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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2001 : 01:02:35 [Permalink]
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That's true Snake....and America takes another step back from the civilized world. I thought I had read that the stem cells available were only good for a short period of time and there will have to be another decision, who knows maybe even a real one and right in time for the election. It will be interesting to see if the administration has the backbone to make a real decision at this time. I won't hold my breath.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 05:15:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
I must be living in a box...what are you talking about?
The convoluted theology part should have read convoluted reasoning by theology. I explain this in my last post under the 'Stem Cell Research' thread.
The President has set the limit for federal funding to those lines in use now. He says that there's 60 but no one in the scientific community can find more than about 12. Either his estimates are overly optomistic or he's lying. I don't know which.
Greg.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 06:52:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's nice to see that this discussion has degraded from commentary about policy to real issues like adultery (yes, I'm being sarcastic).
I think you're misrepresenting and oversimplifying the issue in the context in which it is being discussed...
quote:
Clinton-bashing...
"Clinton-bashing"? As opposed to honest criticism? Do you have so little respect for others' opinions? Do you think it's fair to say you are "Bush-bashing" when you criticize him? I don't...
quote:
I'm surprised that anyone is still talking about 'Whitewater' since it has long been shown that the Clintons had nothing to do with the scandal.
Is anyone talking about it in any other way than an historical context?
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What the American people got was a 60 million dollar report with way too much information about the President's private business.
Out of all the billions that government wastes, why is this all of a sudden so disgusting to you, and to people who defend Clinton's "indefensible" behavior?
quote:
The initial investigation was based on hearsay evidence given by someone facing a long prison term.
So out of all the friends and co-workers who were indicted, fled the country, or pled the 5th, Clinton and Hillary were completely innocent and unaware... Possible, I guess.
quote:
A woman (can't remember her name) spent over a year in prison without trial essentially for refusing to implicate the Clintons in Whitewater.
You are not reporting facts, you are distorting them. Susan McDougal spent a year in jail simply for not answering a yes or no question. "Is Bill Clinton telling the truth?" She could have said no, and walked away. She chose to remain silent.
quote:
Is this not to be considered torture?
Um, no. Nice hyperbole though. 
quote:
It certainly sounds like 'showing the implements of torture' to me. Many buckled under and admitted to being witches (non existing entities) under similar torture during the middle ages. I smell a witch-hunt.
Ah, more and better! Comparing Ken Starr to people who burned women alive!
quote:
The topic of this thread however is the current President's policies. It's interesting that when GW is criticized, someone always comes back with: "Oh yeah! Well Clinton fucked around on his wife" as if it is some sort of incantation designed to ward off the evil truth.
I don't think anyone here has used their low opinion of Clinton to defend Bush. I certainly haven't. One doesn't necessarily imply the other. I certainly didn't vote for W.
quote:
Personally, I'm surprised and concerned about the lack of outrage in this forum regarding the stem cell issue.
If the stem cell issue had anything remotely to do with banning the research completely, as you seem to incorrectly imply, then I'm sure the outrage would be greater here. However, since it only has to do with federal funding, which I'm not that big of a fan of anyway, it's not that big a deal. The private sector, and pharmaceutical companies have plenty of money to conduct research on their own. As I understand it, private funding has not been affected. They can acquire more fetuses as they need them. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
quote:
If the President had stated that Creationism would be tought side by side with Evolutionary Biology in schools from now on, I could imagine a total melt-down on this board.
Damn straight!
[continued...]
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 06:54:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
The fact is that no one seems to care much that the future of cutting-edge biotechnology in this country is being compromised by a convoluted theology and overly-optomistic estimates (or outright lies).
More hyperbole. Justify that "the future of cutting-edge biotechnology in this country is being compromised".
quote:
When concerned scientists ask the Administration about the 60 strains of stem cells that the President spoke of (there is evidence of only about 12 strains in the literature), the Administration spokesman said that it was up to them to prove that there are less than 60 strains. Interesting.
What possible motive would they have to lie? Isn't it easy to tell what the accurate count is? I don't understand why this is such an issue.
