|
|
|
myteshuvah
New Member
USA
3 Posts |
 Posted - 02/20/2004 : 06:24:29 [Permalink]
|
Jesus existed more than likely. The question is what are we to believe about him? I have a problem with assigning Jesus qualities which predate him. In other words his story was told long before Jesus' birth. Christian church fathers admitted this. They explained that Satan tried to copy the "truth" in order to confuse everybody.
I have some problems with that. |
What is bad for you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Law; all the rest of it is commentary." Hillel
|
 |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 07:04:05 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by myteshuvah
I have some problems with that.
I have problems with a lot of things in the bible, so you are in good company. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 07:47:36 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
...because of the fact that UFO's don't exist.
Interesting.
Do you have any evidence supporting this so called fact?
There are several reports of unidentifed flying objects. What there is no evidence of is linking the UFO with extra-terestial life. The Avrocar, weather balloons, the Chance-Voight "Flying flapjack", and other experimental aircraft and insect swarms have been erroneously called UFO's. There are some of such limited interest that the government never bothered to investigate them. They remain UFO's, although probably of terrestial origin. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 11:33:20 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Jesus existed more than likely. The question is what are we to believe about him? I have a problem with assigning Jesus qualities which predate him. In other words his story was told long before Jesus' birth. Christian church fathers admitted this. They explained that Satan tried to copy the "truth" in order to confuse everybody.
Apparently Lucifer was successful because after reading your post I am really confused.
What are you talking about? |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
|
myteshuvah
New Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 12:44:11 [Permalink]
|
The story recorded in the gospels was around long before Jesus. Christianity is barrowed from many religions. Christian theology predates Jesus is what I meant. Here are links to some detailed study sites you might want to look at.
THE ESSENE CHRISTIAN FAITH AND ITS LEGACY OF SUN WORSHIP
http://essenechristianfaith.netfirms.com
http://essene.freewebsites.com/
http://geocities.com/essenecx
These you shall find very interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by furshur
Apparently Lucifer was successful because after reading your post I am really confused.
What are you talking about?
|
What is bad for you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Law; all the rest of it is commentary." Hillel
|
|
|
|
Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 20:13:34 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
GORGO, DO NOT READ BELOW THIS LINE OF DOTS...THIS IS PRIVATE...ALL OTHER SFN CAN READ, BUT NOT GORGO....................................IF I SEE ANY REPLY FROM GORGO, I WILL KNOW HE OR SHE HAS READ THIS AND BROKEN THE RULE........................................................................................................................................
<Let me suggest that Gorgo is not a human being at all, but somebody's chat bot, or a double of another person on SFN, or even a plant. This is just a theory, of course, but I am open to other reasons why Gorgo is not real. Notice his or hers many relatively short answers, typical of chat bots, almost programmed. Before I came to SFN, I'd never heard of Gorgo before. Now I see his name everywhere, but am wondering if he or she really exists at all. The government likes to confuse people like this, also, so they can get "in" with the SFN group, and surveil what is happening here. There is evidence, though, that is beginning to show "Gorgo's" true colors. I think the truth can be revealed if we keep asking "it" questions about "its" past and such. Do not tell Gorgo you read this. E-mail me in secret with any further evidence you may gather.>
Gorgo is neither a "reply bot" nor an alias. I also find it odd that you think that your "rules of reading a public post" have any validity. Quite frankly, it's completely childish. Your conspiracy theories on the origin/nature of Gorgo have about as much validity as those theories which insist that the US never went to the moon.
[/quote]
Yo, Valient, you're right, it's childish, about as childist as this discussion of whether Jesus was real or not...my point entirely. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
|
|
|
ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 20:17:26 [Permalink]
|
quote:
We are trying to talk sense into you guys, but we don't seem to succeed, now do we? Perhaps we really should start smacking too?
Right back at ya.
quote:
In Rome, they were just regarded as unpatriotic, since they refused to serve in the army, and otherwise supporting the Empire. They were regarded as a ridiculous cult, period. And every now and then they were thrown to wild animals for sport, and as scapegoats. As long as they were fodder for amusement, why talk sense into them? Besides, it's not like there were as many psychologists back then. Perhaps there were many trying to talk sense into the early christians, but why would they document it? Relatives and such, I bet they were concerned.
This fictional anecdote does nothing to explain why there are no records of a group following a non-existent man. If there were many trying to talk sense into them, then why was nothing written about this crazy group of brainwashed imaginary-friend-follwers? The Christian movement didn't die off when a few of them were thrown to the lions...instead, it has continued for centuries....and yet not until 2000 years later do we hear of anyone challenging Jesus' existence. Interesting....
quote:
UFO's does exist. Alien spaceships on the other hand, is a completely different thing.
quote:
Do you have any evidence supporting this so called fact?
