|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2004 : 22:41:57
|
In a world that is so open to everything, why do people still try to convince me how wrong I am in my beliefs? There could be a whore in your living room, and if you knew about it you would most likly say to yourself, "well, that's the way they wanna live there life". And would'nt tell them about how you don't think you should do this, for the following reasons.
So why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas? Is it because they deep dow, see the validity of many of our points? Is it because were so prominent, and so many people believe? You tell me wat it is, because I can't figur it out.
|
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 00:07:49 [Permalink]
|
I care not in the least what someone else's spiritual beliefs might be. If someone is certain that his deity resides in a tree in my back yard, he's free to worship that tree as long as he's not too noisey about it or trashes the place. Or gets missionary urges toward a certain heathen. 'Live and let live' works both ways.
But C'88, you keep throwin' 'em out there for comment, and, accomadating fellows that we are, we comment. 
Speaking for myself, I am not an evangelical atheist. I would not take your faith away from you even if I could, although I might ask you to consider some of the more outlandish aspects of Christianity and the Bible stories with a bit of critical thinking. But otherwise, if you're happy with it, I'm happy for you. 
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
 |
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 00:11:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
In a world that is so open to everything, why do people still try to convince me how wrong I am in my beliefs?
Odd thing to ask in a skeptic forum.
If you can't stand the heat.... |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 01:38:37 [Permalink]
|
| It's not that I can't stand the heat. And it's not even a critisism. It was more just an observation. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
|
|
|
ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 04:41:55 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
... why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas?
Ignorance is offensive. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 04:56:19 [Permalink]
|
Your idea that reality is immoral and offensive is potentially harmful to you and to others.
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 05:08:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
So why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas? Is it because they deep down, see the validity of many of our points? Is it because were so prominent, and so many people believe? You tell me what it is, because I can't figure it out.
As Filthy said, "It works both ways." If by "deep down" you mean thinking from the heart, then by all means continue to do so. I just don't see it as a consistent nor reliable approach to evaluating the merits of any idea or assertion. It implies faith, and as it has been said many times, faith is without limits, absent any consistent or reliable way for independent evaluation.
If you do not want to hear ideas contrary to your faith, then Please do not try to legislate your faith or turn fables into science.
Works both ways. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 06:06:05 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
In a world that is so open to everything, why do people still try to convince me how wrong I am in my beliefs? There could be a whore in your living room,
Actually, no. I don't have a living room. :-)
quote:
and if you knew about it you would most likly say to yourself, "well, that's the way they wanna live there life". And would'nt tell them about how you don't think you should do this, for the following reasons.
So why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas? Is it because they deep dow, see the validity of many of our points? Is it because were so prominent, and so many people believe? You tell me wat it is, because I can't figur it out.
Which ones of your points do I find valid, you say? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 06:44:04 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
In a world that is so open to everything, why do people still try to convince me how wrong I am in my beliefs?
We're not trying to convince you that your faith is wrong, we're trying to convince you that your faith is unprovable.
quote:
There could be a whore in your living room, and if you knew about it you would most likly say to yourself, "well, that's the way they wanna live there life".
Theres a big difference between my living room and in the world in general. In my living room, I have a reasonable expectation of ownership. Therefore, the "whore" would be there by my invitation and I would have accepted their situation or might be trying to convince them that their occupation was risky. There's only been one whore in my living room and I divorced her.
quote:
And would'nt tell them about how you don't think you should do this, for the following reasons.
And the reasons flow from an expression of faith. We acknowledge the expression of faith, we just don't agree with it. At which time, the individual (a.k.a. Thumper) usually makes several fallacious appeals to consequences.
quote:
So why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas?
It's not the ideas, it's the "Sister Bertha Better-than-you" attitude.
quote:
Is it because they deep dow, see the validity of many of our points?
Nope.
quote:
Is it because were so prominent, and so many people believe?
Nope. It's when you start pushing for it to be taught in schools as fact or require it for "moral training". It's my damn kid, I'll raise him as I see fit. Your Arguementum ad populum logical fallacy likewise fails. Just because a lot of people believe it to be so, does not absolutely make it so.
quote:
You tell me wat it is, because I can't figur it out.
