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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 08/19/2004 : 18:49:16 [Permalink]
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Abortion is legal. If someone 'just wants to have one' then more power to them. It's not like it's the business of anyone here what someone wants to do that's protected under the constitution.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 23:39:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Well, statistically abstinence is the best method of preventing pregnancies, 100% sure (except for Mary I guess  ).
Or, Alcmene mother of Alcides, Ceres, the mother of Osiris, Meri mother of Horus, Maia, mother of Sakia and Yasoda of Chrishna, Celestine, mother of the crucified Zunis; Chimalman, mother of Quexalcote; Semele, mother of the Egyptian Bacchus, and Minerva, mother of the Grecian Bacchus; Prudence, mother of Hercules; Alcmene, mother of Alcides; Shing- Mon, mother of Yu, and Mayence, mother of Hesus.
Abstinence seems to be risky. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 03:22:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Preventing unwanted pregnancies would be easier if some folks didn't think abstinence campaigns were the best method.
Well, statistically abstinence is the best method of preventing pregnancies, 100% sure (except for Mary I guess ). I feel as parents we need to inform our children of all aspects of sexuality including birth control methods. Any campaigns in our schools to inform kids about birth control should include abstinence as well as other methods, since it is a legitimate form of birth control.
quote:
Using abortion as birth control should be divided into conscious choice vs choice by default. Having unprotected sex doesn't mean one thought it through and said OK I choose abortion as birth control. More likely the person is in denial that pregnancy will happen 'this time'.
By default they did use it as birth control.
One has to define which 'best' you want to operate with.
Best method if used, sure.
But not so great a method if it isn't used.
To evaluate the best method(s) of preventing pregnancy you need to be measuring actual outcome, not expected outcome.
There's a difference in what you might like the world to be and what it really is. Kids don't think all the time, they don't all have parents who are teaching them, and, they don't always believe it will happen to them. Perceived risk is a huge factor in risk reduction science.
BTW, I think they can figure out what abstinence is without a lesson, don't you? |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 05:57:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Abortion is legal. If someone 'just wants to have one' then more power to them. It's not like it's the business of anyone here what someone wants to do that's protected under the constitution.
@
Yes, It's legal. I just find it immoral, uncommon, and illogical to have an abortion as a primary birth control method. Goes with the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure thing.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 10:46:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Best method if used, sure.
But not so great a method if it isn't used.
Isn't this true for all contraceptive methods?
quote:
To evaluate the best method(s) of preventing pregnancy you need to be measuring actual outcome, not expected outcome.
There's a difference in what you might like the world to be and what it really is. Kids don't think all the time, they don't all have parents who are teaching them, and, they don't always believe it will happen to them. Perceived risk is a huge factor in risk reduction science.
But isn't that what education is for? To inform them accurately on what the risk of getting pregnant and diseases are for all forms of contraception.
quote:
BTW, I think they can figure out what abstinence is without a lesson, don't you?
Are you saying that it should not even be talked about? I beleive all forms of contraception should be addressed including abstinence.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 11:50:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes, It's legal. I just find it immoral, uncommon, and illogical to have an abortion as a primary birth control method. Goes with the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure thing.
I don't think the words primary,method, birth or control appeared anywhere in my post. But if a woman was using birth control and just wanted to abort an accidental pregnancy then why not? If a woman got pregnant on purpose and then events made her change her mind who are we to say "no, you can't do that"? I could go on and on but why waste the time? It's legal and in many cases the right thing to do but even when to you or me it's not right we still shouldn't get in the way.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2004 : 11:58:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
quote:
Yes, It's legal. I just find it immoral, uncommon, and illogical to have an abortion as a primary birth control method. Goes with the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure thing.
I don't think the words primary,method, birth or control appeared anywhere in my post. But if a woman was using birth control and just wanted to abort an accidental pregnancy then why not? If a woman got pregnant on purpose and then events made her change her mind who are we to say "no, you can't do that"? I could go on and on but why waste the time? It's legal and in many cases the right thing to do but even when to you or me it's not right we still shouldn't get in the way.