My bad. By UFO's I was implying alien spacecraft. And instead of "because of the fact that UFO's don't exist" I should have written "because of the probability that alien spacecraft don't exist". Sorry  .
quote:
The question is what are we to believe about him? I have a problem with assigning Jesus qualities which predate him. In other words his story was told long before Jesus' birth. Christian church fathers admitted this. They explained that Satan tried to copy the "truth" in order to confuse everybody.
I have some problems with that.
So you have a problem with the story surrounding Jesus? Or the early Church leaders?
quote:
The story recorded in the gospels was around long before Jesus.
Yes, similar stories do exist, as they do exist with practically everything. Simply stating that two stories are similar does not constitute as evidence for the idea that the authors of the gospels explicitly copied earlier ideas and made them their own. Seeing as how up to the point of the "alleged" birth of Jesus there were hundreds of different mythological beliefs shared by people over the face of the earth that had built up over thousands of years, I do not find it terribly odd that Jesus' life may have resembled others.
I'm sure if you and I looked hard enough, we both would be able to come across mythological characters whose lives resemble our own.
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2004 : 22:42:36 [Permalink]
|
ivanisavich wrote:quote:
The Christian movement didn't die off when a few of them were thrown to the lions...instead, it has continued for centuries....and yet not until 2000 years later do we hear of anyone challenging Jesus' existence. Interesting....
No, people began questioning Jesus' existence when the Church finally fell from its position of historical authority, perhaps two or three hundred years ago. For many centuries before that, questioning the Church meant being burned, tortured and/or imprisoned as a heretic. It is not at all surprising that very few people did, in any way, much less challenging the truly central dogma. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 14:13:56 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
It is not at all surprising that very few people did, in any way, much less challenging the truly central dogma.
Very few, or none? Also, note there there is almost three centuries between the writings of Paul and the Council of Nicene. Where, in the Ante-Nicene polemics, do you find a single polemic against historicity? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 16:01:22 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by ivanisavich
quote:
We are trying to talk sense into you guys, but we don't seem to succeed, now do we? Perhaps we really should start smacking too?
Right back at ya.
 I suppose I deserved that one...
We started out with alien abductees:
I wrote: "People say they have been abducted by aliens. So what?"
ivanisavich wrote: "Yes, but there are also countless people who spend time trying to smack sense into them.
Funny, we find no early documents of people trying to do the same to early Christians."
There seem to be some miscommunication between us. I tried to explain why there weren't any records of alien-abductee-deprogrammers (or religious sects deprogramming psychologists) deprogramming early christians in the first century BC. To that you answer:
"This fictional anecdote does nothing to explain why there are no records of a group following a non-existent man. If there were many trying to talk sense into them, then why was nothing written about this crazy group of brainwashed imaginary-friend-follwers?"
In what way (and in which parts) do you consider my "anecdote" fictional?
And I never said anything about documentation of actual early christians. I always thought there were records of early christians. Where else do the Christians-and-lions stories come from? Are you implying that Christians-and-lions stories are fictional?
Isn't Nero's blaming of the fire on Christians a matter of public record?
The point is, stories of Jesus-freaks got into public records because people officially blamed them for stuff that happened.
Relatives and friends who were concerned that their son/daughter/friend left their main-stream religion to join a weird sect was a personal matter to them. So their story would be a matter of private records. And how many private records from that time has survived to this day?
"The Christian movement didn't die off when a few of them were thrown to the lions...instead, it has continued for centuries...."
Ron L. Hubbard wrote science fiction before starting the Church of Scientology and writing its "bible". Even now, after his death, his church is increasing its power worldwide. Given the gullability of ordinary people, I estimate it will continue for centuries.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
ivanisavich
Skeptic Friend
67 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 19:56:58 [Permalink]
|
quote:
In what way (and in which parts) do you consider my "anecdote" fictional?
By fiction I was referring to the sarcasm mixed in with the truth, that was used to create a Dr. Mabuse version of the story.
ie,
quote:
As long as they were fodder for amusement, why talk sense into them? Besides, it's not like there were as many psychologists back then.
So you have found written evidence that people were reluctant to talk sense into them? (see what I mean?) It's not a big deal, it's just that it didn't help your point.
quote:
And I never said anything about documentation of actual early christians. I always thought there were records of early christians. Where else do the Christians-and-lions stories come from? Are you implying that Christians-and-lions stories are fictional?
No.
quote:
Relatives and friends who were concerned that their son/daughter/friend left their main-stream religion to join a weird sect was a personal matter to them. So their story would be a matter of private records.
