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ethan
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2004 : 20:12:54
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I just wanted to make a reference to the often forgotten issue of abortion. I won't get into the hypocrisy that's involved in the actual act of abortion right now, but I did want to address the Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS) and the mental and physical trauma that occurs in so many women who have an abortion. So many people have this conception of "choice," but do these women know the emotional and physical baggage that will come along with that choice? Abortion isn't a good thing for anyone involved, except maybe the abortionist who makes the money.
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ethan |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2004 : 23:24:56 [Permalink]
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Hello Ethan, welcome to SFN.
quote:
but I did want to address the Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS) and the mental and physical trauma that occurs in so many women who have an abortion. So many people have this conception of "choice," but do these women know the emotional and physical baggage that will come along with that choice?
You'll have to forgive me, but Post Abortion Syndrome sounds fake to me. Perhaps you have it confused with post partum depression? (it's late, and I am not doing any research tonight, so I'll ask you to do it  )
Can you provide some additional information? Like an acredited source for a description of PAS? Is it a diagnosis recognized by an accredited medical establishment? (like the AMA?) Links to a medical journal or two that discuss it? Some specific statistical info on the number of women who experience it? Or a link to a single article that covers all or some of that? |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 02:42:42 [Permalink]
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If abortion is ever forgotten, it certainly isn't forgotten for very long. Please, Ethan, check the archives in the Social Issues folder. Abortion is hardly forgotten.
Also, as Dude mentioned. If you make the claim for something, please, attempt to support it. While I do not doubt that some women have had bad emotional experiences after an abortion, I do not know if such a thing occurs in a significant number of cases, nor how debillitating it may be. I cannot understand an issue without all of the facts.
Ethan, if you are indeed a pro-life supporter, may I make a suggestion to perhaps help your case. Pro-lifers simply assert that abortion is wrong because they claim it is murder. They assert that a fertillized egg is a viable human life requiring all of the protections afforded most people. This PAS argument you offer is a bit of a different tact, but let's be honest for a moment. Feeling badly after we do something certainly doesn't stop us from doing something we feel we must. We recently traded in our SUV for an economy car to lower our cost of living and to conform to the lifestyle we advocate. My wife still cries about losing that one car she loved more than any other. However, I wouldn't call her occasional unhappiness a disorder.
Pro-choice advocates do not buy the murder argument because it is never supported by rational fact based debate, but rather by authority. Instead the fetus is normally viewed as having the potential for human life. If we accept potential as a logical reason to afford a fetus human rights, then where do we draw the line? I'm being facitious of course, but this potential could even be extended to the thought of procreation.
In all other facets of human life, humanity is predicated on the ability of a living organism to be self-aware, independent in the ability to maintain basic life functions, capable of rational thought, share a certain amount of physical characteristics that put us within the H. sapiens species and maintain the ability to feel pain and to react to pain in the same general manner as the rest of us. Of course, there are gray areas, but you will not be able to sway the majority of Americans to the pro-life side unless you can convince people a fetus shares these characteristics. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 05:47:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
I just wanted to make a reference to the often forgotten issue of abortion. I won't get into the hypocrisy that's involved in the actual act of abortion right now, but I did want to address the Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS) and the mental and physical trauma that occurs in so many women who have an abortion. So many people have this conception of "choice," but do these women know the emotional and physical baggage that will come along with that choice? Abortion isn't a good thing for anyone involved, except maybe the abortionist who makes the money.
Would PAS have anything to do with the religous Faithful shouting 'BABY MURDERER' at women as they enter/leave abortion clinics? Perhaps it's the anti-abortion movement that is causing the symptoms of this syndrome.
As far as my PERSONAL beliefs regarding abortion, I don't think I'd ever advocate it for my own family, but that's my own decision. And not having been in a situation where it might be warranted, I can't really say what I'd do for sure until actually faced with the decision. And I recognize this is the truth for everyone else as well. It is not my place to make these types of decisions for other people whose lives and circumstances I can't begin to understand. Therefore I must in good conscience be pro-choice. For me to take any other stance would be selfish, arrogant, and ignorant and ultimately an affront to the entire concept of Faith. |
-Chaloobi
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 05:47:33 [Permalink]
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Post-Abortion Syndrome is not a generally recognized medial disorder. Women feel a variety of emotions after an abortion; every woman is different. To assume all women would feel as you would, ethan, is called projection.
