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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 05/29/2004 : 08:06:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Founded by none other than Pat Robertson, who has expressed his hatred of feminism,
I don't know the man but I doubt he hates feminism. He just has a different view of women just like thousands of women across this country. The largest womens organisation in dues paying members in the U.S. is Concerned Women for America http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp these women do not agree with what is typically regarded as feminism in the U.S just like alot of Christian men.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 08:17:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Creation88 wrote:quote:
What has the church ever done to YOU?
Which church? I can name examples of things which are wasting my money which can be traced back to the efforts of one church or another, but I predict you'd say that those responsible weren't really Christians, or were representatives of some minority Christian cult, and thus not part of your church. Examples like anti-gay-marriage initiatives, anti-evolution initiatives, pro-"Under God belongs in the Pledge" initiatives, priest sexual-abuse scandals. These all take time away from much more important issues facing the government, and that wasted time translates directly into my tax dollars down the drain.
That is what religion in general does to me - it's not confined to any particular church, really.
This is how the U.S. works. There are plenty of initiatives, programs and scandals that waste my money also. These affect everybody even Christians. This country allows groups (weather you agree with them or not) to voice their opinion on issues they think are important. I don't think practicing freedom is a waste of time or money. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 08:32:25 [Permalink]
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C88, since you asked, I'll tell you what Christianity did to me, personally. Apologies to you regulars who already know this boring story. 
My great grandmother was Native American. She was taken from her family at age 5 and put in a "Christian" re-education school. The details of what happened to her there died with her, but many students in these schools were beaten for speaking their native languages (check your history books if you don't believe me). According to my mother, my great-grandma was treated horribly there.
Great Grandma was about the coldest woman you could meet. I think it happened, at least in part, because she was raised with the idea that her identity and culture were fundamentally wrong. Children's self-esteem is damaged by receiving those kinds of messages, either from parents or from society.
The legacy of her pain, loss, anger, etc. got handed down, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so. It affected the family for generations and hopefully, if I have children, I won't hand any of it down to them.
C88, can you accept the idea that others have had experiences with Christianity that are equally visceral, personal, and valid--even when their experiences are very different from yours? |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 16:05:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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Falwell's (or Graham's) church didn't used to let BLACK people in.
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These were racist christians.
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And then there is the last 2000 years of history to consider....
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They were not following Jesus teachings.
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You have a very difficult time making a case for the kindness and compassion of christians.
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If your going to proclaim that your a christian, then you have to accept the extremely well documented FACT that christians have done terrible things for thousands of years. Just because YOU wouldn't do them, and just because YOU don;t think they acted in accordance with "jesus' teachings" does not change history. Typically the motivation for the wrongs commited by christians has been based on differences in belief. How many women were burned for the accusation of witchcraft, how many people died in the inquisition, how many people were killed or converted-by-the-sword in the crusades to reclaim the holy land?
I love it when you fundies dismiss two thousand years of history with one sentence.... "They weren't following the teachings of Jesus." So? They were christians, and official ones at that!
And the racist christian? roflmao.... you dismiss blatant acts of racism with that sentence? So.. It's OK that they did wrong... they were just some racist christians?
quote:
quote:
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Pat Robertson on the gay rights day at Disney: God will probably send a hurricaine or meteor to wipe them from the face of the earth.
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Because we oppose gay marriage does not mean we hate gay people. It is just a different view than you have.
Huh? Pat is praying for a natural disaster to kill all the fags at disney.... and you can say that he doesn't hate gay people? C'mon man!
quote:
quote:
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Robertson and Falwell on 9/11 blame feminism, liberals, and homosexuals for the terrorist attacks.
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Have not heard of this.
Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell... LIVE on the 700 Club blame the terrorist attacks of 9/11 on gays, feminism, liberals, and other sinners who "made god lift his shield of protection" from the US. These guys are the face of christianity in the US today, and I submit to you that they are hatefilled bigots who's goal is the supremacy of fundamentalist religion. They raise millions of dollars for alledged christian political candidates, they organize IRS 527's for the purpose of assisting politicians they favor, they lobby for the adoption of laws based on fundamentalist bigotry and irrational thinking, they campaign for the instatement of activist judges, and they publicly PREACH HATE!
