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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2004 : 11:17:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa
Probably explains one of the reasons why so much evil has been done in the name of modern religious dogma.
I think if the evil things religion has done is always going to be brought up on this site, it should also be pointed out that a lot of good has been done as well. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 11:44:02 [Permalink]
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| People do "good" and "bad" things. Irrational ideas do not increase the possibility of good things happening, or good things being used in their highest capacity. Religion is irrational thinking. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 14:05:20 [Permalink]
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I thought the 'passion' refered to the carrying the cross by Jesus to the place they nailed him to it. But if you want to know what Jesus was passionate about I would say it was - figs. Jesus apparently loved figs. My advice would have been to anyone that lived back then would be, "don't get between the Christ and a fig!". The bible even details an episode that illustrates his all encompassing desire for figs:
quote:
Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.
When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.
Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, figs are my passion, When I return to to the world it will be in a time when figs are encased in a square cookie coating and they shall be called newtons."
OK, I added that last little part but the point is - this guy loved his figs.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 19:41:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
So, you say sin is a construct of Christian mythology? Then murder, thievry, rape, adultery, lying, terrorizing, robbing, and every form of lawlessness is just a figment of Christian imagination, along with greed, lust for sex, lust for power and gain, hatred, hypocrisy, and just plain meaness and unbelief toward God is all, likewise just a myth? Nice try, but you lose the game of life which is based on reality. The very "snake oil" example you give is one of the deceitful ways of men, or sin.
What are we each guilty of ? On what day of our lives do we become guilty of sin ? Which of these crimes do you suppose we were each capable of commiting prior to our guilt ? Nice try, but I think and I will pass on this bottle of snake oil.
Many of these crimes you have identified as sin existed prior to the writing of the first book of the bible. So sin, in this case, is just a christian label for people doing bad things. To discourage people from doing bad things we create laws and determine punishment as a civil society should do, absent of any god belief.
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2004 : 14:15:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Woody D
It's very simple. He was mentaly deranged. No, I'm not joking.
Had at that time they known about schizopphrenia, yes, he could have avoided it. But like everything else in history, it takes time to discover new scientific explanations for what is happening.. .
"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father is also merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven."
Woody, I'm at a loss why you put this quote from Jesus in your text. As to the first part you're not really giving a reason, but your explanation. So you think Jesus was deranged and schizopphrenic. What was his other personality? What really was the passion he had? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2004 : 14:31:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
People do "good" and "bad" things. Irrational ideas do not increase the possibility of good things happening, or good things being used in their highest capacity. Religion is irrational thinking.
So you say, but I don't see the teachings of love, mercy, giving, forgiving, tolerance, kindness coming from the non-religious person, but any degree of these teachings that the non-religious embrace come from Jesus's teachings, so, in effect, His ways have even spread to those who don't claim any belief in HIm. Now that's radical thinking but can you disprove that it isn't actually happening that way...in other words, a sort of metamorphisis resulting from unwanted influences. Most people don't deny the validity of Jesus's teaching on love, mercy, kindness, truthfulness, etc. But instead of embracing the religious institution that includes these teaching, many people shun the institutions because of hypocrisies, but embrace the attitudes of the Christ, as they understand them. I wonder if that isn't why we sometimes see religious people who live hypocritcally and don't practice the precepts listed above, but then we see some non-religious people embrace these precepts without the religion attached. Then again, there are a few who embrace both Christ and his teachings. "of such is the kingdom of God". Oversimplifying the issue as "irrational thinking" doesn't really work well. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2004 : 17:38:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
...I don't see the teachings of love, mercy, giving, forgiving, tolerance, kindness coming from the non-religious person, but any degree of these teachings that the non-religious embrace come from Jesus's teachings, so, in effect, His ways have even spread to those who don't claim any belief in HIm...
Your statement implies that people classified as "non-religious" cannot originate teachings of "love, mercy, giving, forgiving, tolerance, and kindness," and that these teachings only originated with Jesus. These ideas and feelings were in the air long before the time of Jesus.  |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2004 : 18:14:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
So you say, but I don't see the teachings of love, mercy, giving, forgiving, tolerance, kindness coming from the non-religious person, but any degree of these teachings that the non-religious embrace come from Jesus's teachings, so, in effect, His ways have even spread to those who don't claim any belief in HIm. Now that's radical thinking but can you disprove that it isn't actually happening that way...in other words, a sort of metamorphisis resulting from unwanted influences.