Post-partum depression, however, is relatively common among women who've just given birth. If I remember correctly, a woman's estrogen levels plummet dramatically right after childbirth.
For documentation:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_post.htm
I'm really tired of the pro-lifers making stuff up to support their position. Just say you think it's murder and move on, but stop with the sneaky, underhanded, half-truths and outright lies.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 06:54:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
I just wanted to make a reference to the often forgotten issue of abortion. I won't get into the hypocrisy that's involved in the actual act of abortion right now, but I did want to address the Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS) and the mental and physical trauma that occurs in so many women who have an abortion. So many people have this conception of "choice," but do these women know the emotional and physical baggage that will come along with that choice? Abortion isn't a good thing for anyone involved, except maybe the abortionist who makes the money.
Ethan,
The abortion issue is rarely forgotten due to the number of debates going on at any one time. The abortion issue has been raised here in the recent past and in other areas such as religion.
PAS is not a valid diagnosis. The symptoms described are congruent with post partum depression and the stigma attached to women who chose to have an abortion.
Your blanket statement that abortion isn't good for anyone except the abortionist is demonstratably false.
Abortion is good for the mother in the following ways
1) To save the mother's life. One thing that pro-lifers oftentimes ignore or forget is that there are some conditions which make an abortion medically necessary. Such as tubal pregnancies and morbidly hydrocephalic fetuses. Tubal pregnancies never go to term because both the mother and fetus are killed by the pregnancy. (Pro-lifers kill two for one in this deal)
2) To remove the product of a rape. It is absolutely cruel to inflict the responsibility of raising a rapists child on the victim.
3) To remove the product of incest. Anybody say polydactyl?
Then there is the right for women to have a majority say in what happens to their bodies.
The law is written so that the fetus gains rights as it becomes more mature. Abortion on demand ends after the first trimester. This is where 98% of all abortions happen. The following 2% are medically necessary. (Although some of the first term abortions are also medically necessary)
All the information I have seen from Planned Parenthood and other counseling organizations indicate the symptoms and likelihood of post partum depression following an abortion. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 11:37:51 [Permalink]
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| Dave, @tomic, etc. you want me to write up my thoughts and arguments on abortion? I'm tired of repeating them, then I can just refer to an article here on SFN. Maybe? |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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| Edited by - Trish on 06/24/2004 11:39:08 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 12:35:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Dave, @tomic, etc. you want me to write up my thoughts and arguments on abortion? I'm tired of repeating them, then I can just refer to an article here on SFN. Maybe?
You want your opinions/arguments stickied on the board? Why don't you just put it into a text file, save it on your pc, and paste it whenever an abortion thread pops up. I'm not sure having any one persons's ideas/arguments - however good they may be - enshrined somewhere on the site is a good idea. (Unless they're mine, of course  ) |
-Chaloobi
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 13:23:57 [Permalink]
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| Nothing wrong with a little editorial on the topic Dr. If well written, it would also give others some insight into the thinking of one side of the debate. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ethan
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 20:10:35 [Permalink]
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| Since I'm kind of short on time tonight, I'll just make a couple comments and reply to renae mostly. I would like to apologize for saying something rather broad without backing it up. I also wasn't referring to abortion being ignored on this site but more in the public sector of late and my frustration with that. abortionfacts.com is a great site for finding out symptoms of abortion, and I'd like to do more research on the issue in the future. Renae as far as your accusations of making things up, being underhanded and sneaky, and outright lying, I hardly think they're fair based on the small amount that I wrote to open up a discussion. I would appreciate hearing if you've known women like I have that experienced the trauma and guilt that I have seen. And no, that guilt is not brought on by misguided projectionists such as I. I believe (sorry, for now I'm not going to address facts)that there is an innate desire within every woman to care for and nurture their child, and when that is ripped away it's only natural that something traumatic would take place. Again for the sake of time I will address others' thoughts later if I get the chance. In the meantime I will become more informed on the issue myself |
ethan |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 20:41:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
I just wanted to make a reference to the often forgotten issue of abortion. I won't get into the hypocrisy that's involved in the actual act of abortion right now, but I did want to address the Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS) and the mental and physical trauma that occurs in so many women who have an abortion. So many people have this conception of "choice," but do these women know the emotional and physical baggage that will come along with that choice? Abortion isn't a good thing for anyone involved, except maybe the abortionist who makes the money.
