|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 03/25/2002 : 19:49:08 [Permalink]
|
"I think any time someone feel that they are threaten into having sex it should be considerede rape. I think that rape is pretty cut and dry, if you have sex with someone who doesn't want to it is rape."
So if you are married and you threaten to get a divorce if you don't get sex it's rape? Is that what you mean?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
 |
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2002 : 23:27:18 [Permalink]
|
[quote]So if you are married and you threaten to get a divorce if you don't get sex it's rape? Is that what you mean?[/quote]
I would say it is. If I threaten someone for sex, that is rape.
-me. |
|
|
|
Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 07:11:29 [Permalink]
|
Say a couple is having a rocky relationship, things aren't going to well. The wife is upset because the husband doesn't seem to be paying as much attention to her anymore. She is getting frustrated because she tries to initiate intimate encounters, but the husband keeps saying "I'm just not in the mood."
Finally, in frustration, the woman says that she is getting fed up, and is thinking about leaving him, because he doesn't pay attention anymore.
So the guy has sex with her.
Was he raped?
------------
Sum Ergo Cogito |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 10:08:53 [Permalink]
|
[quote]Was he raped?[/quote]
Yup. If the only reason he did it was to prevent her from leaving, he sure was.
-me. |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 10:13:52 [Permalink]
|
You know there are a lot of people that assume getting married means having sex once in a while. Say the couple hasn't had sex in ohhh a couple years. Is it unreasonable for the person that wants sex to consider going elsewhere. It might not be stated as a threat but as a fact because that's what the person has to do. That's rape? I just don't follow.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 05:31:28 [Permalink]
|
[quote] Say a couple is having a rocky relationship, things aren't going to well. The wife is upset because the husband doesn't seem to be paying as much attention to her anymore. She is getting frustrated because she tries to initiate intimate encounters, but the husband keeps saying "I'm just not in the mood."
Finally, in frustration, the woman says that she is getting fed up, and is thinking about leaving him, because he doesn't pay attention anymore.
So the guy has sex with her.
[/quote]
Tokyo, I would not consider this rape. I would consider it blackmail, though. And, I would consider it trite, and an insult to those that have experienced the horrors of being taken against their will.
In this case he consented to the sexual act, and participated willingly. There was no threat of immediate harm. Other ways could have been found and agreed upon long before the threat of divorce could have been carried out.
All sexual acts, or just about any other act performed on or to the human body requires reasoned consent. When no consent is given, there is a violation.
The threat of physical harm removes all consent, as does age and mental or physical capacity, though degrees are debatable here, only, (unless a competent person is threatenned with future harm, and that competent person can conceive of no alternative). Always though, the alternatives should be considered when there is a question of reasoned consent.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 13:25:31 [Permalink]
|
[quote]You know there are a lot of people that assume getting married means having sex once in a while. [/quote]
I believe that is a safe assumption, but it is not a fact.
[quote]Say the couple hasn't had sex in ohhh a couple years. Is it unreasonable for the person that wants sex to consider going elsewhere. [/quote]
Not unreasonable to consider, but I would hope this person would first check other considerations.
[quote]It might not be stated as a threat but as a fact because that's what the person has to do. [/quote]
I may state as a fact, not a threat, that if Johnny doesn't give me five dollars I'll beat him up. It is what I have to do to get that five dollars. It's still a threat, and it still forces a decision: it is duress. It is not my right to that money, I should just live without it if I can't get it morally.
I admit, this is a very mild case, and I am not saying is on par with forcible violation, but it is just over that borderline between OK and Just Plain Wrong. It seems odd that somebody would not want to get randy with their spouse for years. I would first recommend professional help before the threat of leaving.
BTW, to address that particular case, a marriage should be far more than sex. What if the spouse gets paralyzed from the waist down? I would understand somebody leaving, but I would think him/her a terrible person.
-me. |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 13:40:23 [Permalink]
|
Suppose that this imaginary couple did go to counseling and that didn't help and the couple had discussed it and the party not wanting sex conceded not due to any threat but just because they see that if they don't the odds are that the marriage will fall apart. That could be seen as against their will but it's not blackmail if someone "sees the writing on the wall" so to speak.
Even if it was done in a way that could be called blackmail i think it's quite a reach to call that rape. If that's true then rape is just an ordinary part of being human.
