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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2004 : 07:40:06
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I was thinking about writing this up as an article, but decided it'd probably work better as a discussion, instead.
It appears to me that according to Christian teachings, when a person dies, he/she is stripped of "Free Will" no matter whether one goes to Heaven or Hell.
Hell, of course, is eternal punishment, and so it should be obvious that one cannot repent once one gets there.
Heaven, though, is a little trickier. Just as obvious, of course, is the idea that one cannot get to Heaven, and then choose to reject God. The "perfection" of Heaven cannot be so marred for even a nanosecond, if I'm not mistaken.
But less than that "big" imperfection, what about the choices we make which really make us human? Those goals and dreams which motivate our actions?
Some of the pages I found with a Google search for "what is heaven like" said one could "strive" for things (like practicing one's favorite instrument enough to get accepted into Heaven's orchestra), but they also said that in a perfect Heaven, there's no such thing as dissappointment. So, in Heaven, it seems that if you try for something and blow it, you'll be incapable of feeling frustration or any other "negative" emotion.
Yet without such feelings, the idea of "joy" (which Heaven is chock-full of) becomes relatively meaningless. If everything you do makes you feel joyous, then one's first under-par golf game will give you the same reward as brushing your teeth. There will be no sense of accomplishment.
And it also seems to me that there can be no competition, anyway. All games which can end in a tie would have to end in a tie, since otherwise it would mean that someone wasn't playing perfectly (and imperfection taints Heaven). And for other games, like chess, the "perfect game" would be known, and so the winner would depend on who went first with the outcome already known before the game began.
I don't know about the rest of you, but without competition (even friendly), and without accomplishment, life would be crap. Heaven involves just as much of a lack of choice - and enforced emotional states - as Hell does. What's the point of eternal life if you cannot do what you want to with it?
And so, because I see the Christian choices for life-after-death to be equivalent, and equally unpleasant, my hope upon death is the same as what we have evidence for: non-existence. It seems much more humane.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2004 : 07:53:34 [Permalink]
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Yeah, I think that's the way it looks; boiled down, a single emotion on one end and raw nerve endings on the other. And no one seems to know the location of the bathroom in either.
Ah, sweet oblivion!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 08:02:45 [Permalink]
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| Yeah. Without bad, then what is good? Good is "not-bad" and bad is "not-good", in every situation. If everything was good, would we know it? Possibly, if we remembered a time when there was both good and bad. I'm reminded of The Matrix, a more fun mythology, where Agent Smith says something about how they first tried to create a utopia, a perfect world, and as a consequence, entire crops were lost. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2004 : 19:30:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
And so, because I see the Christian choices for life-after-death to be equivalent, and equally unpleasant, my hope upon death is the same as what we have evidence for: non-existence. It seems much more humane.
Well, given the choice of the two options in the christian afterlife I would have to agree that "none of the above" would be the best answer. But who says it has to be either/or?
Personally, I prefer some of the eastern versions of life after death. Much more entertaining if you could come back again... and again, and again...
For my own part.... I disbelieve any claim of an afterlife. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 08:22:22 [Permalink]
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| I think if you graduate to heaven or hell, using earthly definitions would be unusable. Think about it, you just crossed realms and are in the presence of infinity and true perfection.........I think all human thought processes would become obsolete real quick. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 12:05:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think all human thought processes would become obsolete real quick.
Or you could go with the Hindu version... "Atman is Brahman"
Meaning loosely.... that you are a part of a larger whole, and when you die you may just rejoin that whole. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 02:57:48 [Permalink]
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| My point is, thinking beyond this realm is unusable, so everything beyond is subjective.........make your own interpretation-- feel FREE |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 04:29:21 [Permalink]
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I think that Lucifer was in Heaven when he rebelled, wasn't he? Or was he? Don't know.
I generally don't think in terms of good or bad. Happiness is a choice, regardless of what you do. Something either helps you towards a goal or doesn't help you towards a goal. What happens in the middle is life. That life can be appreciated for what it is. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2004 : 21:00:42 [Permalink]
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Ricky wrote:quote:
What exactly is the evidence for non-existence? All I know is that life after death has no evidence, but this can't be considered as evidence for non-existence.
