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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2001 : 09:23:19 [Permalink]
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I have to wonder about those polls mentioned above. I think people easily flip out a "Sure i think creationism should be taught" to a pollster but when it actually comes to having creationism taught in school people do a rapid about face.
Am I the only one here that finds it odd that a majority is supposedly for creationism yet it's NOT taught in schools. Something's not right there.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 09:35:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Am I the only one here that finds it odd that a majority is supposedly for creationism yet it's NOT taught in schools. Something's not right there.
Don't you know?! The Liberal Socialist Atheist Feminists are in control, and it's only getting worse!!! They run our school systems, and want all our little boys to be conditioned to be like little girls, and want no competitive games to be played, and want Godless evolution indoctrinated into our children's little brains!!!
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 11:23:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have to wonder about those polls mentioned above. I think people easily flip out a "Sure i think creationism should be taught" to a pollster but when it actually comes to having creationism taught in school people do a rapid about face.
The same is true of polling vs. voting behavior. Many people say they want X (lower taxes, campaign reform, decriminalization, etc.) but they vote “for the lesser of two evils” instead.
quote:
Am I the only one here that finds it odd that a majority is supposedly for creationism yet it's NOT taught in schools. Something's not right there.
Clearly not, since I brought it up in my last post. I imagine the answer to this quandary is that curricula are controlled primarily by educators, rather than the voice of the people. Good thing too.
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 13:05:12 [Permalink]
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Slater's Theory on the Origin of Creationism
I think that we make a mistake if we consider Creationism on a religious bases. It has little or nothing to do with religion.
It gets its start as part of a particularly malignant Sociopathic Movement that started in Switzerland and then quickly spread to the Anglo/Scottish. Then under Oliver Cromwell and his "Round head" thugs spread over all of England and into Ireland. Cromwell murdered almost half the population of Ireland leaving most of Ulster empty. He then repopulated it with his own people. After over 300 years these so called "Protestants" still hate the local population and still refuse to call themselves Irish. In England he ousted the king, banned Christmas, and outlawed singing, dancing and drinking.
This shows that this sociopathy has nothing to do with Christianity. (The very first miracle that Jesus preformed was standing everyone for drinks at a party.) It fostered the conviction that not only was the world a terrible place but people were terrible by their very nature.
It dressed itself in the trappings of religion because religion was "beyond question." It assumed the authority of god. The fact that it twisted standard European religious practices out of all recognition meant only that everyone else was not a "true Christian." (Note: the Roman Catholics of Northern Ireland and their social and political situation even today).
Eventually the English people could stand this dictatorial oppression no longer and tossed the Roundheads out. They went to "pre-pot" Holland but even the Dutch were not sour enough to put up with this bullshit disguised as sanctimoniousness. They in turn kicked the Roundheads out. Sent them to a wild land populated by bloodthirsty savages--a better fate than they deserved.
Once they got to the savage land they continued with their bizarre misanthropic behavior, still disguising it as religion. But in reality it was only hatred and the lust for power over their fellow men. They stopped calling themselves Roundheads and took up the self-congratulatory title of "Pilgrims."
Creationism has nothing to do with religion, that's only a ruse.
Creationism has nothing to do with science. That is the reason you can explain again and again to the same Creationist that "it only works in a CLOSED SYSTEM" and they never hear you. And why none of them even know what evolution is, no matter how many times you explain it to them.
Evolution, as a topic, seems to have been arbitrarily picked by them. They could have chosen almost anything. Science, in their view, must be fought because it demands the free exchange of ideas. They don't want the free exchange of thought, they want to control everything you do and think. Because you are no damn good, you are a sinner. If any man says he is not a sinner HE LIES!!
And they,…why they admit that they are not perfect. THEY ARE SAVED AND YOU ARE NOT YOU SINNER. Their version of "morals" must be made the law to govern YOUR life.
This is a political movement, make no mistake about it. The descendants of Cromwell want to control you (does the word PROHIBITION means anything to anyone?)
The Europeans were intolerant of this oppressive lot and kicked their asses out and sent them here.
We are stuck with them and with our belief (that they twist and pray off of) that intolerance is universally wrong.
Perhaps we could make an exception in their case….
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 15:46:46 [Permalink]
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Slater,
Excellent historical analysis. And in so few words too. Note too that it's not just Creationism, it's the fundamentalists approach to enforcing their convoluted morality on all of us.
A couple of open questions though. How has this political movement lasted so long within a system that supposedly elevates individual rights? It is obvious that there are non-western fundamentalists in the world (Taliban etc.). What is it about human nature that causes us to allow and actually participate in such movements?
One word as to prohibition. The "Temperance" movement existed for some time in the US prior to the 20th century. It was essentially a joke to the general population. That is, until various industrialists (Henry Ford et al), pushed the issue. Lo and behold, an AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION (!!!) was ratified and a law passed that the majority of Americans did not want. Not only was it unwanted, but a significant number of normally law-abiding Americans knowingly broke the law repeatedly until it was repealed. So much for moral watch-dogs.