Whew! Ok, I'm done. 
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 08:29:30 [Permalink]
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TD,
I do not have time to discuss Clinton especially since the thread here is about the current President's policies. I just find it interesting that whenever someone criticizes Bush, out come the comments about Clinton. This is a blatantly fallacious argument. It is not my intent to justify Clintons actions. I couldn't care less about his personal life and I disagreed with many of his policies.
quote:
If the stem cell issue had anything remotely to do with banning the research completely, as you seem to incorrectly imply, then I'm sure the outrage would be greater here. However, since it only has to do with federal funding, which I'm not that big of a fan of anyway, it's not that big a deal. The private sector, and pharmaceutical companies have plenty of money to conduct research on their own. As I understand it, private funding has not been affected. They can acquire more fetuses as they need them. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
So it's okay for a biotech company to use stem cells in their research which will not be all encompassing. Universities would do additional research in addition to the limited (based on corporate priorities)research of the biotech firms. You have just made a good point. If it was a moral issue that took weeks of soul searching to determine, why did'nt he ban stem cell research. It's like if the research was done on aborted 2nd trimester fetuses, and he just allowed private corporations to do the research on moral grounds, I would assume that you would consider him a hypocrite. Yet since you accidentally agree with the policy on the grounds that no federal money should be spent on university research, you don't consider the policy to be convoluted. The reason that he would lie is to reassure the public and scientists that there are enough stem cells to go around when there are not. This would limit public consternation in the short term.
Greg
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2001 : 17:24:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
(Greg responding to TD): ... I just find it interesting that whenever someone criticizes Bush, out come the comments about Clinton. ...
The posts got sidetracked onto Mr Clinton when one poster told us that "...Clinton did the same thing, of course, but he was sharp and could convince the electorate that he was a good guy looking out for them" and followed with the erroneous statement that "Republicans have always hated him for that..."
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 00:38:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
However, since it only has to do with federal funding, which I'm not that big of a fan of anyway, it's not that big a deal
Until I started working in my lab, I did not realise how much science relies on federal funding. Most private companies will not spend money on something unless there is a clear and immediate profit involved; in other words, since stem cell research does not have guaranteed results, it will not get as much funding as may be necessary.
I am afraid I'm not clever enough to come up with a good signature, eh? |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 01:12:57 [Permalink]
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Anyone here think that a single human would have gone into space at all let alone the moon without goverment funding? At the time space exploration/national posturing began there wasn't much hope of it being any use to eveeryday people. Does anyone here want to argue that the government shouldn't have funded any of that. Try to picture a country without government funding on research. You'd probably get a real kick out of it if you're Amish.
Of course, the real payoff for the investment made on space technology is still a good few years off but it should be more significant than all the wealth ever generated.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 07:29:48 [Permalink]
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Whoa there, horsies!!!
"Not a big fan of" is completely different than "totally against".
Chill out...
[btw, @tomic, I work for NASA! You're preachin' to the choir, my man.]
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Ma gavte la nata!
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/22/2001 07:34:12 |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 07:57:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Not a big fan of" is completely different than "totally against".
Sorry about that. This topic gets me going, you know the anti-science thing.
Greg.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2001 : 09:05:00 [Permalink]
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I'd like to add that there is already a "brain drain" beginning, as I mentioned in another area. Some scientists who work in the field of stem cell research would rather work in a country where this research is encouraged and funded. England is one of those places.
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Larry
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 05:08:52 [Permalink]
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I'd like to address a lot of points if I may. G W Bush was arrested on a drunk driving charge. His wife killed someone while driving drunk. His daughters are underage drinkers and party animals. So far, so good. Chelsea Clinton is going to Oxford to study. The Bush twins would be lucky to find Oxford on a map.
Now, I think environment plays a big part in children's development - so the environment of the Bush girls was presumably not as favourable as for Chelsea. If Dubya treats the US as "well" as he treats his family...
