|
|
|
byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
 Posted - 05/08/2004 : 14:40:09 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Yesterday I saw pictures in Swedish news of Americans (fan photo of themselves) torturing Iraqi POW in Baghdad. There were several pictured of very degrading treatment, and one that couldn't be classified as anything but torture.
One of the Swedish reporters stationed in Washington D.C. was asked about the media coverage in the US, and his reply was that to his knowledge, CBS was the only one that really dared to make this headline news. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
My question to my skeptic friends living in America: Is the reporter right? Has the majority of the American news-agencies been scared(?) or otherwise coerced into not making this big news?
Given the time elapsed, is media coming around, now that CBS cleared the way?
The number of American soldiers that have done this is very small, and does not by any means represent the American troops stationed in Iraq, but it is of critical importance that everything is done by-the-book. For the sake of everyone. America has lost too much credibility already, and cannot afford to loose more.
--
That's not the idea I got at all. It seemed to me as if almost every station was covering it. I was looking around and saw not only the Rumsfeld hearings but also just coverage of it on, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX,
UPN, FOX News, CNN, as well as a couple local Boston stations. So no I thought they covered it thoroughly.
On the issue itself.... It is a sad sad day when American soldiers, who are revered across the country for there service, are caught red-handed torturing prisoners.
This to say the least is not what America is about. But there are some idiots out there. And they truly showed ther colors when those pictures came out.
No matter what those prisoners did to us, they still don't deserve that. We should be showing them how to treat a human being. Not re-inforcing what they alrady know.
[Fixed quoting - Dave W.] |
 |
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2004 : 15:53:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
creation88:
On the issue itself.... It is a sad sad day when American soldiers, who are revered across the country for there service, are caught red-handed torturing prisoners.
It is also sad that our government was informed of the atrocities as early as last summer by the Red Cross. Frankly, I think the bigger issue is how that information was treated by people in our government and the military. It may have been a small number of people committing the crimes at the prisons, but that number jumps if you include those who did nothing when they learned about what was going on or tried to hide that information. I think we are at only seeing the tip of this iceberg... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 07:17:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
creation88:
On the issue itself.... It is a sad sad day when American soldiers, who are revered across the country for there service, are caught red-handed torturing prisoners.
It is also sad that our government was informed of the atrocities as early as last summer by the Red Cross.
I have a hard time believing that media was unaware if it at that time. The Red Cross does not exclusively report to the US government. The same goes for Amnesty International. I can't imagine them NOT releasing this info to the media when it was available.
quote:
It may have been a small number of people committing the crimes at the prisons, but that number jumps if you include those who did nothing when they learned about what was going on or tried to hide that information. I think we are at only seeing the tip of this iceberg...
Women and children caught in the crossfire are more than just collateral damage. Images on TV of American soldiers firing aimlessly into urban areas makes me wonder... neither the camera crew nor the soldiers themselves know where those bullets are going to wind up. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/10/2004 07:22:04 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 08:00:33 [Permalink]
|
Were I President -- whatever Powers That Might Be forbid -- people would be afraid to walk the halls of the White House lest they be run over by a rolling head. And I would roll those heads personally because before the world, this reflects upon me persoanlly, as well as my country.
But then, I would have not have had an army in Iraq to start with. I'd have been too busy looking for the ones actually responsible for 9/11 to fool around with some tinpot dictator who was no threat to anyone beyond the borders of his virtually third world country. Saddam would have gone in due course.
As for the media, we live in an atmosphere of bullshit. They only put out the truth when it suits their agendas or if they're forced into it. Not all, perhaps, but most of the major organizations. I'm happy to see that they are now being forced; perhaps the only good thing to come out of Iraq.
Arrgh!
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2004 : 09:20:47 [Permalink]
|
Dr. Mabuse wrote:quote:
I have a hard time believing that media was unaware if it at that time. The Red Cross does not exclusively report to the US government. The same goes for Amnesty International. I can't imagine them NOT releasing this info to the media when it was available.
According to interviews with a Red Cross spokesperson on NPR last week, they claim that they do their best work when it's not publicized. And it seems to me it'd be a lot easier to gain full access to government-held buildings if you tell that government that you're not going to hand your findings directly to the media. A sort of "you let us in, and we won't give the report to anyone else" deal. It would let them work out in the open.
Amnesty International, as I understand things (and I'm not sure that my understanding is correct), is much more likely to use the horrors they turn up as a political bludgeon with which to club the offending government into submission. Again, as I understand things, a lot of the information they get is collected surreptitiously, rather than with the permission and protection of the government in question. That's a lot more work and risk than the Red Cross has to undertake. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2004 : 03:54:06 [Permalink]
|
As far as the Red Cross is concerned, I was unable to find any reference to turning over previous findings of prisoner abuse to the media. However, they do mention several times recently that they turned their findings over to the coallition forces.
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList74/7EE8626890D74F76C1256E8D005D3861
I could not find any mentions of abuse at Abu Ghraib or elsewhere on the ICRC website previous to the recent release of the pictures.