Let me get this straight. Love, mercy, giving, forgiving, tolerance, and kindness did not exist until 2000 years ago when your fictional savior was created by man/men. I apologize I didn't mean created, I meant co-opted.
quote:
Most people don't deny the validity of Jesus's teaching on love, mercy, kindness, truthfulness, etc.
The Jesus mentioned in a 1700 year old collection of little books written mostly by anonymous authors. If Jesus is a fiction of men, then clearly his teaching were the work of these same men. I'm not claiming that these quotes and stories were originated by these men merely that they recorded them as a part of their work.
quote:
... "of such is the kingdom of God". Oversimplifying the issue as "irrational thinking" doesn't really work well.
Absent a lobotomy an eternity in heaven, or hell, would become an absolutely tedious existence. Even though I am a fairly patient person, if the essence of who I am survives into a next life, having the same or similar experience for the billionth time is going to make me wish I were ... No wait, I guess I would already dead. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 00:20:28 [Permalink]
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Doomar wrote:quote:
So you say, but I don't see the teachings of love, mercy, giving, forgiving, tolerance, kindness coming from the non-religious person...
Then why did you later write, "...but then we see some non-religious people embrace these precepts without the religion attached"?
You also wrote:quote:
But instead of embracing the religious institution that includes these teaching, many people shun the institutions because of hypocrisies, but embrace the attitudes of the Christ, as they understand them.
Sure. There is, you know, a vast schism in Christianity between the people who believe that the way to salvation is through faith, and the people who believe that the way to salvation is through "good works," or emulating Christ as best a mortal is able. I much prefer the attitudes of the "good works" Christians, as they appear to me to be less selfish and more apt to actually try to help their fellow humans, but it also appears that more than 50% of the U.S. population feels that's too much effort.
But I'm getting sidetracked. Personally, I feel that some of Jesus' teachings were things which we could use a lot more of in the world today, but I have serious doubts that any of those teachings originated with Jesus (especially "truthfulness," as you put it, since "Thou shalt not bear false witness..." originated no later than the writing of Exodus, long before Jesus was born).
And shunning the institutions due to hypocrisy is something which Pastor Steve advises. Of course, I would go further than he, by shunning the "institution" of saying "if you don't believe what I believe, you're not going to be Saved," which is highly prejudicial and intolerant. As is much of the "institution" of the New Testament, with its name-calling and other childish nonsense.quote:
Oversimplifying the issue as "irrational thinking" doesn't really work well.
Actually, it works great. There is no need to believe in God or in miracles in order to do good things here on Earth. One doesn't need to "accept Jesus" in order to follow the Golden Rule, or any other societal more. Quite the opposite, in fact, since irrational beliefs about what God "wants" have led to major violence in God's name. Much historical bloodshed, and even today's abortion-doctor killings, could have been avoided had religion simply not existed. As much nastiness may have happened for other reasons, but at least the blame wouldn't have been placed squarely on God's shoulders.
Not to dig or anything, but apparently my earlier reply to you wasn't on-topic enough for your tastes? Even though other people's definitely off-topic replies were? You are the one who was insisting that other subjects go into other threads here, after all. As with the "judical activism" thread, I'm just trying to figure out whether you've got a personal problem with me or not. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 00:55:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Woody, I'm at a loss why you put this quote from Jesus in your text.
Sorry to hear that.
quote:
As to the first part you're not really giving a reason, but your explanation.
Yes, you are correct. And your point is?
quote:
So you think Jesus was deranged and schizopphrenic.
In all seriousness, yes, I do think he and others such as Joan de Arc who were very religious seemed to be schizophrenic from the discription of their 'delusions'. (what they did and how they acted in their lives)
quote:
What was his other personality?
Sorry? Not sure what you mean. ('other personality?')
quote:
What really was the passion he had?
One of the traits, so I hear, he had was wanting to help people. Am I mistaken? I relate that to people like my mother and others who care(d) so much about healing people that it's a 'passion'. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2004 : 01:44:00 [Permalink]
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Woody wrote:quote:
Sorry? Not sure what you mean. ('other personality?')
