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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/19/2004 : 16:33:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Verlch:
I find it very effective that the possibility of fossils of transitional animals doesn't happen because it simply can't.
The moment a creationist allows for any species to be transitional, it's game over. When they just couldn't deny what they call micro evolution any longer because of overwhelming evidence they just shifted the game. Micro happens but Macro doesn't. They observed evolution in action and simply built a wall around what they couldn't deny and created a new category of evolution that they say can't happen. They built a strawman argument and are sticking to it. But I digress...
Verlch is telling the truth when he says "transitional animals doesn't happen because it simply can't." From his point of view, they really can't. Hand him a smoking gun like Homo Habilis, a fully bipedal tool using hominid with modern and primitive features, when compared to a homo sapian, and he will simply dismiss it. This animal cannot represent a transitional form to creationists and is therefor simply dismissed as a "fully formed" ape. Again, the moment they acknowledge what seems obvious to us, it's game over for them. Some creationists willfully ignore transitional features. Others, like Verlch, are so convinced of the impossibility of transitional's that they consider any reference to a transitional as ridiculous horseshit. It goes to the core of how they define themselves. Recognize a transitional and all they have invested in their read on the accuracy of the bible goes down the shiter. That is no small thing, to have your core beliefs turned upside down.
There is nothing that any of us can show Verlch that will change his mind. As he sees it the constant calling out for him to support his claims are stupid because he is that sure he is correct even when he does get a few of his facts wrong.
There is no debate going on with Verlch. There never was. Supporting evidence is outside of his ability to understand, let alone offer. And while a creationist win would cause us to alter our beliefs, a concession by him, from his point of view, would send him straight to hell... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 16:45:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Oh, and here's a reality check: Duane Gish does no science, but is merely another tortured mouthpiece for ICR. He is the inventer of the ‘Gish Gallop' method of debate, where he spews forth one assertion after another so fast that his opponent has no time to organize a response to any of it. Hmm.
Hmm. Sounds suspiciously like someone on this forum. I wonder who that could be... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 17:06:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
No, they lived just long enough to confuse the living demons out of you. To us, who have at least minimal understanding of evolution, there is no confusion. We understand that transitionals are rare because they are created by huge shifts in the echo-system. Once the system stabilises again, so will the new species that evolved. An ice-age might last 50'000 years. If it happened 400 million years ago, the timespan of that ice-age is extremely short in comparison.
A minimal understanding of something you cannot observe!!!
Don't you have anything more constructive to come up with than this? Then anyone could declare me winner by default. Given your answer, my conclusion is that it wasn't clear enough for you to understand, or you didn't care to understand.
I could explain the above quote in more detail for you, but your response to it would most certainly not indicate if you understood anything about it. It wouldn't make it worth my while.
It was much easier to explain to my girlfriend why the cruise-control of my car made it more gas-thirsty. When she asked me questions about the regulation, her questions indicated that she actually understood what I was telling her.
Trying to instruct Verlch is not worth the effort anymore. He is closed-minded and don't want to learn anything. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 17:17:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
Jarvik was a brilliant anatomist, but he was also painstaking. He started in 1948, but did not finish until 1996. In those 48 years no one else was able to analyse the fossil.
So this one, seemingly half human / monkey jaw bone fossil. Mysteriously disappears into the night!!! quote:
From Mabuse:
The subject discussed was fish evolving. Why this need to involve the Piltdown man hoax (that was exposed as a hoax by scientists as soon as it became available for study), do you have MBD, ADHD or DAMP unmedicated?
No why can't somebody else see his work he spent 50 years on!!!
Because the find was his to begin with. That also makes it his right to examine it first, unless he care to share the credit for it. If I had such a find, I would have liked to get the credit all by myself. I don't blame him much for taking that long.
quote:
Why do you have so much faith in this fella that it wasn't a hoax!!!
Because when the fossile eventually got released to other scientists, others would have detected a hoax if there ever was one. His paper wouldn't have been published in scientific journals unless there had been other scientists confirming that his find was true.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 17:28:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
I find it very effective that the possibility of fossils of transitional animals doesn't happen because it simply can't.
It's a very effective statement, the one that transitional fossiles can not happen.
Very effective indeed because it eliminates the need to explore and examine any fossiles at all. Volia! No research needed to be done, because it's all in the bible!
Lot's of time saved, that's effectiveness.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 18:27:30 [Permalink]
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Earlier in this thread, I suggested to verlch that he should look up Dr. Duane Gish and ask him about bullfrogs. If he does this, he might better duck 'cause I suspect that ol' Duane is sick of hearing about bullfrogs. 
For all that don't already know about it, here's the story:
quote:
Duane Gish, a protein biochemist with a Ph.D. from Berkeley, is vice-president of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and creationism's most well-known spokesperson. A veteran of perhaps 150 public debates and thousands of lectures and sermons on creationism, Gish is revered among creationists as a great scientist and a tireless fighter for the truth. Among noncreationists, however, Gish has a reputation for making erroneous statements and then pugnaciously refusing to acknowledge them. One example is an unfinished epic which might be called the tale of two proteins.