Hopefully, this has answered some of these questions. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 06:48:26 [Permalink]
|
I agree with filthy; it isn't the faith of believers that troubles me. I sometimes wish I shared that faith.
However, because some believers take political positions I strongly disagree with--and they VOTE--I do feel compelled to speak out.
You, C88, have posted views I see as sexist and bigoted. I feel compelled to speak out against those things because I believe strongly in equality for all people--even women in the clergy and even (gasp) homosexuals.
Many fundamentalist Christians are also anti-abortion, and I believe strongly in a woman's right to choose. If you (general 'you') threaten that right, I'll speak out.
It must be the idealist in me that thinks that maybe, just maybe, I might plant a seed in someone's head that might grow into a more tolerant, open-minded belief.
|
|
|
|
Maglev
Skeptic Friend
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 08:47:05 [Permalink]
|
I think that most SFNers appreciate your presence on this board C88; you did start a few interesting threads, and it would be somewhat of a boring forum if everybody agreed on everything... Yes, sometimes you've managed to anger/annoy some of us, but all in all, I think we've been tolerent of your ideas. Just dont forget that it's a discussion forum, and if you throw us a bone, we'll snatch it up before it hits the ground.
quote:
So why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas?
Because they are not ideas; they are dogmas. You've been told The Truth, and you're spreading it around. And personnaly, I find dogma to be a bit offensive...
quote:
Is it because they deep dow, see the validity of many of our points?
No. Why do you keep coming back to this board? Is it because deep down you see the absence of validity to your points? Why do you persist in living in a dream world? Is it more comforting than reality? |
Maglev
"The awe it inspired in me made the awe that people talk about in respect of religious experience seem, frankly, silly beside it. I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day."
--Douglas Adams, on evolutionary biology. |
|
|
|
LOGOS
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 09:23:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
[[In a world that is so open to everything, why do people still try to convince me how wrong I am in my beliefs? There could be a whore in your living room, and if you knew about it you would most likly say to yourself, "well, that's the way they wanna live there life". And would'nt tell them about how you don't think you should do this, for the following reasons.
So why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas? Is it because they deep dow, see the validity of many of our points? Is it because were so prominent, and so many people believe? You tell me wat it is, because I can't figur it out.]]
Well, for several reasons.
1. Atheists are persecuted minorities in America and in many other nations. Asking atheists why they proclaim what they do is like asking a man who is discriminated against for their race, "Why do you keep telling everyone that you're a man just like they are"?
2. Rationalists absolutely cannot fathom (this includes me, of course) how anyone can continue to believe that 2 = 7. The absurd and the self-contradictory must be false, yet the BELIEVERS continue to believe what makes them emotionally comfortable, regardless of the insanity of what they choose to believe. How many ducks went onto the ark? One verse in Genesis says two, another says seven, and yet a few more say that two went on as god said that they would. One verse says that seven each of the clean beasts will go on the ark, and that the unclean went on by two's; and another says that the clean AND the unclean went onto the ark by two's.
2 = 7; this is absurd, as is the notion of talking snakes, unicorns, witches and wizards, devils, and omniscient god that does not know everything and an omnipotent god that cannot apparently control the devil, and last but not least, a man that rises after being dead for three days to have a light snack, pass on his magical powers, and then fly to heaven. This is absurd and there is no material evidence for any of it. If you were told of a man who rose again yesterday, after being dead for three days, had a nice fish sandwich, and then flew to heaven to be with his dad, you probably wouldn't believe it either, just as I presume you don't believe in Thor or Zeus. You see, we just can't get past the idea that perfectly normal seeming folks do not believe that I am a supernatural vampire, and yet believe in talking snakes beguiling people to eat a magic fruit. We can't get past the idea that seemingly normal folks choose to believe in absolutely silly absurd things for no good reason.
