argue Jesus' existence, we should rather be discussing whether he was who he claimed to be, and not whether or not he existed.
Nothing too in-depth or theological here, just some common sense!
An excellant point, ivan. Why someone would suggest that Jesus wasn't real is beyond me...Hercules being real, now that's a different story..not many followers of Hercules today, but there seems to be millions who have some form of faith in Jesus.
Think this topic is just for jerking chains..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
GORGO, DO NOT READ BELOW THIS LINE OF DOTS...THIS IS PRIVATE...ALL OTHER SFN CAN READ, BUT NOT GORGO....................................IF I SEE ANY REPLY FROM GORGO, I WILL KNOW HE OR SHE HAS READ THIS AND BROKEN THE RULE........................................................................................................................................
<Let me suggest that Gorgo is not a human being at all, but somebody's chat bot, or a double of another person on SFN, or even a plant. This is just a theory, of course, but I am open to other reasons why Gorgo is not real. Notice his or hers many relatively short answers, typical of chat bots, almost programmed. Before I came to SFN, I'd never heard of Gorgo before. Now I see his name everywhere, but am wondering if he or she really exists at all. The government likes to confuse people like this, also, so they can get "in" with the SFN group, and surveil what is happening here. There is evidence, though, that is beginning to show "Gorgo's" true colors. I think the truth can be revealed if we keep asking "it" questions about "its" past and such. Do not tell Gorgo you read this. E-mail me in secret with any further evidence you may gather.> |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 07:34:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
Not to answer for him, and without going into a lot of detail,
I would have to say the written records, as well as the archeological evidence linking those records to the times, as well as the birth of the Christian movement, and the fact that Christianity itself would never have gotten off the ground if the man simply didn't exist.
You have to remember, the first Christians walked and talked with the man. If he didn't exist there would simply have been no first Christians.
Or are you trying to suggest that the people who lived amounst the first Christians simply failed to let them know that the guy they lived with was just a figment of their imagination? Simply put, if Jesus hadn't existed, Christianity would have died off and been nipped in the bud--if it had ever gotten off the ground in the first place!
I think if we are going to argue Jesus' existence, we should rather be discussing whether he was who he claimed to be, and not whether or not he existed.
Nothing too in-depth or theological here, just some common sense!
An excellant point, ivan. Why someone would suggest that Jesus wasn't real is beyond me...Hercules being real, now that's a different story..not many followers of Hercules today, but there seems to be millions who have some form of faith in Jesus.
Think this topic is just for jerking chains
A couple of things.
1) Christ is a title, not a name.
2) Followers of Hercules had been around for millenia before the alledged appearance of the Christ. A shift in mythology and the embracing/inflicting of Christianity by the government of Rome caused the downfall of the older mythologies. That Christianity is still around is a temporal anectdote.
quote:
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GORGO, DO NOT READ BELOW THIS LINE OF DOTS...THIS IS PRIVATE...ALL OTHER SFN CAN READ, BUT NOT GORGO....................................IF I SEE ANY REPLY FROM GORGO, I WILL KNOW HE OR SHE HAS READ THIS AND BROKEN THE RULE........................................................................................................................................
<Let me suggest that Gorgo is not a human being at all, but somebody's chat bot, or a double of another person on SFN, or even a plant. This is just a theory, of course, but I am open to other reasons why Gorgo is not real. Notice his or hers many relatively short answers, typical of chat bots, almost programmed. Before I came to SFN, I'd never heard of Gorgo before. Now I see his name everywhere, but am wondering if he or she really exists at all. The government likes to confuse people like this, also, so they can get "in" with the SFN group, and surveil what is happening here. There is evidence, though, that is beginning to show "Gorgo's" true colors. I think the truth can be revealed if we keep asking "it" questions about "its" past and such. Do not tell Gorgo you read this. E-mail me in secret with any further evidence you may gather.>
Gorgo is neither a "reply bot" nor an alias. I also find it odd that you think that your "rules of reading a public post" have any validity. Quite frankly, it's completely childish. Your conspiracy theories on the origin/nature of Gorgo have about as much validity as those theories which insist that the US never went to the moon. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 10:22:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
Well Gorgo, you have still not addressed the issue properly, but if you wish to leave, it's your call.
quote:
Your logic follows:
1. There were people who believed Jesus existed and started a mythology based on this belief.
2. Thus Jesus must have existed.
They wouldn't have simply "believed" he existed, because the early X-ians lived alongside with him. They would have known for a fact whether or not he existed, and in this case, they say he did.
People say they have been abducted by aliens. So what? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 10:52:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
An excellant point, ivan. Why someone would suggest that Jesus wasn't real is beyond me...Hercules being real, now that's a different story..not many followers of Hercules today, but there seems to be millions who have some form of faith in Jesus.
Using this kind of logic, you could claim just because the movie "The Crimes of Dr. Mabuse" is hardly known, and everyone knows "Gone with the Wind", that "The Crimes of Dr. Mabuse" never existed in the first place.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2004 : 20:13:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
People say they have been abducted by aliens. So what?
Yes, but there are also countless people who spend time trying to smack sense into them.
Funny, we find no early documents of people trying to do the same to early Christians. There is no evidence that Christianity was suppressed during the early days because it was a ridiculous cult focusing on a man that never lived.
Yet in today's day we find plenty of sources that go to discredit ufology/ufologists because of the fact that UFO's don't exist.
Remember, nowadays when someone comes with an abduction story, they are the only ones who know the whole truth because abductions (at least the ones I've heard of) are always single-person abduction stories. But, in the early 1st century, everyone who lived in Jesus' "alleged" area would have known whether or not he was real, and if he wasn't...we should be finding evidence suggesting so! (Not a lack of evidence mind you, but documents possibly stating that there is an uprising of a cult that believes in said non-existent character).
Yet sadly, no documents or evidence exists (to my knowledge, of course--correct me if I'm wrong).
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 00:50:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
quote:
People say they have been abducted by aliens. So what?
Yes, but there are also countless people who spend time trying to smack sense into them.
We are trying to talk sense into you guys, but we don't seem to succeed, now do we? Perhaps we really should start smacking too?
quote:
Funny, we find no early documents of people trying to do the same to early Christians. There is no evidence that Christianity was suppressed during the early days because it was a ridiculous cult focusing on a man that never lived.
In Rome, they were just regarded as unpatriotic, since they refused to serve in the army, and otherwise supporting the Empire. They were regarded as a ridiculous cult, period. And every now and then they were thrown to wild animals for sport, and as scapegoats. As long as they were fodder for amusement, why talk sense into them? Besides, it's not like there were as many psychologists back then. Perhaps there were many trying to talk sense into the early christians, but why would they document it? Relatives and such, I bet they were concerned.
quote:
Yet in today's day we find plenty of sources that go to discredit ufology/ufologists because of the fact that UFO's don't exist.
UFO's does exist. Alien spaceships on the other hand, is a completely different thing.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 01:33:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
...because of the fact that UFO's don't exist.
Interesting.
Do you have any evidence supporting this so called fact? |
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