Yes I could see that there are situations where physical force is not used and it could still be rape but if someone knows where the door is and they still decide it's better to give it up than to go it alone i would hardly call that rape. I would call it a hard choice. I think calling such a situation dramatically diminishes what we generally think of when we hear the word rape.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 15:06:15 [Permalink]
|
Still, the question of rape comes down to one simple word. Consent. The only exception is duress of a certain magnitude, which, I think, would be extremely rare. We have a slogan within some alternative lifestyles, "No means NO! End of conversation." I only wish it were that easy in real life, especially when young people are concerned.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 15:47:23 [Permalink]
|
I just want to add something in regards to the comment about someone being paralyzed. I don't see how the threat of leaving because of not having sex even applies because for many it's not even possible to make a decision or be pushed/bullied into it. Whether the spouse stays in this instance is perhaps an issue for another topic.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 00:28:44 [Permalink]
|
[quote]Suppose that this imaginary couple did go to counseling and that didn't help and the couple had discussed it and the party not wanting sex conceded not due to any threat but just because they see that if they don't the odds are that the marriage will fall apart. [/quote]
First, to go off on a tangent, if somebody's partner would leave if there is no sex, maybe they're better off apart anyway. Sex is not the most important thing in a relationship.
Another aside, if someone is unwilling to have sex with his/her partner for a significant period of time, perhaps there are deeper issues at work there anyway.
[quote]That could be seen as against their will but it's not blackmail if someone "sees the writing on the wall" so to speak.[/quote]
What is it, then?
[quote]Even if it was done in a way that could be called blackmail i think it's quite a reach to call that rape. [/quote]
I believe Tim stated that a threat of physical harm removes consent. I would extend this to say a threat of any harm, physical or mental, would remove consent. I am trying to keep this very general, because if there are other options they should be considered by the person threatened; however, if this person feels (s)he cannot live without somebody who would leave solely due to a lack of sex, there is quite possibly a history of emotional abuse involved.
[quote]If that's true then rape is just an ordinary part of being human.[/quote]
I hope not. I am a male in his mid 20s (supposed to be the horniest demographic), and I will not have sex with a woman if I feel she's not into it. That does nothing for me.
[quote]Yes I could see that there are situations where physical force is not used and it could still be rape but if someone knows where the door is and they still decide it's better to give it up than to go it alone i would hardly call that rape. I would call it a hard choice. [/quote]
I would wonder what caused this person to endure unconsenting sex with somebody solely to prevent that person from leaving.
[quote]I think calling such a situation dramatically diminishes what we generally think of when we hear the word rape.[/quote]
Rape is, if I am not mistaken, unconsenting sex; at its most severe, it is quite possibly the worst thing one person can do to another. There are various degrees of rape. Some rapes are not as evil as others. Similarly (and I am not saying these are similar crimes, they just both have gradients), somebody could steal my car and it would upset me; or, somebody could steal a trinket from the floor of my room and I wouldn't really consider it. They are both stealing, they are both wrong, but one is more severe than the other. Calling the latter "stealing" in no way diminishes the impact of the theft of my car, nor would it trivialize it.
-me. |
|
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 10:02:04 [Permalink]
|
Hmmmm.....may have to ramble a bit.
Opinion first: No, it's not even close to rape if someone 'threatens' to leave the marriage if the partner refuses sex.
Would it be rape if prior to getting married one person placed as a condition the requirement for sex of a certain type and frequency? I don't think so. You can defensibly think it makes the person a lowlife, a bum, a pervert, a whatever, but not a rapist. If the potential partner consents to the condition, it is not duress.
As to the related comments that sex is not the most important part of a marriage or a relationship, I agree. But it is a part, and a significant one, or can be. Sex was significant to me in my marriage and remains significant in some of my relationships (do not assume anything by my use of the plural; it's hard to word this properly).
If I enter into another permanent relationship it will PROBABLY be with the communicated expectation of an active sex life. If later my partner loses the ability to have sex, it very well may not cause me to leave as there are other aspects of a relationship, and even significant aspects such as sex can be voluntarily and happily conceded in order to maintain other aspects. But possibly I might leave, simply because of the loss of sex. That may rightly label me as shallow or as scum, but not as a rapist.
If my partner, on the other hand, voluntarily withholds sex without a physical or medical reason to do so, I think I would be LIKELY to leave the relationship and I do not think it would place me in the category of lowlife.