Ethan, have you, yourself, ever had an abortion? Do you fully comprehend the emotional and "physical" baggage that follows? According to your nonevident, stereotypical statements, which you have stated were very broad. Do you realize that if there is a PAS, there is also a Post-BIRTH Syndrome, where women become depressed for months, maybe YEARS, after the birth of a child?
http://www.4woman.gov/faq/postpartum.htm
And DARE you say what kind of hypocrisy there is behind abortion!!!
I do not know of which you speak, for aborting a child could be the most beneficial methods this world has ever seen! Preventing a child from living a life that is mostly expected to be one full of regret for ever being born. For one, a reason why many women have abortions is because they are not ready or capable of having and raising healthy children. Be it lack of finances or lack of parenting skills.
http://z.about.com/ri?url=http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm&length=5&gs=womensissues&tl=45
I'm sure many women are fully aware of these symptoms following abortion, but these symptoms exist from having an abortion are MUCH LESS PREVALENT AND TORTUROUS than raising a CHILD that the woman is not ready to have! Let's face it, there are enough deficient parents in this world as is, let's not raise the populations statistics anymore.
I myself have had an abortion. I got pregnant when I was 17, because I did not use enough contraceptives to prevent it so. It was a stupid mistake on my part. However, if I had not had the abortion, my child would grow to hate me. I wasn't ready to have a child, financially, mentally, and physically. I would rather wait to have a child that can fully benefit from my developed parenting skills. I would never try and bring a person to life and know that the life my child would lead would be overwhelmingly difficult because of his parent. I think that my child would be much more grateful for me doing so, for waiting until I WANT to be pregnant (if that day ever comes). I did experience what you would consider PAS, however, I personally handled the entire situation magnificently well. I was more stressed before the abortion, felt more guilt and pain before the abortion than after. Afterwards I felt relieved more than guilty. I still look back on that time with a deep melancholy, for it was a tumultuous time, but it was still a period of my life that has allowed me to grow to become a person I'd much rather be now. I felt I was too young to have to deal with such pressure, and I was, but I realized then as I do now I brought it upon myself. That was the most heartwrenching fact of all. I did not feel guilty for "killing" anything because killing is crucial to living and I did it at a time where my child knew nothing, felt nothing, had nothing but potential for a wretched life, no matter how hard I would have tried. As far as physicalities go, I am back to my pre-pregnant size. Most women who have abortions early enough do go back to their natural body weight.
Abortion, like food, drugs, sex, life, death, here, now, is not a good thing for anyone, but at the same time, is not bad either. And I'd say I've clarified my views on why abortion IS a good thing. I've experienced it and I am HAPPY that I went through with it. I still have my life, MY OWN LIFE AND NO ONE ELSE'S, to lead, and until that day comes when I'm ready to take on a new one, I'll be grateful for my decisions. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2004 : 21:32:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renae as far as your accusations of making things up, being underhanded and sneaky, and outright lying, I hardly think they're fair based on the small amount that I wrote to open up a discussion.
No ethan, she's not accusing you of personally making things up.... just of spouting back garbage that somebody else made up without bothering to check (because it confirms your own beliefs) if there is any validity to it. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 12:53:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ethan
Since I'm kind of short on time tonight, I'll just make a couple comments and reply to renae mostly. I would like to apologize for saying something rather broad without backing it up. I also wasn't referring to abortion being ignored on this site but more in the public sector of late and my frustration with that. abortionfacts.com is a great site for finding out symptoms of abortion, and I'd like to do more research on the issue in the future. Renae as far as your accusations of making things up, being underhanded and sneaky, and outright lying, I hardly think they're fair based on the small amount that I wrote to open up a discussion. I would appreciate hearing if you've known women like I have that experienced the trauma and guilt that I have seen. And no, that guilt is not brought on by misguided projectionists such as I. I believe (sorry, for now I'm not going to address facts)that there is an innate desire within every woman to care for and nurture their child, and when that is ripped away it's only natural that something traumatic would take place. Again for the sake of time I will address others' thoughts later if I get the chance. In the meantime I will become more informed on the issue myself
Since you seem to be genuinely interested in learning more, I'd like to present the source for my assertation that 2% of all abortions are late term and 1.5% of those late term are partial birth abortions.