And yet the same people that you claim were concerned of their family members also soon joined this "cult" as history shows, to an extent where if anyone wasn't a Christian, it was practically a crime. Once again, it's a little odd that if Jesus was such a blatantly fictional character, he had any followers in the first place.
quote:
Ron L. Hubbard wrote science fiction before starting the Church of Scientology and writing its "bible". Even now, after his death, his church is increasing its power worldwide. Given the gullability of ordinary people, I estimate it will continue for centuries.
Here, you have misunderstood me (but not to the extent where it was a misquote, as my intent may not have been obvious). I originally wrote:
quote:
The Christian movement didn't die off when a few of them were thrown to the lions...instead, it has continued for centuries....and yet not until 2000 years later do we hear of anyone challenging Jesus' existence.
What I was simply recognizing is the fact that it's easy for people who live 2000 years after someone to question his/her existence. And it's also funny that no one living during Jesus lifespan (that we know of) did so. My statement had nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is true, as it could have been made for any other religion such as Buddhism or Scientology as you pointed out. It was simply a re-affimation of my problem with the idea that a religion with an imaginary founder has lasted so long--which is something that is highly improbable.
Hope that helps
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2004 : 23:35:51 [Permalink]
|
ivanisavich wrote:quote:
What I was simply recognizing is the fact that it's easy for people who live 2000 years after someone to question his/her existence.
Sure is, especially when his Church isn't threatening people with death who do ask those questions.quote:
And it's also funny that no one living during Jesus lifespan (that we know of) did so.
Fact is, nobody wrote anything about Jesus during his lifespan. Could be that nobody questioned his existence because he didn't exist, and so nobody knew to question his existence. Could be that nobody questioned his existence because he did exist.quote:
My statement had nothing to do with whether or not Christianity is true, as it could have been made for any other religion such as Buddhism or Scientology as you pointed out. It was simply a re-affimation of my problem with the idea that a religion with an imaginary founder has lasted so long--which is something that is highly improbable.
Doesn't this assume that Jesus actually founded Christianity? Could it not have been those who wrote about Him who began worship of Him (thus "founding" the religion itself)?
Aside from that, were the ancient Egyptian gods imaginary? Who "founded" those particular sets of religious beliefs, anyway? The sets which lasted, apparently, over 3,000 years (and have at least a fringe following today amongst some "New Agers," which might extend the relgion's lifespan to over 5,000 years)?
While Christianity undoubtedly has the widest following today (in terms of sheer numbers, I don't know about percentage of the population), it is also undoubtedly not the longest-lived religion yet, regardless of whether Jesus was imaginary or not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2004 : 09:26:22 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
GORGO, DO NOT READ BELOW THIS LINE OF DOTS...THIS IS PRIVATE...ALL OTHER SFN CAN READ, BUT NOT GORGO....................................IF I SEE ANY REPLY FROM GORGO, I WILL KNOW HE OR SHE HAS READ THIS AND BROKEN THE RULE........................................................................................................................................
<Let me suggest that Gorgo is not a human being at all, but somebody's chat bot, or a double of another person on SFN, or even a plant. This is just a theory, of course, but I am open to other reasons why Gorgo is not real. Notice his or hers many relatively short answers, typical of chat bots, almost programmed. Before I came to SFN, I'd never heard of Gorgo before. Now I see his name everywhere, but am wondering if he or she really exists at all. The government likes to confuse people like this, also, so they can get "in" with the SFN group, and surveil what is happening here. There is evidence, though, that is beginning to show "Gorgo's" true colors. I think the truth can be revealed if we keep asking "it" questions about "its" past and such. Do not tell Gorgo you read this. E-mail me in secret with any further evidence you may gather.>
Gorgo is neither a "reply bot" nor an alias. I also find it odd that you think that your "rules of reading a public post" have any validity. Quite frankly, it's completely childish. Your conspiracy theories on the origin/nature of Gorgo have about as much validity as those theories which insist that the US never went to the moon.
Yo, Valient, you're right, it's childish, about as childist as this discussion of whether Jesus was real or not...my point entirely.
[/quote]
The "childish" charge was about your attempt at imposing an invalid set of rules on this thread, not the existance/nature of Gorgo. You have claimed that Jesus was real absent any proof outside a heavily edited religious text. We have maintained that it is unlikely that such a person existed. We have not said it was impossible, just highly improbable. Since the probablity was in question as the underlying subject of this thread, your contention of childishness of subject matter seems linked to the performance of your arguement for the existance of Jesus. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2004 : 19:15:09 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Fact is, nobody wrote anything about Jesus during his lifespan.
No, Dave, that is not a "fact". The "fact is" that we have no record of anything written about Jesus during his lifespan. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
