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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2004 : 19:14:15 [Permalink]
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Over here, filthy wrote:quote:
On a happier note, I'm hearing lots of annual cicadas.
Dangit, I forgot to mention that.
A couple of weeks ago I was out on my deck, and heard a particular buzzing, really loud. I looked around, and sure enough there was a big, green and black, annual cicada, sitting on my deck rail. Sucker flew away before I could get within three feet of it, though. I wonder if they've evolved a finer fear of possible predators than their periodic cousins?
A few days after that, I saw another annual on my neighbor's back fence. Compared to other places I've lived (before now, I'd only ever seen a single annual cicada live in the wild), this neighborhood is thick with them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 20:02:53 [Permalink]
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Ricky, you need to go back to page three or so of this thread. Actually, go back to page one and just start reading.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 20:47:13 [Permalink]
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I'm thinking of taking a kick at this thread again. I've got a couple of good subjects in mind -- got to do some research, yet.
Sure would like to see some others describe the strange and wonderful......
Did you know that the panda's thumb is actually a modified wrist bone? Did you know that the panda even had a thumb?
This topic could be endless and yet never boring.
edited 'cause I've drank a little whiskey and my grammer has become even more amazing. |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 08/12/2004 20:50:06 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 21:02:30 [Permalink]
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One of the reasons I decided to bump the thread with the latest cicada news, filthy, is because we've had a whole bunch of new folks show up since the last time this thread was active. In other words, I'm trying to advertise your idea.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 22:00:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
One of the reasons I decided to bump the thread with the latest cicada news, filthy, is because we've had a whole bunch of new folks show up since the last time this thread was active. In other words, I'm trying to advertise your idea.
10/4, bro.
There are so many and all deserve attention.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 10:13:21 [Permalink]
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I read in the paper recently that opossums have 13 nipples (I can't remember what this had to do with anything in the news) which seemed rather odd (no pun intended) as I thought most if not all land critters had a symmetrical body plan, hence an even number of nips. A little research turned up that
quote:
A female opossum may have as many as 19 nipples within the pouch, but 12 to 14 is the usual number. (http://www.worldalmanacforkids.com/explore/animals/opossum.html)
And from Clay's Corner Opossum Capital of the World (http://www.clayscorner.com/trivia.shtml)
quote:
A female Opossum may have as many as 17 nipples, but 13 is the usual number
The most common number given, however, was 13, as in:
quote:
The opossum gives birth to 16-20 (often more) babies, only 12-13 days after mating - the shortest gestation period of any North American mammal. Newborn opossums are about the size of a grain of rice. They cannot see, but will scramble from their birthplace under their mother's tail, and wriggle across her hairy belly to the safety of her pouch. Most do not survive the journey, as the youngsters must find a nipple, and there are only 13 nipples. (http://www.wildliferescueleague.org/report/opossum.html)
This seems like an interesting evolutionary twist, an animal with a variable nipple count, and possibly asymmetrical at that.
It also makes me wonder why we can put a man on the moon, but not know how many nipples your average opossum has as standard equipment.
P.S. You really should check out the rest of the Clay's Corner website, originating from Brasstown NC
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"Opossum Capital of the World!"...Population 240, Been the same for 100 years or more. Some lady gets pregnant - some guy leaves town.
Where they have "Lowering the Opossum on New Year's Eve.", described as
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"More exciting than when the hogs ate Granny!"
All this, and a jokes page:
quote:
How many fiddle players does it take to eat an opossum?
Two, one to eat it & one to watch for cars.
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 13:04:51 [Permalink]
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Like many marsupials, indeed many animals, 'possums practise a sort of reproductive overkill. The tiny, undeveloped neonates must must climb a long way through the mothers belly fur to get to the pouch. A fair number simply don't make it. Of those that do, some few fail to find a teat. The mother is very tidy and soon cleans the dead ones out of her pouch.
The most I have ever seen in a pouch was five. These were still very small and I have no reason to conclude that all survived. I have heard (unconfirmed) of larger, successful litters, but I'd have to see it to buy it. I think that the average, successful litter is three or four. The last one I looked at had four. That poor li'l gal, with one baby clinging to her back, was walking on her tiptoes and her belly was still dragging the ground. This was a female that followed my old house 'possum home during the love season, to meet the family. She had her litter here and hung out for some three, contentious months. She probably would have stayed (after ditching the kids), but the old guy finally drove her off.