The god of Abraham is a god that reportedly drowned almost everyone on earth because they were flawed, and then decided that he made a mistake. The ironic absurdity of this smacks me square in the face, as I think it would any reasonably intelligent person, and yet this fact seems to have totally escaped the 'omniscient' god. Yup, skipped right off the top of his flat noggin. Whoosh!!
|
LOGOS |
| Edited by - LOGOS on 04/27/2004 09:36:18 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 09:36:48 [Permalink]
|
The duck question is an easy one: there were 73 of them, one drake and seventy two hens, and they were all Argentine Lake Ducks. The drake of the Argentine Lake Duck has a corkscrew penis as long as it's entire body, and needs 72 ladies! 
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2004 : 12:26:33 [Permalink]
|
Maglev wrote:quote:
Why do you keep coming back to this board?
Actually, I'd like to say that whatever motivation creation88 has for returning, I'm somewhat glad for it. Every time I find myself prompted to do research about some point or other that he (or Doomar, or Hippy4Christ, etc.) brings up, I wind up learning something.
As to creation88's OP, however...quote:
In a world that is so open to everything, why do people still try to convince me how wrong I am in my beliefs? There could be a whore in your living room, and if you knew about it you would most likly say to yourself, "well, that's the way they wanna live there life". And would'nt tell them about how you don't think you should do this, for the following reasons.
No, you're actually wrong here. If this hypothetical whore defended being a whore by saying that whoredom is the only way to be moral; that evolution denies whoredom and that therefore, evolution is the work of the Antiwhore, I'd be telling the whore pretty much the same things I say to you and other conservative Christians who show up here.
If, on the other hand, the whore makes no moral or scientific pronouncements based upon her whoredom, and appears to be fully and correctly informed about both the pros and cons of whoring and chooses to remain a whore, then sure: live and let live.
That's the thing, C88: when you first showed up here, you rejected evolutionary theories based upon ideas which are, at best, a grotesque caricature of what the theories really are, and thus you were not "fully and correctly informed" about what you were railing against. Unfortunately, it turns out you're not fully and correctly informed about the Bible, either.
So, since your knowledge of evolution is inadequate, and your knowledge of the Bible is spotty in at least one instance, how is it that you can, with a straight face, either defend your religion or attack evolutionary theory? And is it really any wonder why people here are quick to disagree with you?
(Hey, folks, whaddaya think: do I win the "most uses of the word 'whore' and variations in a single post" award?) |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Woody D
Skeptic Friend
Thailand
285 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 00:11:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by creation88
So why does everyone seem so offended by our ideas? Is it because they deep dow, see the validity of many of our points? Is it because were so prominent, and so many people believe? You tell me wat it is, because I can't figur it out.
I'm not offended by your ideas but by the attitudes of recent past and present people who say they are religious.
I can explain how I got to this point....maybe later if you want but for now in a word...Pushy.
If the religious...or anyone else for that matter would keep their ideas to themself and only talk about them when appropriate or asked some of us wouldn't be so bothered. But to push their ideas on others when they know it's not appreciated is not nice. I have some nice friends who are religious, we get along fine because it's the one thing we don't have in common and we don't need to discuss it. If P. Bush for example would stop mentioning god in his speeches that would be find with me too. I'm tired of hearing about things I don't believe in.
Don't know if that answers your question but that's one reason of mine, being bombarded by it.....enough is enough. I mean, shut up already. We know you believe, you don't have to keep yelling about it.
nlm
ps. that was not personal to creation, he did say 'our'. |
www.Carabao.net
As long as there's, you know, sex and drugs, I can do without the rock and roll.
Mick Shrimpton
|
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 08:34:23 [Permalink]
|
Nothing to add really. Creation88, I do think you are wrong in your interpretation of the bible, and whenever I think someone is wrong somewhere in this forum, I will adress that. This is why I come to this forum.
To me, your belief is on some points discriminating to other people, and that is another reason I will be reacting to it. But I think I already wrote this in another thread.
However, I also have to say that I am very glad that you want to share your viewpoints with us and aren't afraid of discussing your viewpoints. This is something a lot of people (both christians and non-christians) avoid, and something which I respect. We might not convince each other, but we do learn from each other this way and maybe gain some understanding about each other. Which is another reason for me to be on the forum. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
