|
|
|
|
Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
 Posted - 04/04/2004 : 12:54:27
|
|
I've been thinking...No where is Genesis does it say..I asked God about where we came from and he/she told me this is how it occurred. i mean if the bible is the word of God...who did he tell to write it down in the first place....who wrote Genesis?
|
Baza |
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 13:25:30 [Permalink]
|
Hi Baza,
I'm not an expert on this topic, but according to the christian literalists Mozes wrote the first five books of the Old Testament, so that includes Genesis.
According to mainstream scholars the first five books where actually written by multiple authors. The first two chapters are for example actually written by two different authors, hence there differing creation accounts. I'll have to look up the details to give a more precize answer.
A question I also have, which connects nicely to your question, is whether it is stated anywhere in the pentateuch (the first five books) that Moses wrote these. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
 |
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 13:47:29 [Permalink]
|
Who Wrote the Bible - Part One. From the article:The traditional explanation is that the Five Books of Moses were written by Moses himself.
...
It has long been recognized that there were a few problems with the traditional view of Moses as author. The text reports the death of Moses--how could Moses have written of his own death? It also describes Moses as "the most humble man who ever lived"--how could Moses write that about himself? But these are minor issues. Some say Moses' successor Joshua wrote the few lines that describe the death of Moses; others say that Moses himself was commanded to write that text before it happened. None of this represents a serious challenge to Mosaic authorship.
As time went on, however, scholars became increasingly skeptical of the idea of Moses as single author... I'm betting the authors of that article would have mentioned if the Pentateuch actually said, "Moses wrote this." It undoubtedly says, "Moses said..." in places. But whether or not Moses "penned" any of the original doesn't much matter given the 800 years or so of editing that may or may not have substantially modified the work. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Baza
New Member
United Kingdom
47 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2004 : 14:12:58 [Permalink]
|
| Many thanks...got some reading to do! |
Baza |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 03:10:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
... whether or not Moses "penned" any of the original doesn't much matter given the 800 years or so of editing that may or may not have substantially modified the work.
Some biblical references are listed here. I'm curious, however, as to the calculation(s) behind the "800 years or so" reference. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 03:37:42 [Permalink]
|
Baza and Tom,
I'm going to bed, now, but if I remember correctly, no where in the 'Books of Moses' does it say that Moses was the author. In fact, parts of the first five books of the OT discussed issues that occured after the death of Moses. I believe that both McKinsey's Biblical Errancy and the Skeptic's Annotated Bible mention this. Here's the links;
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/
http://www.sanfords.net/Framed_pages/skeptics_annotated_bible.htm
Enjoy...No self-respecting Biblical skeptic is fully armed without these sites to refer to. There are more, but these are the most complete and easy to use. Biblical Errancy covers more ground, but SAB is best for easy and quick reference. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
|
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 09:39:08 [Permalink]
|
thnx for the links. They're great! |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2004 : 20:50:58 [Permalink]
|
ConsequentAtheist wrote:quote:
I'm curious, however, as to the calculation(s) behind the "800 years or so" reference.
For one thing, I used the term "editing" loosely. It implies purposeful changes, which was not my intent.
As for the "calculation," from the article I quoted:1250 to 1000 BC ... The histories of the tribes of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Moses are told orally, handed down from generation to generation. And:From 450 BC on the document was fixed--no more changes. And then I subtracted.
Doing the same thing with the 1,450 BC number listed on the ReligiousTolerance page you linked to gives us a figure of 1,000 years between "inception" and "completion" of the Pentateuch, if I'm not mistaken. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 03:42:43 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Doing the same thing with the 1,450 BC number listed on the ReligiousTolerance page you linked to gives us a figure of 1,000 years between "inception" and "completion" of the Pentateuch, if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks. It seems that both variants presume the historicity of Moses. Absent that, the Exodus narrative might well have evolved at a far later date. Also, I wonder where the fictive "450 BC" date come from? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 05:32:15 [Permalink]
|
ConsequentAtheist wrote:quote:
Thanks. It seems that both variants presume the historicity of Moses. Absent that, the Exodus narrative might well have evolved at a far later date.
Not at all. They seem to me to only presume that stories attributed to Moses about the Exodus began being told around the earlier date(s). It seems analogous to not having to assume the existence of Homer to calculate possible dates for the emergence of the tales attributed to him.quote:
Also, I wonder where the fictive "450 BC" date come from?
Hmmm. One would have to examine Freidman's book, or another work which agrees with it. If we use the dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls, instead, we can add another 350 years to the length of time the Pentateuch may have been in flux, or upwards of 1,350 years. 800 years seems conservative. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 20:18:19 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
ConsequentAtheist wrote:quote:
Thanks. It seems that both variants presume the historicity of Moses. Absent that, the Exodus narrative might well have evolved at a far later date.
Not at all. They seem to me to only presume that stories attributed to Moses about the Exodus began being told around the earlier date(s).
And the reason for such a presumption would be what? If not for the presumption of historicity, why locate these stories earlier than the 7th century BCE. So, for example:
quote:
... we can now genuinely speak of unanimity of the evidence. Whoever supplied the geographic information that now adorns the story had no information earlier than the Saite period (seventh to sixth centuries B.C.). The eastern Delta and Sinai he describes are those of the 26th Dynasty kings and the early Persian overloards: his toponyms reflect the renewed interest in the eastern frontier evidence for this period by fort building and canalization. He knows of "Goshen" of the Qedarite Arabs, and a legendary "Land of Ramessses." He cannot locate the Egyptian court to anything but the largest and most famous city in his own day in the northeastern Delta, namely Tanis, the royal residence from about 1075 to 725 B.C., ...
-- Egypt, Cannan, and Israel in Ancient Times by Donald B. Redford
|
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