That's a great thing about 'possums; all you ever end up with is one.
To be honest, I don't know how many nipples a 'possum has.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2004 : 23:39:53 [Permalink]
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Actually, we aren't as symmetrical as most people think. My puppies nipples are not symmetrical. And, I imagine different numbers of possum nipples are just a matter of a mutation or two.
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 11:53:16 [Permalink]
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I was watching KET (Kentucky Educational Television) last night with my crumb-snatchers and we saw footage of the Longlure Frogfish (Antennarius multiocellatus)"walking" across the ocean bottom. Here is a link with some excellent photos, but to appreciate it you really need to see it move.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/FrogFish/Frogfish.htm
Since the walking fish is something of a mascot for evolution I have a soft spot in my heart for these guys.
Its common name "longlure" is refers to the elongated illicium (credit to the site for terminology here) which extends from its head above and beyond its mouth and acts as a fishing lure. This is only visible in these photos if you know to look for it.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 14:56:28 [Permalink]
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Well, since Trish vanished into thin air and nobody took up the Quagga, here I go. Horses are my specialty and obsession, anyway.
I must say I begun this search wrongly. I confused the description of the quagga (a striped, horse-like beast, very appealing) with the description of the Przewalskii, both striped, both extinct and both having projects for their reconstitutions. Being familiar with the Przewalskii, I naturally begun searching by this one. I soon learned my mistake when I couldn't find both names in a same site (using Altavista), except a rather confusing taxonomy paper on the Equidae family as a whole.
By searching the quagga (Equus quagga quagga) on its own right, I discovered it was not a horse, per se. It's in fact a subspecies of Burchell's zebra (Equus quagga buchelli, also known as plains zebra) that inhabited the Karoo and southern South Africa. Sadly, this beautiful animal was extinct when the last mare died on August 12th 1883 in an Amsterdan zoo. As it happened with many other grazing mammals, it was hunted to extinction, considered a threat to livestock.
quote:
When the Quagga mare at Amsterdam Zoo died on 12 August 1883, it was not realised that she was the very last of her kind. Because of the confusion caused by the indiscriminate use of the term "Quagga" for any zebra, the true Quagga was hunted to extinction without this being realised until many years later.
The Quagga Project has been trying to bring back this particular subspecies of the Plains Zebra through selective breeding since 1987. The object is to find and sustain the gene for the Quagga's special coloration that has disappeared with this subspecies.
The Quagga differed from the other zebras in which it was not the typical black and white. The stripes were restricted to the face, neck and frontal portion of the body only and being brownish rather than white in the upper parts of its body. The belly and legs were white and stripeless.
There's more about zebras, zebra subspecies and other taxonomic details from where this info came from and how many types of zebras and zebra names are there, but those are details I'll leave for the curious minds.
Not too interesting, but fills the gap left open a couple cicada-oriented pages ago
Source: the Quagga Project homepage. There are pictures and further information on the quagga, as well as info on the project itself.
Edited to fix the URL. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 11/15/2004 15:06:19 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 17:26:54 [Permalink]
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Well, I found it interesting.
I read something on this a few years ago, don't recall where -- might have been National Geographic. If I recall the article correctly, the researchers were enjoying some success.
On a side note, it is extremely difficult to domesticate any of the zebras. I once talked to a professional trainer (I was a farrier at the time and his stable was one of my customers) who tried it with several on a game ranch in, I think, Texas. He said that they were skittish and very quick. They'd strike and kick like lighting, and never pass up a chance to bite.
As I recall, he said that he got two of them trained to saddle, but they were poorly gaited and nervious. He said that he refused to try to train any of them to harness.
Thanks for the read!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 07:04:01 [Permalink]
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The site has some pictures of near-Quagga specimens they managed to breed. It's apparently working.
I don't think those zebras are being domesticated, though, just rounded-up in groups so they've no chance to breed outside the chosen group. Any case, they're cute. Then again, I love horses and other horse-like mongrels.
I bet they weren't good for saddle. Horses have very smooth, slightly curved backs, which isn't the zebra's case: their backs are almost flat. They probably had problems adapting to the rider's weight, but that's just speculation. I wouldn't try to face a mad zebra, though. They're quite strong.