(an organization using IRS 527 rules can accept ANY ammount of money to use to advocate a single issue. I.E. abortion, guns, ect... these groups are used to do things like push-poll... which is why G.W. Bush won the South Carolina primary in 2000.... his religious right supporters assassinated McCain's character with the push-poll)
(an example of a push-poll: Call white middle/lower class voters in South Carolina and ask them poll questions. ex- Would you vote for a presidential candidate who has a black baby? Would you vote for a presidential candidate whos wife is a drug addict? McCain has an adopted baby who is not white, and his wife was injured and became dependent on pain killers... which she sought treatment for. They use this type of poll to encite people who refuse to think critically, and it works quite will.)
You'll probably call them concerned citizens.....
Now... C88, have you any response to my answer to your question? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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byhisgrace88
Formerly "creation88"
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 16:28:11 [Permalink]
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Which church? I can name examples of things which are wasting my money which can be traced back to the efforts of one church or another, but I predict you'd say that those responsible weren't really Christians, or were representatives of some minority Christian cult, and thus not part of your church. Examples like anti-gay-marriage initiatives, anti-evolution initiatives, pro-"Under God belongs in the Pledge" initiatives, priest sexual-abuse scandals. These all take time away from much more important issues facing the government, and that wasted time translates directly into my tax dollars down the drain.
quote:
Your just gonna have to get over this one Dave. Everybody's paing taxes for things they don't support, or don't use. I am homeschooled yet my parents still are paying huge taxes for the new school that's opening. So it's nothing new to have this problem.
quote:
C88, since you asked, I'll tell you what Christianity did to me, personally. Apologies to you regulars who already know this boring story.
My great grandmother was Native American. She was taken from her family at age 5 and put in a "Christian" re-education school. The details of what happened to her there died with her, but many students in these schools were beaten for speaking their native languages (check your history books if you don't believe me). According to my mother, my great-grandma was treated horribly there.
Great Grandma was about the coldest woman you could meet. I think it happened, at least in part, because she was raised with the idea that her identity and culture were fundamentally wrong. Children's self-esteem is damaged by receiving those kinds of messages, either from parents or from society.
The legacy of her pain, loss, anger, etc. got handed down, sometimes subtly and sometimes not so. It affected the family for generations and hopefully, if I have children, I won't hand any of it down to them.
C88, can you accept the idea that others have had experiences with Christianity that are equally visceral, personal, and valid--even when their experiences are very different from yours?
First of all were going back into history again. Second of all, this does not have anything to do with YOU! If your great-grandmother had some bitterness against "christians" then it would be more understandable.
And if were going to go back in history, as everyone keeps insisting on doing, then let's talk about the hundreds of thousands of Christians slaughtered for there faith. And not just the very few "Christians" who were not even Christians, who have killed people.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not "crying persecution" as Rease has said multiple times. Because these things don't effect me directly either. But there definetly worth noting. Also worth noting are the thousands of charity's started by churches across the world.
If someone came into this thread and did'nt know what a Christian was, they would come out thinking that they were some kind of demonic serial killers. And you all know this is not true.
You know that this does not represent the typical Christian, yet you use it anyway. If were going to talk about the extremists. I could take any of the MANY MANY MANY thousand more murders, and rapes, and thefts, and say look what non-Christian religion brings. (i say "religion" because in reality, thats what it is) And it would be just as valid. |
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desire, not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.-- C.S. Lewis |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 17:57:43 [Permalink]
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Creation88, don't you think the parameters of your 'challenge' are a little unfair? You're upset that the secular crowd here has some fun at the expense Christianity. However, when you ask how it could be that we secularists could be so upset with the religion, you do not accept any answer that paints Christianity in a poor light. Thus, the hundreds of years of persecution in Europe by the leaders of Christianity against non-Christians don't count. Harsh treatment and racist attitudes against New World cultures by Christians don't count. Racist attidutes and a sexist patriarchal outlook held by modern Christians don't count. Apparently, the only thing you'll let us be upset about are the positive aspects of Christianity!