In July 1983, the Public Broadcasting System televised an hour-long program on creationism. One of the scientists interviewed, biochemist Russell Doolittle, discussed the similarities between human proteins and chimpanzee proteins. In many cases, corresponding human and chimpanzee proteins are identical, and, in others, they differ by only a few amino acids. This strongly suggests a common ancestry for humans and apes. Gish was asked to comment. He replied:
"If we look at certain proteins, yes, man then -- it can be assumed that man is more closely related to a chimpanzee than other things. But on the other hand, if you look at certain other proteins, you'll find that man is more closely related to a bullforg than he is to a chimapanzee. If you focus your attention on other proteins, you'll find that man is more closely related to a chicken than he is to a chimpanzee."
http://www.holysmoke.org/gishlies.htm
The article continues, telling of numerous attempts to get Gish to provide documentation for his claims and showing that he'd gotten his info second hand from a doubtful scorce-- baaad shit for someone who claims to be a scientist. He still suffers ridicule for it today, in not small part from myself.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 19:15:08 [Permalink]
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filthy wrote:quote:
If I were looking for a fish that might evolve into an amphibian, assuming the proper conditions a few million years down the road, I'd look to the lungfishes and some species of catfish that are already air breathers -- there are several that I know of.
Dammit. Lungfishes are what I was thinking of, but all I could acquire from the ol' noggin was mudskippers. Good catch. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 19:31:35 [Permalink]
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verlch wrote:quote:
No I have to be nice....Or I get the whole Troll routine...
No, you don't "get the whole Troll routine" because you're not nice, you get the whole troll routine because you act like an Internet troll.quote:
I find it very effective that the possibility of fossils of transitional animals doesn't happen because it simply can't.
You find it effective because you refuse to see the transitions, is all. You expect something from evolution (a fish with hooves, for example), which evolutionary theory doesn't suggest could happen. But, instead of trying to find out what evolutionary theory does predict, you'd much rather mock the professionals and make an ass of yourself with every statment.quote:
A minimal understanding of something you cannot observe!!!
No, you cannot observe it, simply because you refuse to. You wouldn't dare look, as you are scared shitless that if you see it, you'll suddenly stop believing in God.
Cuneiformist wrote:quote:
I percieve no point entertaining verlch's huge list of gratuitous assertions at this point.
Nope. There is none. Another creationist will be along shortly, however - hopefully with a more Christian attitude and a desire to discuss these things. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 21:08:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Cuneiformist wrote:quote:
I percieve no point entertaining verlch's huge list of gratuitous assertions at this point.
Hey Dave W,
Even though I agree with the above, I didn't write it. I think it was Dude who wrote than in a post back on page three of this thread. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2004 : 21:43:35 [Permalink]
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| Yep, that was me |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 06/19/2004 21:43:53 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2004 : 03:08:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nope. There is none. Another creationist will be along shortly, however - hopefully with a more Christian attitude and a desire to discuss these things.
Actually, we have vesco, who becomes more interested and therefore interesting all the time.
The guy will actually read an entire post! He'll even open a link! And he is literate, and further, he doesn't do that ad hom/straw men/red herring crap. Nor will he back down if he thinks he's right. Oooo, I hope we can keep him!
Hell, I hope we can keep verlch, too. He makes me dig around for reference and also visit places I've not been to in quite a while. The Gish screed, fer 'xample. And my blood pressure needs a little stiring up, now and again; it's good.
There's no point in laying a factual trap for v, however sweet the bait. I've tried it a couple of times, but the smegger never follows up far anough to fall into it. I don't know if it's his shotgun approach to everything that lets him miss it, or he just sees it coming. We can but try, eh? 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2004 : 08:12:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
No, they lived just long enough to confuse the living demons out of you. To us, who have at least minimal understanding of evolution, there is no confusion. We understand that transitionals are rare because they are created by huge shifts in the echo-system. Once the system stabilises again, so will the new species that evolved. An ice-age might last 50'000 years. If it happened 400 million years ago, the timespan of that ice-age is extremely short in comparison.
A minimal understanding of something you cannot observe!!!
I was wondering if someone would explain to me why creationist consider this to be such a strong statement against evolution. Who among the creationist observed the creation ? Even Moses (or more likely an anonymous author) didn't observer the creation as described in Genesis. All creationist have is a claim of devine revelation to a man, likely anonymous, about how it was done.
It's incredible how faith weakens the mind and gives one the arogance to simply deny all scientific evidence they view as conrary to their creation/christian mythology. Though it does seem to make life simpler, "No thinking required". |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2004 : 11:34:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hand him a smoking gun like Homo Habilis, a fully bipedal tool using hominid with modern and primitive features, when compared to a homo sapian, and he will simply dismiss it.
I have yet to see the fossil, but there must be about one millin different fossilised men all the way back to fish, if not a billion transitional fossils, to be found, that never will be found. Because they don't exist, they esist only by reason of spectulation and no evidence!!!! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2004 : 11:40:47 [Permalink]
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"If we look at certain proteins, yes, man then -- it can be assumed that man is more closely related to a chimpanzee than other things. But on the other hand, if you look at certain other proteins, you'll find that man is more closely related to a bullforg than he is to a chimapanzee. If you focus your attention on other proteins, you'll find that man is more closely related to a chicken than he is to a chimpanzee."
They find now that man is more closely related to a mouse!!! How does that work in your 'theroy'??? |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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