Also, he hasn't just thrown out all the work done by *American* negotiators at Kyoto (who were holding things up in the first place anyway) but has also indicated his willingness to tear up other international treaties like the test ban treaty, the chemical and biological weapons treaty and so on. NMD is rubbish and everyone knows it. The only reason it exists is so that Republican arms companies can research faster, more accurate missiles and get a big budget for it. Wake up America, the rest of the world is brewing coffee!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 07:37:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'd like to address a lot of points if I may. G W Bush was arrested on a drunk driving charge. His wife killed someone while driving drunk. His daughters are underage drinkers and party animals. So far, so good. Chelsea Clinton is going to Oxford to study. The Bush twins would be lucky to find Oxford on a map.
Now, I think environment plays a big part in children's development - so the environment of the Bush girls was presumably not as favourable as for Chelsea. If Dubya treats the US as "well" as he treats his family...
Also, he hasn't just thrown out all the work done by *American* negotiators at Kyoto (who were holding things up in the first place anyway) but has also indicated his willingness to tear up other international treaties like the test ban treaty, the chemical and biological weapons treaty and so on. NMD is rubbish and everyone knows it. The only reason it exists is so that Republican arms companies can research faster, more accurate missiles and get a big budget for it. Wake up America, the rest of the world is brewing coffee!
Larry,
We are awake, and quite a few of us object to the foriegn policy of this administration. But to be completely fair, I had not heard of Mrs. Bush killing someone while drunken driving. Do you have a date, place, or victim for this allegation? I would not think that the meat grinder we call an election process would have missed this nugget. Tipper Gore's involvement in the PMRC didn't escape the media circus.
I will agree with you that the Nuclear Missile Defence plan that GW proposes is not good. It has faced opposition by nearly every ally we have. It blatantly violates the Anti Ballastic Missile treaty of 1972 which is the basis for SALT and SALT II. The US should not procede on a path which makes our allies and neighbors nervous. So now, GW wants to unilaterally pull out of the ABM treaty of 1972. This is a bad idea, IMHO.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 08:50:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
But to be completely fair, I had not heard of Mrs. Bush killing someone while drunken driving. Do you have a date, place, or victim for this allegation?
She was indeed involved in an accident (rumor says while intoxicated). She ran a stop sign, and I believe her ex-boyfriend was in the car, or in a car she hit. He died. She was about 17 at the time. I'll try to find a reliable reference (I researched this quite a while back, and it seemed to be a true story).
(These are quoted off another message board, so it's possible they aren't authentic, but I'm pretty sure I found valid information a while back.)
quote:
Questions Still Surround Laura Bush's Midland Tragedy
from THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS, May 4, 2000
"Report Finds Fatal Crash Attriutable to Mrs. Bush"
"The wife of Gov. George W. Bush was responsible for a traffic accident that killed a high school classmate in Midland 37 years ago, according to a newly released accident report. Investigators said a 1963 Chevrolet driven by Mrs. Bush - then Laura Welch, a high school senior - ran a stop sign and struck a Chevrolet Corvair driven by Michael Douglas. Copies of the accident report - parts of which are illegible - were released Wednesday by Midland City Attorney Keith Stretcher after state Attorney General John Cornyn held that the information was public....Mr. Stretcher, the Midland city attorney, initially declined to release any information about the accident on the grounds that it involved minors and therefore was exempt from disclosure under the Texas Public Information Act. He also contended that disclosing the information would violate the parties' privacy rights. Police listed two violations as contributing to the accident, both by Mrs. Bush. One checked box read "disregard stop sign or light," and the other was illegible....Both drivers were Robert E. Lee High School students. Neither was drinking, and no citations were issued, according to the report." (more from DMN)
in GLOBE, August 8, 2000
"Bush's Wife Still Haunted by Death Crash Nightmare"
Presently available on newsstands, this story reviews material found in the DMN story documented above and an AP story on the same day, as well as a relevant interchange from a Barbara Wolters interview with Laura Bush on 20/20 the next day. A partial copy of the original Midland police report is included, along with photographs of the crash scene. Judy Dykes, a friend of Laura Bush who was in the passanger's seat at the time of the accident, was unnamed in the DMN story, but told the DMN reporter, "[The story] is not worth digging into.It was an accident, a horrible, horrible accident years ago, and it has no relevance." The GLOBE appears to believe relevance may possibly be found in its reporting of comments made by two unnamed members of Texas' law enforcement community. One wondered why no ticket was issued by the Midland police. The other wondered why no grand jury was convened by the City or County of Midland. --Politex, 8/7/00
[From a Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39160-2001Mar21?language=printer]
quote:
One night in November 1963, a ride went wrong. Laura, who had just turned 17, didn't see a stop sign and hit a car driven by Mike Douglas, a track star who ran with her crowd. He died at the scene. She was not charged.