So the real question isn't what has Christianity done to us secularists, but rather this: do you care what it is us secularists have against Christianity? If so, you'll listen and understand (and not dismiss our complaints as invalid because it's "history" or some such). And if not, then get in line with the rest of Christiandom-- tomorrow's Sunday and chruch starts early! |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 18:34:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by creation88
Has a Christian ever done anything to you??? NO....
Actually - YES !
But those are different stories. Some I will not share, and some you'll have to ask others. I sure if you ask for specific stories of christian people who have wronged others, you will be obliged.
quote:
<snipped a lot of ranting>
If every view is as good as the next, then it's no wonder people are flocking to the easiest religion possible. It does'nt matter which one you choose, as long as you acceept everyone and there view.
oh boy... You got some really weird views about non-christians.
quote:
... and that were only out for money.
We have covered the money aspect of christianity in sever other threads, and I think the consensus among non-theists is that money is not the average christian's motivation. Some "christians" are in it (religion) for the money, however, they are clever enough to conceal themselves as faithful. Some are in it for the power.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 19:06:33 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote:quote:
This is how the U.S. works. There are plenty of initiatives, programs and scandals that waste my money also. These affect everybody even Christians. This country allows groups (weather you agree with them or not) to voice their opinion on issues they think are important. I don't think practicing freedom is a waste of time or money.
And creation88 wrote:quote:
Your just gonna have to get over this one Dave. Everybody's paing taxes for things they don't support, or don't use. I am homeschooled yet my parents still are paying huge taxes for the new school that's opening. So it's nothing new to have this problem.
Apparently you guys don't understand that my tax dollars aren't supposed to be supporting religiously-based initiatives within the U.S. Federal or state governments. And it doesn't matter whether I agree with these things or not, this money should not be being spent. I don't use Medicare or welfare, but these are better targets for public money than all the religion-related things sucking it away right now. Hell, gay marriage will increase revenues by governments.
Basically, it seems that you guys are asserting a straw man: yes, there would still be plenty of government waste if religion just didn't exist at all, and it is not my intention to argue that religion is the only waste of funds. Creation88, you asked for an example of Christianity harming non-Christians. I gave you one, and your only response was to tell me to walk it off, implicitly agreeing that a harm is being committed. Thank you.quote:
And if were going to go back in history, as everyone keeps insisting on doing...
No, I gave you a current harm being committed.quote:
...then let's talk about the hundreds of thousands of Christians slaughtered for there faith.
Yes, and we'll also talk about Hitler, the Crusades and the Inquisitions. Not to mention Ireland and the Salem Witch Trials.quote:
And not just the very few "Christians" who were not even Christians, who have killed people.
These and preceeding arguments that some people (self-avowed Christians in the public eye) weren't "really" Christians is just the "No True Christian" fallacy. I knew this would come up. It's the obvious way to deflect responsibility with a nebulous and badly-defined word like 'Christian'.
After all, one doesn't follow Christ with one's actions, one only needs faith to be a Christian. And since everyone is a sinner, it's impossible to tell who has faith in Jesus by whether or not they sin. Robb's deflection that some "call themselves christians but do not show th[e] Love that Jesus taught" is simply irrelevant, because it's impossible to judge a Christian based upon what they show the world, and only God should do the judging, anyway.quote:
Also worth noting are the thousands of charity's started by churches across the world.
No, it's not worth noting. The question is whether or not Christianity is harming people. No matter how much good Christians also do, they are harming non-Christians. Even a single stepped-on toe counts as harm, if done in Jesus' name.quote:
If someone came into this thread and did'nt know what a Christian was, they would come out thinking that they were some kind of demonic serial killers. And you all know this is not true.
It's also irrelevant. If you want to start a thread about the good that Christians do, be my guest. This thread isn't titled "What are Christians like? A fair view," and it's not about comparing Christianity to non-Christianity. This thread isn't even about whether or not Christianity hurts non-Christians. This thread is supposed to be about signs outside churches which appear strange and/or humorous to those who see them. More importantly, note that I never stated the signs I saw were outside Christian churches, and Chaloobi never said that his "You give these folks too much credit" comment applied to Christians, either.
