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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2001 : 15:23:34
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hi every body, I am glad I found this site.
You might be able to help me answering an old question.
I realized that creationism is quite "popular" in the states and that evolution (which is recognized as "true "by science) is not taught in all schools.
I was wondering what in american society can explain that. As a european I always find obvious that what is related with belief as nothing to do with science and education.
My best explaination for this is that at one point of its history almost all european country had to separate religion from government(most of the time violently). Which made a clear separation between what is the field of faith and the rest.
My question is probably more general than only creationism and I might have posted it elsewhere.
Seb
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2001 : 17:31:27 [Permalink]
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Welcome seb,
Creationism is not particularly popular in the US. There is however, a small but vocal minority of anti-science people who believe that they are our moral watch-dogs and aer going to teach us the "truth" whether or not we want it. I thing the American revolutionary Samuel Adams said it best:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds."
Greg.
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 20:33:05 [Permalink]
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a few years back fundamentalists christians made a major push to get elected to school boards in response to the growing threat of "secular humanism" in schools. a big part of their agenda was getting rid of curriculum elements that disagreed with biblical teaching. also pushed for allowing religious activites at school, "student led" prayers etc.
comrade billyboy |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 20:36:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
hi every body, I am glad I found this site.
You might be able to help me answering an old question.
I realized that creationism is quite "popular" in the states and that evolution (which is recognized as "true "by science) is not taught in all schools.
I was wondering what in american society can explain that. As a european I always find obvious that what is related with belief as nothing to do with science and education.
My best explaination for this is that at one point of its history almost all european country had to separate religion from government(most of the time violently). Which made a clear separation between what is the field of faith and the rest.
My question is probably more general than only creationism and I might have posted it elsewhere.
Seb
Seb,
Creationism isn't a popular as you might think. A well organized minority (calling themselves the Moral Majority and other nome de plumes) has been very vocal. Around here, the most vocal and outrageous groups and individuals get air time on news programs. To see the real parade of freaks that can exist albeit extremely rare, look at the American program "The Jerry Springer Show".
Evolution is a scientific fact and is taught as such in schools. Whether all of the population chooses to believe it is another story.
In America, the school boards are elected officials. They are, therefore, sensitive to the agitation of minority groups. The number of books banned in American schools over the years shows that. Even one person, threatening a law suit can affect how a school is run.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 21:59:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Even one person, threatening a law suit can affect how a school is run.
Please don't give them any ideas...
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet. |
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gdaye
New Member
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 22:17:31 [Permalink]
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here's the results of a poll taken in June, 1999: The Gallup Poll conducted last year also found 68 percent of Americans favored teaching both creationism and evolution in the public schools. By a margin of 55 percent to 40 percent, they opposed replacing evolution with creationism.
Those results were based on telephone interviews with a randomly selected national sample of 1,016 adults, 18 years and older, conducted June 25-27, 1999. The margin of error was plus or minus 3 percentage points.
For a discussion of the four main types of creationists in the US, see http://homepages.ius.edu/Horizon/2000/darwin.html
Nolle Illegitimus Carborundum |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 23:06:21 [Permalink]
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All this crap about creationism running amok in our school systems (somebody put the fools out of our misery please....) PAX TV decides to bring on their Mysteries of the Unexplained show - wait on this - no other than Mr Duane Gish! They were selling the same old tired arguments....haven't been able to prove evil-ution in the past 150 years, missing fossil records....blah, blah, blah.
Unfortunately Seb, the American populace seems to becoming more credulous as time passes. Why this is so I don't know - other than a lack of critical thinking, reasoning and logic in the school environment. It's much easier to buy hook, line and sinker than to think for yourself. (TV media slam)
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2001 : 23:33:22 [Permalink]
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This country is becoming more and more science illiterate. I'm not saying we should all be walking around in lab coats, I just think people should be able to understand basic concepts. More and more schools consider anything beyond basic math and science to be an elective.
In our "sound-bite" society, people want fast easy answers. Understanding the basics of logic, science, and critical thinking is not fast or easy. "God makes it work" is.
Lisa
Chaos...Confusion...Destruction...My Work Here Is Done |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2001 : 00:29:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
here's the results of a poll taken in June, 1999: The Gallup Poll conducted last year also found 68 percent of Americans favored teaching both creationism and evolution in the public schools. By a margin of 55 percent to 40 percent, they opposed replacing evolution with creationism.
Thanks much gdaye for the info. I had thought that creationism was far more popular here in the states than in Europe; do we have any similar numbers for them? I'd bet a 12-pack of any decent brew that they are far less credulous than Americans on this particular matter.