No mention of intoxication anywhere.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane...
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/30/2001 09:02:08
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/30/2001 09:13:41 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2001 : 10:00:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
But to be completely fair, I had not heard of Mrs. Bush killing someone while drunken driving. Do you have a date, place, or victim for this allegation?
She was indeed involved in an accident (rumor says while intoxicated). She ran a stop sign, and I believe her ex-boyfriend was in the car, or in a car she hit. He died. She was about 17 at the time. I'll try to find a reliable reference (I researched this quite a while back, and it seemed to be a true story).
(These are quoted off another message board, so it's possible they aren't authentic, but I'm pretty sure I found valid information a while back.)
quote:
Questions Still Surround Laura Bush's Midland Tragedy
from THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS, May 4, 2000
"Report Finds Fatal Crash Attriutable to Mrs. Bush"
"The wife of Gov. George W. Bush was responsible for a traffic accident that killed a high school classmate in Midland 37 years ago, according to a newly released accident report. Investigators said a 1963 Chevrolet driven by Mrs. Bush - then Laura Welch, a high school senior - ran a stop sign and struck a Chevrolet Corvair driven by Michael Douglas. Copies of the accident report - parts of which are illegible - were released Wednesday by Midland City Attorney Keith Stretcher after state Attorney General John Cornyn held that the information was public....Mr. Stretcher, the Midland city attorney, initially declined to release any information about the accident on the grounds that it involved minors and therefore was exempt from disclosure under the Texas Public Information Act. He also contended that disclosing the information would violate the parties' privacy rights. Police listed two violations as contributing to the accident, both by Mrs. Bush. One checked box read "disregard stop sign or light," and the other was illegible....Both drivers were Robert E. Lee High School students. Neither was drinking, and no citations were issued, according to the report." (more from DMN)
in GLOBE, August 8, 2000
"Bush's Wife Still Haunted by Death Crash Nightmare"
Presently available on newsstands, this story reviews material found in the DMN story documented above and an AP story on the same day, as well as a relevant interchange from a Barbara Wolters interview with Laura Bush on 20/20 the next day. A partial copy of the original Midland police report is included, along with photographs of the crash scene. Judy Dykes, a friend of Laura Bush who was in the passanger's seat at the time of the accident, was unnamed in the DMN story, but told the DMN reporter, "[The story] is not worth digging into.It was an accident, a horrible, horrible accident years ago, and it has no relevance." The GLOBE appears to believe relevance may possibly be found in its reporting of comments made by two unnamed members of Texas' law enforcement community. One wondered why no ticket was issued by the Midland police. The other wondered why no grand jury was convened by the City or County of Midland. --Politex, 8/7/00
[From a Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A39160-2001Mar21?language=printer]
quote:
One night in November 1963, a ride went wrong. Laura, who had just turned 17, didn't see a stop sign and hit a car driven by Mike Douglas, a track star who ran with her crowd. He died at the scene. She was not charged.
No mention of intoxication anywhere.
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Hope springs eternal but there's no conviction
Actions mistaken for lip service paid
All this concern is the true contradiction
The world is insane...
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/30/2001 09:02:08
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/30/2001 09:13:41
OK. Is the GLOBE one of those papers like the Weekly World News or National Enquirer?
As the appearance of alcohol is only rumored, it leaves that Mrs. Bush was involved in an accident while a minor (probably due to inexperienced driver error) in which a death occurred. The most she would have been charged with is failure to obey a stop sign.
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