As for the administration claim that they released the original reports of abuse to the media in february of 2004, I searched the DoD archives in depth, but found nothing of the kind in that month. I searched the DoD news, Advisories, live briefings, Releases, Slides, Speeches, Articles, Television and Radio. I found nothing.
However, the actual release may be found somewhere in the body of a speech or interview and I simply missed it. Furthermore, the DoD may have released it by some other means. Nevertheless, where ever they released it from seems to be well hidden--At least to me!
The best I can do for a time line as to what who knew when comes from the left wing rag Counterpunch.
http://www.counterpunch.org/hrw05042004.html
And, this seems only to focus on the group Human Rights Watch.
I Googled quite a few pages, but was unable to find references to Iraqi prisoner abuses or torture, (just in case), at the hands of Americans prior to this month.
Amnesty International seems to have had releases concerning human rights abuses in March of this year, but not in February.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-irq/index
If such stories were released directly to the press via interviews I do not know. I need Lexus/Nexus and a whole lot more time.
edited because I can't type! |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
|
| Edited by - Tim on 05/11/2004 04:00:13 |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 06:25:54 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
With the current leadership, the smell of "scum" seems closer to home, each day... :(
Do you really think that things were much better under the "Dynamic Duo" --- Messrs. Clinton and Clinton?
(A serious question, N.W.) |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 06:56:07 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Yesterday I saw pictures in Swedish news of Americans (fan photo of themselves) torturing Iraqi POW in Baghdad. There were several pictured of very degrading treatment, and one that couldn't be classified as anything but torture.
One of the Swedish reporters stationed in Washington D.C. was asked about the media coverage in the US, and his reply was that to his knowledge, CBS was the only one that really dared to make this headline news. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml
My question to my skeptic friends living in America: Is the reporter right? Has the majority of the American news-agencies been scared(?) or otherwise coerced into not making this big news?
Given the time elapsed, is media coming around, now that CBS cleared the way?
The number of American soldiers that have done this is very small, and does not by any means represent the American troops stationed in Iraq, but it is of critical importance that everything is done by-the-book. For the sake of everyone. America has lost too much credibility already, and cannot afford to loose more.
Sorry to be so slow to throw in my "two bits" in response to the direct question: "Is the U.S. media covering up?".
I think that the answer is "No".
(And this blunt "no" comes from someone who just posted a thread suggesting that the Media's timing on this story was a bullfighter's "Ole!" to distract everyone from the brutal story of rapidly rising food prices.) (Since posting that thread over in Conspiracies, milk prices have bounced up 50 cents per gallon.)
I strongly suspect that the U.S. News Media (--- to be sharply distinguished from the U.S. Entertainment Media ---) very simply did not want to be turned into pimps for the California pornography industry.
For example, it was only yesterday that it was finally revealed that the photo of Pvt. First Class England pointing at, and giving the "thumbs up" to, a prisoners crotch was actually a photo of the prisoner masterbating. On orders from the guards, perhaps.
Up until yesterday, I had thought that she, PFC England, was 'merely' making fun of his dork. 'Twere it to have been me and mine, 'twould have been a very shrunken, shrivelled dork, hiding in terror lest the guards were to sic one of their guard-dogs on it --- as if it were a wee sausage-snack that needed to be torn out of my crotch.
(There was a picture of that, with the prisoner cruicified on cell bars with handcuffs,---but, in that photo, the prisoner's dork was not visible.)
Masterbating! In front of a female guard with a big smile on her face! If that doesn't qualify as pronography I don't know what does.
The U.S. News Media has always, with near desperation, tried to maintain a 'proper' and 'appropriate' distance from the U.S. Entertainment Industry --- something not easy to do since "entertainment" is very profitable but "news" seldom so. If the U.S. News Media seems to be "covering up" the Iraqi prisoner torture story, IMO it was/is only to avoid becoming "prime time porn".
(Edited to add links and fix minor blots.) |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 05/17/2004 07:04:17 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 08:14:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NubiWan
With the current leadership, the smell of "scum" seems closer to home, each day... :(
[quote]Do you really think that things were much better under the "Dynamic Duo" --- Messrs. Clinton and Clinton?
(A serious question, N.W.)
Actually, yes. We had a strong economy, a balanced budget and a surplus. That's all gone, now.
And, as Clinton was paying attention, there is a good chance that the Twin Towers might still be standing.
Further, I doubt that we'd be wasting lives, limbs, blood and material in Iraq for the profit of the friends of a liar, coward, thief and traitor.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 11:39:49 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
quote:
Originally posted by NubiWan
With the current leadership, the smell of "scum" seems closer to home, each day... :(
Do you really think that things were much better under the "Dynamic Duo" --- Messrs. Clinton and Clinton?
(A serious question, N.W.)
Actually, yes. We had a strong economy, a balanced budget and a surplus. That's all gone, now.
And, as Clinton was paying attention, there is a good chance that the Twin Towers might still be standing.
Further, I doubt that we'd be wasting lives, limbs, blood and material in Iraq for the profit of the friends of a liar, coward, thief and traitor.
As to the possibility of the Twin Towers still standing, f., I non-concur. I don't think that anyone, much less the Dynamic Duet, Messrs. Clinton, "was paying attention".