Doomar appears to be under the mistaken impression that "schizophrenia" is the same thing as a "split personality" or "multiple personality disorder." However, as I learned in a high school psychology class over twenty years ago, such is not the case. Schizophrenia.com appears to be a good reference:People with schizophrenia often suffer terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices not heard by others, or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn. Their speech and behavior can be so disorganized that they may be incomprehensible or frightening to others.
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People with schizophrenia may have perceptions of reality that are strikingly different from the reality seen and shared by others around them. Living in a world distorted by hallucinations and delusions, individuals with schizophrenia may feel frightened, anxious, and confused.
In part because of the unusual realities they experience, people with schizophrenia may behave very differently at various times. Sometimes they may seem distant, detached, or preoccupied and may even sit as rigidly as a stone, not moving for hours or uttering a sound. Other times they may move about constantly – always occupied, appearing wide-awake, vigilant, and alert. As I heard on NPR a few months ago, there is now a virtual-reality simulation available from someone (can't remember whom) which offers a small subset of the schizophrenic experience to everyone who tries it. A trip through a grocery store, if I remember correctly, in which the people pictured on product labels come alive and speak to you, and you'll also hear (from no particular source) whispered sentences like "they're out to get you!" While NPR is an audio-only resource, the audio they played from the VR sim was terrifying all by itself - I couldn't even begin to imagine what today's schizophrenics deal with on a day-by-day audio and visual nightmare, especially given the fact that with current technology and our understanding of the workings of the brain and its susceptibility to illusions, it's hard for non-schizophrenic people to truly trust what they see and hear.
But back to the topic at hand at the moment: if Jesus was schizophrenic, he was most-likely among the two-thirds of victims without true paranoid symptoms. He, however, would have had delusions of grandeur, which are not unknown among schizophrenics. Of course, what we know about him comes through years of nostalgia and possibly heavy editing, so it's impossible to make a precise diagnosis, one way or the other. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 22:34:00 [Permalink]
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Your statement implies that people classified as "non-religious" cannot originate teachings of "love, mercy, giving, forgiving, tolerance, and kindness," and that these teachings only originated with Jesus. These ideas and feelings were in the air long before the time of Jesus.
I think all good things originate from God. Jesus's teachings were, however, extremely radical to the teachings existing before Him. I no of nowhere in history where a group of people before Jesus taught these same things, do you? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 23:37:30 [Permalink]
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Dave, you said, "There is no need to believe in God or in miracles in order to do good things here on Earth. One doesn't need to "accept Jesus" in order to follow the Golden Rule, or any other societal more."
I would agree with that to the extent that men can do "good deeds". However, in each person's heart, if we are honest with ourselves, even our 'goodness' is tainted with selfishness. I really don't think a person can be good without the help of God, and a change of heart, at least not in the Biblical sense of goodness. The Bible teaches that no one is good left to themselves, that all are corrupted. The very denial of the need for help to be good is a sign of arrogance and unwarranted pride, which most agree, is not good. Goodness denotes a true benevolence and disinterested attitude, or nothing to be selfishly gained, or so the Biblical scholars, like Jonathan Edwards teach. Jesus said, "There is none good, but God." It seems that Jesus finds goodness in a self sacrificing act of goodness, like the poor woman who gave all of her wage to God, in faith. He said, "she gave more than all these rich men, because they gave of their surplus, but she gave even what she needed to survive." And, thus, do we see of most "good works" today. Not all, but most.