You, instead, just assumed that such was so, and then decided to play the persecuted Christian card all over again, ruining the sign thread for good (unless I delete all this drama).quote:
You know that this does not represent the typical Christian, yet you use it anyway. If were going to talk about the extremists. I could take any of the MANY MANY MANY thousand more murders, and rapes, and thefts, and say look what non-Christian religion brings. (i say "religion" because in reality, thats what it is) And it would be just as valid.
Actually, no, it wouldn't be. There are many more Christians locked up in jail for murder, rape and theft than there are atheists. The Federal Bureau of Prisons stated that in 1997, only 0.209% of prisoners were atheists, with seven times as many were Pentacostal, 8.5 times as many belonged to the Church of Christ, and a whopping 35% were Protestants. Catholics led the results with over 39% of the prison population.
So, by your logic: look at what the Christian religion brings. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 20:00:17 [Permalink]
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C88, my great grandmother never mentioned anything to me about Christians or Christianity. To label her 'bitter' is a huge leap and an unkind and unfair one as well.
It DID affect me, and I explained to you why. Her culture, language, stability, and childhood were stripped from her. If you don't believe that pain, loneliness, anger, and dysfunction are transferred down through the generations, then crack open any Psyche 101 book. It affects me tremendously to this day. It's called internalized racism and shame.
That an experience occurs out of the realm of YOUR experience does not invalidate it. You won't ever understand what Native Americans went through. You won't ever understand the sense of shame and loss and emptiness many of them felt at the loss of their way of life.
Unfortunately, Christianity teaches The Way. As in "we're right and you're wrong, and if you don't accept Jesus, yer goin' ta hell." Do you see how invalidating that is to millions of non-Christians? |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2004 : 23:37:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
You, instead, just assumed that such was so, and then decided to play the persecuted Christian card all over again, ruining the sign thread for good (unless I delete all this drama).
Yeah... this thread has been officially hijacked!
But Dave.... you HAD to know that anything that could be remotely interpreted as criticism of christainity (like pointing out funny signs) would lead to this argument!
quote:
Unfortunately, Christianity teaches The Way. As in "we're right and you're wrong, and if you don't accept Jesus, yer goin' ta hell." Do you see how invalidating that is to millions of non-Christians?
Yep. I call that the fundamental flaw of christianity. It sets the tone for any and all dialogue between christian/non-christian. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 16:49:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Unfortunately, Christianity teaches The Way. As in "we're right and you're wrong, and if you don't accept Jesus, yer goin' ta hell." Do you see how invalidating that is to millions of non-Christians?
It should not matter what Christians think regarding their judgements as to who does and who does not go to hell. That view is strictly opinion, and I see no reason for that to invalidate someone. By feeling invalidated you somehow validate their belief system. I would not give them the pleasure of letting them think that I somehow feel inferior to them. |
How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter?
-- Woody Allen, Without Feathers, 1975 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 20:33:49 [Permalink]
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Yeah, this thread's gone sloshing down the tubes right from the git-go. Sometimes I wonder why everybody gets so rabid over religion, myself included. Seem kinda pointless, really (assholes like Falwell, Robertson, Hinn, et al. excepted).
But whadda hell, I got a sign I saw a couple of years ago that stuck in my mind:
GOD TRIUMPHS
OVER REASON.
Go figger.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 05/30/2004 20:37:52 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2004 : 20:58:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
It should not matter what Christians think regarding their judgements as to who does and who does not go to hell. That view is strictly opinion, and I see no reason for that to invalidate someone. By feeling invalidated you somehow validate their belief system. I would not give them the pleasure of letting them think that I somehow feel inferior to them.
To quote my favorite toon of all time.... "Pronoun troubles."
Personally, I do not care what christians think or believe of me.... as long as the expression of their beliefs does not effect me. The issue is not that we should feel inferior to them, but that they percieve us as inferior to them. This sets the tone for all interaction between christian and non-christian when it is openly known. You will be treated differently.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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