There are indeed times at which "absence of evidence" can equal "evidence of absence." One of those times is when people have been seeking evidence of a thing for ages and ages, using many different methods, but haven't found diddly squat. Mind you, one can only reach a very tentative conclusion through this argument (since a single positive datum destroys the premise utterly), but given the huge numbers of attempts which have been made to probe the stereotypical afterlife (which believers claim can be probed), the "safe bet" is that it doesn't exist.
The word "stereotypical" is what was missing from the sentences you quoted. The context was, after all, Christian beliefs, so opening up the question to mean "any sort of afterlife whatsoever" isn't exactly fair play, Ricky. 
Gorgo wrote:quote:
I think that Lucifer was in Heaven when he rebelled, wasn't he? Or was he? Don't know.
Lucifer (Satan, the Devil, whomever) was never a human being who'd been granted "Free Will" to choose to accept God or to rebel against Him. The premise here is, of course, that humans are the only creatures who have been granted "Free Will," and so it would follow that Lucifer was created by God with God's intent that Lucifer reject Him, since he didn't have the ability to choose to do so. Makes blaming Satan for temptation a little disingenuous, don't it?
Fireballin wrote:quote:
I think if you graduate to heaven or hell, using earthly definitions would be unusable. Think about it, you just crossed realms and are in the presence of infinity and true perfection.........I think all human thought processes would become obsolete real quick.
You are positing that upon death, we stop being human. That is the conclusion of my original argument, you're just being an optimist about what might happen, whereas I'm sticking to what my puny mortal brain can know from the appropriate texts.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2004 : 17:52:04 [Permalink]
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I know this doesn't really add anything to the discussion, but this thread just reminded me of the old "Twilight Zone" episode where the gambler dies and goes to "heaven." At first, he's thrilled that he's winning at everything. In fact, he can't lose! But as time passess, he becomes more and more bored, and his boredom turns to frustration, then desperation.
Finally, Mr. French from "Family Affair" shows up in a white suit and asks him what the problem is. The gambler grumbles that this isn't what he thought heaven was going to be like. With a devious laugh, Mr. French replies, "who said this was heaven?" ;)
It all depends upon one's definition, I guess. :) |
Paladin |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2004 : 18:51:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
I think if you graduate to heaven or hell, using earthly definitions would be unusable. Think about it, you just crossed realms and are in the presence of infinity and true perfection.........I think all human thought processes would become obsolete real quick.
So is this like graduating to another reality. If all human thought processes become obsolete, then it would seem reasonable that memories of being human would equally be obsolete. That we wouldn't remember being human since what made us human was how we thought about and considered this earthly existence. Unless you can explain how human thought processes and human memory are somehow independent of the other. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 07:22:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I was thinking about writing this up as an article, but decided it'd probably work better as a discussion, instead.
It appears to me that according to Christian teachings, when a person dies, he/she is stripped of "Free Will" no matter whether one goes to Heaven or Hell.
Hell, of course, is eternal punishment, and so it should be obvious that one cannot repent once one gets there.
Heaven, though, is a little trickier. Just as obvious, of course, is the idea that one cannot get to Heaven, and then choose to reject God. The "perfection" of Heaven cannot be so marred for even a nanosecond, if I'm not mistaken.
But less than that "big" imperfection, what about the choices we make which really make us human? Those goals and dreams which motivate our actions?
Some of the pages I found with a Google search for "what is heaven like" said one could "strive" for things (like practicing one's favorite instrument enough to get accepted into Heaven's orchestra), but they also said that in a perfect Heaven, there's no such thing as dissappointment. So, in Heaven, it seems that if you try for something and blow it, you'll be incapable of feeling frustration or any other "negative" emotion.
Yet without such feelings, the idea of "joy" (which Heaven is chock-full of) becomes relatively meaningless. If everything you do makes you feel joyous, then one's first under-par golf game will give you the same reward as brushing your teeth. There will be no sense of accomplishment.
And it also seems to me that there can be no competition, anyway. All games which can end in a tie would have to end in a tie, since otherwise it would mean that someone wasn't playing perfectly (and imperfection taints Heaven). And for other games, like chess, the "perfect game" would be known, and so the winner would depend on who went first with the outcome already known before the game began.