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 16:36:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Lo and behold, an AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION (!!!) was ratified and a law passed that the majority of Americans did not want.
I have been wondering why it took a Constitutional amendment to outlaw alcohol, but they outlawed hemp and canabis without so much as a by-your-leave...
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 16:59:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have been wondering why it took a Constitutional amendment to outlaw alcohol, but they outlawed hemp and canabis without so much as a by-your-leave...
Cannabis was outlawed at the same time however it was never made legal again. The current laws come from 1972 and are the epitome of political laziness. Congress passed an all inclusive law that allowed the Executive branch power to place any drug on a 'schedule'. That is, someone invents a psychoactive drug that the government wants to make illegal. Under normal circumstances, Congress would have to debate and pass a law regulating such a compound each time. That is not the case. The DEA places the drug on a schedule based on it's properties and uses. Currently, Marajuana is a schedule 1 drug which means that it is 'dangerous and addictive and without any medical use'. Go figure.
Greg.
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2001 : 19:32:40 [Permalink]
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A true story.
I know a lady in South Carolina who used to be a teacher in a rural school. She likes dinosaurs as did most of her students. So she put up dinosaur posters and stamped papers that she liked with dinosaur stamps. Sounds pretty innocent, right?
Well, one day a little old comes to the principal complaining that this teacher has all these "demonic creatures" posted in her class room. This isn't a committee mind you, just one irate (and apparently somewhat confused) little old lady. The principal, in an act of unbelievable spinelessness, informs the teacher that she has to take all the dinosaur posters down.
This is, of course, one of the reasons she is no longer a teacher. 
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 02:45:01 [Permalink]
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I dunno, Slater, I don't get your distinction between the Sons of Cromwell and the born-again Christian fervor that I see propelling some proponents of creationism. I mean, it seems to me that one drive within the USian religious complex is to deny the challenges science poses to belief by attacking science in general and evolution theory in particular. The only reason evolution is repugnant to Christians is because it denies mankind special-creation status: God made the beasts of the field, and *then* He made man, in His own image.
For what it's worth (not much) I think the visibility of USian creationism is a consequence of the agressively evangelical Christian movement, something I think is not so prevalent in the rest of the world.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 10:26:20 [Permalink]
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I dunno, Slater, I don't get your distinction between the Sons of Cromwell and the born-again Christian fervor that I see propelling some proponents of creationism.
I didn't mean to imply that they were the only group. The Europeans were intolerant of any number of these socio/religious cults and forced them to leave. To leave Europe in those days meant to come here to Europe II, New England or New France.
The Cromwellians (Pilgrims) are the core group that the others formed around.
This is not to imply that the other Europeans who came over were not still dead set against these groups. However the state / religion mix in England was a nightmare. The King was the head of the Church. They had lived through the Civil (Religious) war horror. The backlash against the Roman Catholic Church was so severe that many of the Catholics had moved here. Most of the people on the frontiers (Western New York, Kentucky) were Irish Catholic. And the "founding fathers" were heavily into the new Humanism movement that was sweeping European intellectual circles as "The Age of Enlightenment."
Faced with a situation like this there was nothing to do, when starting this country from scratch, but to establish a complete separation of church and state. Any other action would have been suicidal for the new government.
That's how the Cromwellians suddenly found themselves protected and no longer publicly persecuted. (What was good for the host was also good for the parasite)
I mean, it seems to me that one drive within the USian religious complex is to deny the challenges science poses to belief by attacking science in
general and evolution theory in particular. The only reason evolution is repugnant to Christians is because it denies mankind special-creation status: God made the beasts of the field, and *then* He made man, in His own image.
I don't agree, because I don't believe that the Neo-Cromwellian Creationists are actually a religious group.
I know that sounds ridiculous on the face of it, but hear me out. What this group is about is control. The religion is only taken on as a cloak of authority, they could really care less about it. That's why they twist it every which way until you wouldn't recognize it when seen next to the other Christian religions.
Look at the Christians on this site.
The Catholics are never heard from. They consider their religion to be their own personal business and not a matter for debate in a public forum. They have a great deal of self respect.
The "main stream" Protestants who join in say things like they greatly admire the values and philosophies behind Christianity. They think non-Theists are mistaken to be so, but respect their right to self determination. When the history of Christianity is discussed they find it interesting and say that they are going to look into it themselves. Meaning that they may not like the interpretation of the facts as presented but will do their own research and make up their own minds.
Both groups show a combination of respect and intellectual freedom.
But when you get to the so called "Creationists" you have a completely different story. Religion is no longer a personal matter. Non-Theists are not "mistaken" they are wrong.
We have two threads here that they have started to show that non-Theists can have no morality. "Morality" means something completely different to them than to the rest of us. To them morality is a set of UNCHANGING LAWS that you MUST obey. They are not different in different times and cultures. They are not to insure the security and harmony of the group. They are THE LAW which all must obey.
In other words, you must be controlled by what we say.
The problem that they have with evolution is for the same reason. Control. If you control people you have power over them. If you can fool yourself, and others, into thinking that this power comes from almighty god, and not just you, all the better.