That said, I've a few speculations on the topic question. I posit that creationism is popular in America because of the somewhat pervasive religious culture of modern Protestantism. Active and staunch practitioners of Protestantism have grown less and less common in Europe for generations, while in the U.S. the movement saw a great resurgence with advent of the fundamentalist and evangelical movements of the 20th century, which continue building strength to this day. These movements follow Luther in the Sola Scriptura approach to church doctrine, and moreover they reject the so-called "higher" forms critical Bible scholarship which grew out of the German theological movements of the 19th century. Due to the necessity of deriving meaningful doctrine from the text alone without the authority of church tradition or the tools of Biblical criticism, they have adopted an extreme form of biblical literalism, which has lead them to read the Genesis account as a straightforward factual depiction of events, rather than as a parable of creation, which is the more traditional Jewish view.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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seb
New Member
France
40 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2001 : 12:44:36 [Permalink]
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thanks all for this answers which help clarifying the situation.
I just have some comments on the following
quote:
I'd bet a 12-pack of any decent brew that they are far less credulous than Americans on this particular matter.
May be on this but we have our own "demons". I might start giving some exemple of my favorit craps served in France.
quote:
Creationism is not particularly popular in the US.
I did not know about the americans school boards organisation. I thought education programs were decided at the state level, therefore I concluded that if creationism could be present in school that means that it is quite popular.
quote:
To see the real parade of freaks that can exist albeit extremely rare, look at the American program "The Jerry Springer Show".
In France we do not directly import american talk show. Sometimes we take the same concepts but it is usually soften (is that english?). But I studied one year in sweden, there it is not worth it to dub everything, they just put subtitles and so import directly jenny jones, ricky lake, jay leno... So I kind of know what freaks can be up to 
Seb |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2001 : 13:02:29 [Permalink]
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There is an essay contrasting the differences in Church State seperation between the US and UK at http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/churchstate.html
Interestingly the UK have more seperation even though they have a government religion.
As for Jerry Springer. I've seen some of his shows on TV here. Very funny to watch.
Radioactive GM Crops.
Slightly above background.
Safe to eat.
But no activist would dare rip it out.
As they think it gives them cancer. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2001 : 20:16:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
thanks all for this answers which help clarifying the situation.
I just have some comments on the following
quote:
Creationism is not particularly popular in the US.
I did not know about the americans school boards organisation. I thought education programs were decided at the state level, therefore I concluded that if creationism could be present in school that means that it is quite popular.
The state school administrations do set a large portion of the state curricula for the public primary and secondary schools, but there are a couple of things working in the favor of motivated creationists. First, these boards tend to be
on the small side. Two or three state school boards who vote to equate creationism with evolution at a scientific level might seem like a trend, but you might expect to see such when there are 50 state school boards total. Second, elected school boards have little or no education requirement. It is apparently not necessary to thing critically if you can think politically. On the bright side, there have been, I think, three well-publicized pushes for creation science teaching at the state level, and I know at least two were either reversed or denied outright.
This signature does not exist. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2001 : 21:58:23 [Permalink]
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I think that creationism only seems popular because of the vocal minority. It was in a way refreshing to see what happened when Creationists got their way if only for a fleeting moment in Kansas. Citizens that were usually too busy to pay attention to what their kids were doing day or night couldn't help but take notice. It really gave me hope in Americans. Imagine if nothing had happened and then it was another state, then another etc.....Ugh!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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AARD
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2001 : 21:58:56 [Permalink]
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Great site folks. Now if you could just find some creationists who are willing to engage in intellectual debate with a genuine concern for contrary thought. I have one, he is mine, and I'm not giving him up!
Personal thanks to Slater. Your posts sent me off on a crusade to find that historic Jesus person. I have not found him either. While my research is far from complete, I'm beginning to wonder if the Christian's have ANY defense for their claims? Avoidance of the subject always seems to be the order of the day. In fact, to simply ask them to verify their 'facts", is to invite a visceral hated beyond belief, pun intended.
One thing I think many of you have missed in this equation (I'm new so correct me if I'm wrong, words you will never hear a creationist say) is that the Creationist movement is a purely political movement. That fact alone negates its numbers. Their leaders realize that they will never (lets hope) have a majority, which is why their attack is political. You only need to control enough politicians, a far easier task than controlling the masses. Even they realize that most Christian denominations have lined up against them in court, on the school boards, etc. If I am correct, it was also the basis for the church sponsored feudal system. Control the controllers!
I can see no other conclusion than they want to create a fundamentalist Christian state here. They want to turn us into Iran!
Edited by - AARD on 08/15/2001 22:01:46 |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 07:15:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that creationism only seems popular because of the vocal minority.
The poll results posted above beg to differ. Apparently most Americans are for teaching both "theories" of creation in schools, and the country is nearly evenly split on which one should be taught if only one was taught.
It seems that far more Americans want creation in schools than want Bush in office. If we were democratic about such matters...
God forbid. |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 08:20:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
The poll results posted above beg to differ. Apparently most Americans are for teaching both "theories" of creation in schools, and the country is nearly evenly split on which one should be taught if only one was taught.
There is a big difference between belief in a "theory" and the opinion that a "reasonable" possibility should be taught. IMHO, I believe that most Americans do not understand the difference between a theory and speculation. Therefore, "why not teach these ideas (creationism) too".
Greg.
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