Aaaaand, you're welcome |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 07:45:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
The site has some pictures of near-Quagga specimens they managed to breed. It's apparently working.
I don't think those zebras are being domesticated, though, just rounded-up in groups so they've no chance to breed outside the chosen group. Any case, they're cute. Then again, I love horses and other horse-like mongrels.
I bet they weren't good for saddle. Horses have very smooth, slightly curved backs, which isn't the zebra's case: their backs are almost flat. They probably had problems adapting to the rider's weight, but that's just speculation. I wouldn't try to face a mad zebra, though. They're quite strong.
Aaaaand, you're welcome
It does bring up an interesting question, though.
Much has been made of the domestication of dogs, and even some about cats, but I've read little about horses beyond what a great advantage they would have been to any, ancient group that had some.
Serious agriculture would have been very difficult without horses or oxen. Which brings up the question of when cattle were domesticated.
And indeed, how was it done? As noted, an equine is a fast, strong and tough animal. If a modern zebra is such a handful to a professional, what would it have been like for an ancient to do the same?
My own speculation is that domestication of cattle preceded that of horses. It looks like that would be a little easier, and cattle would be more valuable to the farmer in managability as well as work capability. Oxen, in one form or another, are still used in many parts of the world.
I haven't read enough on any of this.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2004 : 11:36:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Much has been made of the domestication of dogs, and even some about cats, but I've read little about horses beyond what a great advantage they would have been to any, ancient group that had some.
Actually, according to my little research, the horse was first tamed and then domesticated. Tamed, as in raising a then-wild, orphaned foal, not bred in captivity. Possibly for food.
quote:
Serious agriculture would have been very difficult without horses or oxen. Which brings up the question of when cattle were domesticated.
Indeed. Dogs were the first, followed by cats, followed by sheeps, pigs and goats, around 8000 BCE. The cow was domesticated around 6000 BCE. They came after agriculture, but greatly enhanced it, I think.
Horses came after, but it's hard to tell when. They've been domesticated all over the world, and there's a possibility they were just tamed before domesticated, which confuses quite a bit as to when they were indeed domesticated.
quote:
And indeed, how was it done? As noted, an equine is a fast, strong and tough animal. If a modern zebra is such a handful to a professional, what would it have been like for an ancient to do the same?
Especially considering that the only surviving primitive horse we know, the Przewalskii, standing only 12, 13 hands high (a hand equals 10 centimetres), has been known to beat adult warmbloods (16 to 18 hh) in a fight. Fierce little animals, they are...
But I think it has a lot to do with the equine psychology. Horses are, by nature, shy animals. They're fast, they're tough, but they'd rather run than fight. I think I've read something about zebras being more aggressive, but I can't say this for sure.
They also obey a very strict social hierarchy woven around the lead mare; my guess would be, men captured young animals and trained them more or less like we do today, or raised them from foal-hood. In some societies, and even in rural areas, they do it like this: lasso the horse, tie it down so the trainer jumps on the horse's back and holds tight. Eventually the horse will tire and get used to it, getting progressively easier to train, since it'd be a very young horse (two to three years). Much easier with a horse born among humans, as it'd be accustomed to our pesky presence from birth. Also, they might've kept only the 'more sociable' ones, the less stubborn and whatnot.
Again, this is just a guess from what I've read and seen about horses. Such methods are considered cruel by modern horse breeders. World-wide horse trainer Monty Roberts (author of The man who listens to horses - I think that's the original name) suggests the possibility of one 'speaking' the language of horses, i.e., communicating through an imitation of their gestures and overall herd behaviour. Quite a good read for horse lovers.
quote:
My own speculation is that domestication of cattle preceded that of horses. It looks like that would be a little easier, and cattle would be more valuable to the farmer in managability as well as work capability. Oxen, in one form or another, are still used in many parts of the world.
Indeed they are, and indeed they were domesticated first, but the reasons differ in some points. The first use that comes to mind, when talking about horse domestication, is transportation. They weren't domesticated by farmers only; they were also domesticated by nomadic hunter-gatherer tribes.
For more info:
World History - Domestication
World History - Domestication of the Horse
Research Reports - Bone findings and animal domestication
Proto-Turks, Steppes and Horses
edited for coherence and stuff. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 11/16/2004 11:44:49 |
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