"If we teach our children that they are descended from monkeys then they will behave like a bunch of monkeys!"--Hank Hanagraff
Hank hit it on the head. There is no scientific problem with evolution. The Creationists don't give a rat's arse about science (i.e.: facts) That's why they make the same pseudo-scientific claims again and again not matter how many times they are corrected.
Obviously they don't think that scientists are running around like a bunch of chimps. They can see that they aren't. The problem is that scientists and freethinkers are not controlled (in their jargon: moral) They are thinking for themselves, and that will never do. (If they are rejecting the authority of god then they are rejecting the hold the Creationists claim to have over them. This freedom will just not do. Where are the stocks in the town square when you need them?)
"All men are sinners (bad) If one says he is not HE LIES."
"Not my will be done, but THY WILL(as stated by the Creationists) BE DONE."
"What would Jesus do?" translation: What do Creationists tell me to do.
Read the above as --you are bad and we are good. We will tell you what to think and do because it is wrong for you to think for yourself. Swinehund.
For what it's worth (not much) I think the visibility of USian creationism is a consequence of the agressively evangelical Christian movement, something I think is not so prevalent in the rest of the world.
Notice, when you try to use even the most simple, straight forward, logic with Creationists, the reaction you always get.
You will be told that you do not have "universal knowledge" and therefore cannot make your claims. The implication, of course, is that they do have universal knowledge (authority) and so can make their claims(control you.)
If you press the matter you will be told that you cannot comprehend the infinite with your finite mind, while they have no problem doing so.
My mind isn't so finite that I can't tell Fascism dressed in Good Shepherd's clothing when I see it.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 12:41:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I mean, it seems to me that one drive within the USian religious complex is to deny the challenges science poses to belief by attacking science in general and evolution theory in particular. The only reason evolution is repugnant to Christians is because it denies mankind special-creation status: God made the beasts of the field, and *then* He made man, in His own image.
I don't agree, because I don't believe that the Neo-Cromwellian Creationists are actually a religious group. I know that sounds ridiculous on the face of it, but hear me out. What this group is about is control. The religion is only taken on as a cloak of authority, they could really care less about it. That's why they twist it every which way until you wouldn't recognize it when seen next to the other Christian religions.
I tend to agree with this, but I'm curious as to whether or not this is a conscious thing. Do you think the "Neo-Cromwellian Creationists" are aware that they are about control, rather than religion? Do they see it as control, and then justify it with their belief? Or are they oblivious to their own subconscious motives, and think they are just doing "God's work"?
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 16:55:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
... The only reason evolution is repugnant to Christians ...
Sorry Dog_Ed, but evolution is not repugnant to all Christians...only the fundamentalists.
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 16:56:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
The problem that they have with evolution is for the same reason. Control. If you control people you have power over them. If you can fool yourself, and others, into thinking that this power comes from almighty god, and not just you, all the better.
I have heard this same argument with respect to the abortion/choice issue. Those who want to limit a woman's right to an abortion are in fact trying to control women's sexuality. Unwanted pregnancy is a just punishment for promiscuity in their eyes. Just a guess but I think that the vast majority of Creationists are likely also against women's choice on abortion.
Greg.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 17:28:36 [Permalink]
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Hmmmmmm....very interesting points greg and slater. I'm not 100% sure on it all but it's definately worth considering.
It is quite obvious that the fundamentalists want to:
1. Bring government and religion together just like in the good old days.
2. Take away women's right to abortion and let's not forget the birth control while we're at it. These two together seriously undermine women's rights.
3. Limit the individual's access to certain books, movies, TV shows, websites and information that generally does not conform with their brand of morality.
4. Control what is taught in schools so that children are taught to think as they think.
Did I leave anything out?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 17:41:11 [Permalink]
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Do you think the "Neo-Cromwellian Creationists" are aware that they are about control…Or are they oblivious to their own subconscious motives, and think they are just doing "God's work"?
We need a symbol to post to designate "speculation."
I don't know, nor would I know how to find out.
But I am reminded of the Nazis at the end of the Second World War. So many of them, when arrested for their crimes, said "But I was only following orders, " that it became a great joke in Britain and the US. But those Nazis were truly shocked that they had done anything wrong. Because not only were they controlling other people, but also they themselves were being controlled. They were blissfully doing the will of the Führer and felt no personal responsibility at all.
I'm sure that Creationist slogans about how they are saved, how Jesus paid the price of their sins, the will of god, etc. are going through your head right now.
The Creationists know that they differ from other Christians. If a Christian has committed an atrocity then they say that they were not true Christians. If a minister is concerned about peoples physical and mental well being, if they want to incorporate inclusiveness into Christianity they are labeled "liberal theologians" and dismissed.
I don't think that they are concerned about differing from all the other Christians, in fact it might just please them. It makes them better than other Christians. More in line with what göd demands, and they are looking forward to reaping the rewards of total obedience.
I suppose an equally strong case might be made for German Fascism having been a type of "religion" as can be made for this religion actually being fascism.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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