I want intelligent discussion, too. If my partner suddenly decides to stop talking about anything except the Jerry Springer show, and I threaten to leave if she doesn't also talk about the Simpsons, is it mental rape when she concedes?
---
Now I've lost the thread. Maybe more later.
Ta ta from the happy misogynist.
My kids still love me. |
|
|
|
Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 13:53:24 [Permalink]
|
[quote]As to the related comments that sex is not the most important part of a marriage or a relationship, I agree. But it is a part, and a significant one, or can be. [/quote]
I agree that it is important.
[quote]If my partner, on the other hand, voluntarily withholds sex without a physical or medical reason to do so, I think I would be LIKELY to leave the relationship and I do not think it would place me in the category of lowlife.[/quote]
As I said, there would be deeper issues at play here. If there is no medical reason not to have sex, and one member of a couple in love still refuses, there is something emotionally wrong. There are only a few reasons I can think of in which this would be the case, and if counselling does not help, then the couple is better off apart anyway.
But that is not the point I am trying to make. We are all aware of the phrase "no means no," so I will ask this: at what point does "yes" mean "no?" It is when the ability for rational thought is not there. This happens when a person is under the influence of drugs, or is threatened. In my opinion, the only difference between physical and emotional abuse is that one is easier to prove and identify. Thus, I would say there is little difference between the [i]threat[/i] of physical abuse and the threat of mental abuse.
As I implied before, the case @tomic has presented is so slight that it is, though not right, almost not wrong either.
[quote]I want intelligent discussion, too. If my partner suddenly decides to stop talking about anything except the Jerry Springer show, and I threaten to leave if she doesn't also talk about the Simpsons, is it mental rape when she concedes?[/quote]
I am unfamiliar with the term "mental rape," but I don't see an unconsenting cranial violation here.
Besides, you can stay together if the sex is good, eh? (That is a joke, by the way. A really bad one, I know)
-me. |
|
|
|
Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 14:22:57 [Permalink]
|
Yeah, I can put up with a whole heck of a lot for good sex...
[quote]Originally posted by Boron10:
But that is not the point I am trying to make. We are all aware of the phrase "no means no," so I will ask this: at what point does "yes" mean "no?" It is when the ability for rational thought is not there. This happens when a person is under the influence of drugs, or is threatened. [/quote]
I'll agree with this.
But I will not agree with the responsibility necessarily being laid upon the male. If a male/female couple gets drunk to the same degree of incapacity, and each says yes at a point where the female would have said no if sober, why must the male be held to blame? Especially if he would also have said no if sober.
Is it only the female who can be raped?
Is it only the female who can use the 'yes means no' defense?
If the temporary loss of rational capacity opens the door to 'yes meaning no' does it not then also open the door to drunkenness as a defense against the charge of rape?
My kids still love me. |
|
|
|
Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 19:34:29 [Permalink]
|
The discussion about the couple, and the woman considers leaving and the man has sex with her is plainly not rape.
First of all, I'd say I heard about one story of a woman raping a man, and I've lost count on the number of times a man has raped a woman.
If the man in the above situations couple DECIDES to have sex with his wife to keep her around, he has made a decision. He may not enjoy the act, but there is no use of physical force.
What about the couples who have sex on, say, Wednesdays? Whether they really want to or not, it's just the habit? Who says a prostitute really wants to have sex with the client? But she does, because if not her pimp might beat her up, or she can't afford her rent. Is that rape?
Of course it is tricky. Say a man abducts some woman's child and tells her to have sex with him or he'll kill the child. Is that rape?
Of course rape is not part of human nature. Or we might see a lot more women trying to rape hapless men. As far as I've read rape is far more about violence and control and humiliation than sex. For the reason that sex is one of the most intimate things between people.
Garrette> Since men are usually physically stronger than women, it is men who rape women. The few cases of a woman raping a man are that. Few and far between. It's the same with incest. How many mothers have you heard of, who molested their sons?
If you by “yes means no” refer to women who willingly have sex, and then turn around and accuse the man of rape, yes. I've never heard of it the other way around. Maybe it's because men would think it terribly humiliating to confess to have been raped by a woman?
With that said, a woman who wrongly accuses some hapless man of rape, should get the same sentence in jail, as the man would've got if there was a rape.
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