In Jesus we see something quite different. His attitudes of compassion and mercy are truly stunning. His love for his enemies in the face of death is remarkable, so much so, that the Centurian who presided over his execution remarked, "truly this was the son of God." It was in the face of great trial where this love was put to the extreme test. Much like metals are tested for hardness or strength through extreme pressure, so was Jesus tested through extreme pressure, only His pressure was pure hate and evil towards Him, which included betrayal, denial, false witness, conspiracy to murder him, mockery, spit, fists, whips, a crown of thorns, rods, and spikes in his hands and feets, and being lifted up, unable to move or flee, naked for all to mock and revile him during his last hours before death. His attitude during this extreme trial, His undying love and compassion for men, forgiveness and mercy toward His enemies, concern for his mother and her welfare, all during the most gruesome torture and execution, this attitude depicts His true passion. It is a passion for us, all of us wretched people, who want nothing to do with Him for much of our lives. We are annoyed at Him. But what if what He taught was all true? What if He is the Son of God, and what if He is going to come again to earth to rule. What if there is a resurrection day and men who trust in Him will live forever with Him, ruling and reigning with Him, learning His ways, growing more and more like Him, who is perfect in love and wisdom. What if he is preparing a wonderful place for those who love Him and He's not opposed to anyone who wants to to join Him? What if He really did rise from the dead? Maybe its worth it to find out the truth about all this, and sort through all the confusion. What if there is a pearl of great price hidden among all the mess of religion? It would behoove us to search for it. What if it is only meant to be found by those who do search? Maybe that would explain why he taught in parables...only those who really looked hard, and tried to understand would ever figure it out. Would that be so far from the reality of how life is? Don't we work hard for many years with the hope of getting ahead and being able to purchase something of great value, like a home? Don't many of us search diligently for a wife or husband, some many times? Why do we think that finding the truth about God and eventually actually "finding" or "meeting" God should be handed to us on a platter without any effort, without any desire?
A GENERAL NOTE TO SKEPTICS FORUM MEMBERS.
I don't think it is a bad thing to be skeptical about things. There is so much deception and contrary evidence at times. And to choose perpetual negativism about all life (my tendancy at times)is certainly not a good thing. That's why I like this forum where people discuss so many types of ideas. Without getting too mushy on you hardheaded, opinionated, characters, I'd like to thank the supporters of this web site and the participants who share their ideas and the hundreds who read the ideas. It has helped me during some very depressing times in my life. Even though so many nail me against the wall so often, at least I know they care enough about something to do it, and to think my idea provoked such a reaction, gives me hope for some reason. I really do appreciate the honesty that so many of you try to maintain in your conversations and an openness to discuss difficult subjects. That being said, I'm putting my armor back on.....heh. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2004 : 23:39:34 [Permalink]
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The Jesus mentioned in a 1700 year old collection of little books written mostly by anonymous authors. If Jesus is a fiction of men, then clearly his teaching were the work of these same men. I'm not claiming that these quotes and stories were originated by these men merely that they recorded them as a part of their work.
Come on Moakley, tell us what you really feel and stop holding back. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2004 : 00:06:17 [Permalink]
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Dave and Moakley,
You are maybe closer than you think in your thoughts about Jesus. He certainly appeared to have delusions of grandeur to many. The leaders of the Jews who condemned Him certainly thought so (they tried to stone Him because He said He was the son of God), but they were also very afraid of Him, because of the many miracles that He did in front of them. He backed up things He said with miracles, like when he said to the palsied man, "Son your sins are forgiven". The religious leaders in the crowd thought he was blaspheming, because only God can forgive sins...then he went and healed the palsied man in front of their eyes explaining "that you may know the son of man has power on earth to forgive sins." No delusional person can back up their delusion with a display of their power, like Jesus did. He prayed to God in what some would call a delusional way, by saying, "Father, I thank you that you've heard my prayer, but I'm praying for the sake of those around me that they might know that you've sent me". Directly after this prayer, the people heard a thundering voice from heaven talking back to Jesus. Then, in a few moments, he commanded his dead friend, Lazarus, to come out of the grave after being dead four days. This, too, would seem to be delusional talk, only, the dead man hopped out of the grave and had to have himself untied from the grave clothes. This blew away the delusional thinking ideas in the minds of the Jews around the grave site, who had been at the funeral a few days earlier. The fear of Jesus's power to do such things was one of the main reasons the Jews plotted to kill him. They were afraid of losing their own positions of power. It seems the Jews didn't think his power was delusional.
Of course, the worst case of delusional thinking would have to be the idea that he would rise from the dead, three days after being killed. This was such a completely imposible idea, that even his disciples couldn't grasp it. Three days after his death he did rise from the dead as witnessed by the guards, the women who came to put spices on his body, the disciples who saw him many times thereafter, Peter, who saw him, and about 500 brethren who all saw him at the same time. Then their was the madman and persecutor, Saul, who saw him and was converted. We have so many witnesses to this fact, with books written about it and confirmation in the prophecies given centuries before that this would occur with most of the details being noted, that one has to question the "delusional" idea as probably coming from one who is unfamiliar with the facts. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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