I don't know about the rest of you, but without competition (even friendly), and without accomplishment, life would be crap. Heaven involves just as much of a lack of choice - and enforced emotional states - as Hell does. What's the point of eternal life if you cannot do what you want to with it?
And so, because I see the Christian choices for life-after-death to be equivalent, and equally unpleasant, my hope upon death is the same as what we have evidence for: non-existence. It seems much more humane.
Standard Answer: You are comparing apples to oranges. Existance in Heaven will not involve playing games and musical instruments. There will be no boredom to fill with games and musical instruments. There will be no opportunities to lose or be disappointed. It is an entirely different kind of existance that your feeble human mind cannot even conceptualize. You will not suffer, you will not want for anything, and you will be happy all the time, although time itself will be meaningless. You cannot use your experiences in this life to puzzle out the nature of the afterlife. They are completely different in every way. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2004 : 10:34:31 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi wrote:quote:
You cannot use your experiences in this life to puzzle out the nature of the afterlife. They are completely different in every way.
Great! In that case, I conclude that my actions in this life must not be directed by the promise of a completely alien reward or punishment system after I die. If I said to you, Chaloobi, "say 'Dave W. is the most incredibly cool guy I know' and I'll give you what's in this box, and you have to take it," when you have no clue as to what's in the box, would you?
And I also conclude that everyone who's written a "what is Heaven like?" essay which compares it to this life here (and every one I read did so) lies - which in turn means that those authors will not find out if they were correct. Poor them. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 08:12:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Chaloobi wrote:quote:
You cannot use your experiences in this life to puzzle out the nature of the afterlife. They are completely different in every way.
Great! In that case, I conclude that my actions in this life must not be directed by the promise of a completely alien reward or punishment system after I die. If I said to you, Chaloobi, "say 'Dave W. is the most incredibly cool guy I know' and I'll give you what's in this box, and you have to take it," when you have no clue as to what's in the box, would you?
And I also conclude that everyone who's written a "what is Heaven like?" essay which compares it to this life here (and every one I read did so) lies - which in turn means that those authors will not find out if they were correct. Poor them.
Hey, Don't kick me around, I didn't claim it made sense.
Note, your analogy with the box omits some key facts. You forgot to mention that whatever is in the box is the best thing I've ever experienced and that it will last forever. Oh, and that if I don't comply with your request, I get the worst thing I've ever experienced, and that also will last forever. This is essentially what fundamentalist Christianity offers, though moderates have softened it up quite a bit.
I was raised in the Catholic Church, attended 12 years of parochial school, and I was eventually taught Hell and Satan did not exist but were mere concepts. God does not keep a personal cosmic torture chamber for all the non-believers. How could He do that and be all loving and all forgiving at the same time? It's too big a contradiction. Hell is knowing God exists but the absence of the direct experienc of Him. What you lose with that is supposedly as bad as fire and brimstone. |
-Chaloobi
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2004 : 09:15:09 [Permalink]
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Chaloobi wrote:quote:
Hey, Don't kick me around, I didn't claim it made sense.
I wasn't kicking you around. You were just handy to use in an example.  quote:
Note, your analogy with the box omits some key facts. You forgot to mention that whatever is in the box is the best thing I've ever experienced and that it will last forever. Oh, and that if I don't comply with your request, I get the worst thing I've ever experienced, and that also will last forever. This is essentially what fundamentalist Christianity offers, though moderates have softened it up quite a bit.
Doesn't matter if it's the "best thing I've ever experienced" if it's so far outside my experience that it is indescribable.quote:
I was raised in the Catholic Church, attended 12 years of parochial school, and I was eventually taught Hell and Satan did not exist but were mere concepts. God does not keep a personal cosmic torture chamber for all the non-believers. How could He do that and be all loving and all forgiving at the same time? It's too big a contradiction. Hell is knowing God exists but the absence of the direct experienc of Him. What you lose with that is supposedly as bad as fire and brimstone.
And yet, according to the Catholic Catechism on the Vatican's web site,The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. So apparently you got mixed up with some of those damned liberal Catholics. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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