CDC Abortion Survelience, 2000 (the most recent report available)
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm
Planned Parenthood discussion on possible post-partum depression
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ABORTION/chooseabort3.html#How%20will
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/library/facts/emoteff_010600.html
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2004 : 23:11:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi
quote:
Originally posted by Trish
Dave, @tomic, etc. you want me to write up my thoughts and arguments on abortion? I'm tired of repeating them, then I can just refer to an article here on SFN. Maybe?
You want your opinions/arguments stickied on the board? Why don't you just put it into a text file, save it on your pc, and paste it whenever an abortion thread pops up. I'm not sure having any one persons's ideas/arguments - however good they may be - enshrined somewhere on the site is a good idea. (Unless they're mine, of course )
One of the reasons I mention this, is I've lost the links to some of the information I referenced two years ago from the UN, WHO, CDC, etc when my computer crashed. Additionally, recent attempts to find this information again have failed on my part, mainly because the UN and the CDC both have made the information available only with passwords. I don't know why, just that the searches I did resulted in requests for passwords.
Unless SFN has maintained the archives from more than the past year, the information is lost to me, completely. I did include excerpts of the information in addition to the links. The numbers of abortions per capita are important to many of the points I make with regards to making contraceptives readily available to the youth/general public, as was done in Denmark. These numbers were significant in relation to the move in Denmark to reduce the numbers of abortions per capita, this tends to support the concept that readily available contraceptives, without invasive questioning and parental permission do reduce the numbers of unwanted pregnancies. Additionally, the ability of a young person to gain this knowledge without fear of stigma improves their ability to prevent unwanted pregnancy, something that teaching abstinence only fails at miserably. A woman who is incapable of control her own reproductive cycles is either burdened with the results of unwanted pregnancies, becoming trapped in a cycle of ignorance perpetrated upon her by her own government and society or she relies upon the abortion as her primary form of birth control. The pill is not 100% effective, nor is it a viable option for all women - I cannot take the pill because of harmful side effects. Are my only options then to be, tubal ligation, abortion, or abstinence?
Are you aware that women under the age of 35 who have less than two children cannot choose to have a tubal ligation to prevent pregnancy? Why? It's my body, if I decide that I don't want children, why does someone else have the choice of whether I'm allowed to permanently prevent myself from having children? Why is this not my decision?
I address fully, responsibility for enforced ignorance (a tenant of the pro-life movement), the lack of empathy for the suffering of a child after it's born - not of concern to those whose only interest is in saving the unborn child, etc.
Unfortunately, much of my supporting documentation, is lost in the annals of SFN history 2+ years ago. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 06:52:47 [Permalink]
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Ethan, you're projecting AGAIN by assuming that all women have an innate desire to raise and nurture a child. All women do NOT have this desire; I didn't have it all throughout my twenties and I know several women who didn't have it at all. One woman I know was voluntarily sterilized when she was very young and has no regrets.
I also know a woman who has had three abortions. She's a well-adjusted, happy woman. She simply isn't ready for kids. When she's ready, I think she'll make a good mom.
That a woman experiences grief, post-partum depression, or even sadness after an abortion does not indicate that the decision was wrong for her. Lots of us experience grief when we leave a job or a relationship or move to a new city, yet we know this is the right decision for us.
I'm sure some women do feel trauma and guilt after an abortion. Good counseling, both before and after the abortion, can help tremendously with that. The pro-lifers can actually add stress and confusion to a pregnant woman already stressed and confused and frightened (pickets and protests outside abortion clinics, showing fake photos, pressuring, lecturing, moralizing, manipulating, guilt-inducing). They do more harm than good, but in their righteousness, they can't see it.
I had just read an article about pro-life organizations pretending to be "pregnancy centers" and lying to, misleading, delaying, and otherwise obstructing women seeking abortions. The ethics of this type of pro-lifer are disgusting. So to come here and read more half-truths and lies from you was just too much.
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 13:07:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
I also know a woman who has had three abortions. She's a well-adjusted, happy woman. She simply isn't ready for kids. When she's ready, I think she'll make a good mom.
How many substances does so abuse and we can judge her happiness by how many anti-depressants she is taking! |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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