IMO, we were in the middle of a war that no one seemed to have noticed, much less paid attention to. In fact, IMO we --- everyone, from top to bottom --- have yet to truly decipher that war; probably to our eventual very deep sorrow, even ghastly horror.
That's the way I see it, anyway.
(My first hint that we were involved in real war, a truly serious war, BTW, was as I watched the smoke billowing out of the upper floors of the two towers: There was no crystal ball sitting next to my computer either; I was seemingly just as mentally inert as everyone else.)
As to having a "strong economy", that's pretty much cyclical and the President's influence over the economy is next-to-nil. (Lots of political hot air seems to help --- slightly.) The "balanced budget" is, as most people agree, a matter of smoke and mirrors from the budgeteers and acountants. (My opinion, anyway.)
On Iraq: Well, maybe. But I doubt it. Clinton, after all, is a lawyer, not a rough-tough, jet fighter-pilot, cowboy-oilman. I suspect that the spectre of WMD here, there, everywhere throughout Iraq (as dished up by British Intelligence) would have scared him even more that Bush ii. IMO, Clinton was even more of an Anglophile than is Bush ii and, IIRC, the British were the ultimate source of the WMD scare. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
|
|
|
furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 12:30:23 [Permalink]
|
Computer said:
quote:
[Bush is a] rough-tough, jet fighter-pilot, cowboy-oilman.
Oh, please!
Bush avoided Vietnam by flying in the National Guard.
Bush is an 'oil-man' in that his family is rich (and becoming richer) from the oil.
Riding a horse does not make you a cowboy. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 13:05:25 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by furshur
Computer said:
quote:
[Bush is a] rough-tough, jet fighter-pilot, cowboy-oilman.
Oh, please!
Bush avoided Vietnam by flying in the National Guard.
Bush is an 'oil-man' in that his family is rich (and becoming richer) from the oil.
Riding a horse does not make you a cowboy.
Alas, image is everything nowadays.
Don't get me wrong. I volunteered to switch my first assignment from Korea to a unit getting ready to deploy to Viet Nam; spent 2 years+ assigned to RVN, voluntarily extending my tour 3 different times. After Viet Nam, was in the Reserve, although never in the National Guard. I'm a hard-liner on all of this military stuff --- but most of all I'm a hard-liner on the U.S. Constitution (and its foundation, the Declaration of Indeptence.)
(Sorry: my fingers are sputtering and stuttering and scattering "finger salvia" everywhere. If I am sounding slightly incoherent, that's why.)
OK Oil. OK, cowboy. But again: Alas! Image is everything.
Now Clinton, on the other hand: There IS a slimy, cowardly, snivelling, draft-dodging bastardly son-of-a-B.  Deny that if you can. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 13:48:44 [Permalink]
|
Rough, tough fighter pilot? Pu-leease! This despicable, little pussy couldn't even finish a gravy hitch in the Champange Squadron in the TX Guard. He quit flying after only a couple of years, due to some bullshit about flight physicals (and possible cocaine abuse, it is said). He is worthy of no more than contempt. Read his history, if it's still available. Everything he's ever touched has turned to shit, including this 'War on Terriorism'.
So Clinton's a slimeball? Thus far, after a seventy million investigation, he's only been found guilty of getting an extra-curricular blowjob on compamy time. As to his protesting 'Nam (and he ultimatly signed up for the draft), that's his and your right and my right. He never wiped his ass on the Constitution as Bush is doing. And for the rest of the bullshit surrounding him; documantetion, please.
Bush makes me nostalgic for fucking Nixon!
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 15:05:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Bush makes me nostalgic for fucking Nixon!
Me too.
As to the rest: You'll get no arguments from me. (Didn't know that C later registered for the draft. Are you sure that it was Bill and not Hillery?)
Considering the hours that a Pres. has to keep, a "blowjob on company time" doesn't --- and never did --- bother me at all. In fact I've always found it a little too convienent that what's-her-name (---she with the ready mouth---) didn't get her dress cleaned and how she, a good Democrat, felt the need to give all the details to a near-foaming at the mouth "right winger".
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Too bad I wasn't posting as a skeptic when all that happenned. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2004 : 17:53:15 [Permalink]
|
Yeh. When his student deferment ran out, he, wisely I think, signed up. He lucked out with a high number.
What is everybody's problem with Hillary? I've never been able to figure that out.
Yeh again, the what's-'er-name (I can't spell it, either) deal was a crock from the beginning, and Clinton made a huge mistake, apart from the one of getting with the chippy in the first place. What he should have done is said that, yeh, he did it and it was good, too. That would have brought forth shrieks of outrage and apoplexy from the far right, hysterical laughter at the far right from the far left, and an iron skillet up 'side ol' Willy's head from Hillary. But no impeachment from Congress (they didn't bust him for the BJ, just lying about it). :roll eyes: O'course, the nothing-finding investigation would have continued, but we'd have at least been spared some of the silly retoric that spewed from various talking heads.
Why is it that the term 'talking head' makes me think of guillotines?
Late edited to clean up some of the usual. |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
| Edited by - filthy on 05/17/2004 19:56:11 |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