@
Sorry, the line "just because I want one" was mine. I erroneously thought you were addressing me. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2004 : 02:33:43 [Permalink]
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Val, quote:
I just find it immoral, uncommon, and illogical to have an abortion as a primary birth control method. Goes with the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure thing.
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Robb, quote:
Isn't this true for all contraceptive methods?
.....
But isn't that what education is for? To inform them accurately on what the risk of getting pregnant and diseases are for all forms of contraception.
.....
Are you saying that it should not even be talked about? I believe all forms of contraception should be addressed including abstinence.
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These kinds of emotions and the arguments that result interfere with looking for solutions based on evidence. Putting a desire to change the law aside, let's say you want to see less abortions if you can't outlaw them altogether.
Instead of looking at what you believe about the value of teaching abstinence, the best approach is to evaluate, with good scientific methods, which interventions work best, which to include, which to emphasize. That is how you best allocate intervention dollars.
Teenagers don't use abortion as a birth control. There are a multitude of other factors that lead to the decision to have unprotected sex. The idea if you get pregnant you can always have an abortion presumes the thought even crossed their mind, which is highly unlikely.
Are there studies that show abstinence campaigns actually decrease the accidental pregnancy rate or the abortion rate? Are there studies that show the dollars spent on such campaigns prevent more pregnancies or abortions than if the same dollars were spent elsewhere? These are the questions to ask, not do I think abstinence is a good thing to teach.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 08/21/2004 02:34:54 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2004 : 06:50:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Val, quote:
I just find it immoral, uncommon, and illogical to have an abortion as a primary birth control method. Goes with the ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure thing.
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Robb, quote:
Isn't this true for all contraceptive methods?
.....
But isn't that what education is for? To inform them accurately on what the risk of getting pregnant and diseases are for all forms of contraception.
.....
Are you saying that it should not even be talked about? I believe all forms of contraception should be addressed including abstinence.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These kinds of emotions and the arguments that result interfere with looking for solutions based on evidence. Putting a desire to change the law aside, let's say you want to see less abortions if you can't outlaw them altogether.
Instead of looking at what you believe about the value of teaching abstinence, the best approach is to evaluate, with good scientific methods, which interventions work best, which to include, which to emphasize. That is how you best allocate intervention dollars.
Teenagers don't use abortion as a birth control. There are a multitude of other factors that lead to the decision to have unprotected sex. The idea if you get pregnant you can always have an abortion presumes the thought even crossed their mind, which is highly unlikely.
Are there studies that show abstinence campaigns actually decrease the accidental pregnancy rate or the abortion rate? Are there studies that show the dollars spent on such campaigns prevent more pregnancies or abortions than if the same dollars were spent elsewhere? These are the questions to ask, not do I think abstinence is a good thing to teach.
While I would like to see the number of abortions significantly decrease due to people not having to seek them, I do not pretend that abstinance only is a valid brith control instruction. I'm all for reproductive instruction. I just find that Robb's assertation that abortion is being used as a primary birth control method as being unfounded. I find the idea that someone would do such a thing to be illogical and immoral. (Especially considering the various medical risks inherent in any operation "down there" and economic considerations.)
I also realize that there are predatory people. I do not want to outlaw abortion. I want to increase funding to teaching about birth control and will teach my own youngest child about it. (The oldest already knows.) The other thing, which I see as a parental responsibility, is to teach children that sex is not a casual thing and should be reserved for two people who are in a committed relationship. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2004 : 12:49:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
The other thing, which I see as a parental responsibility, is to teach children that sex is not a casual thing and should be reserved for two people who are in a committed relationship.
Good luck with that. Hormones > Education.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2004 : 06:07:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
The other thing, which I see as a parental responsibility, is to teach children that sex is not a casual thing and should be reserved for two people who are in a committed relationship.
Good luck with that. Hormones > Education.
If you reinforce something enough and live by it, you make quite an impression on your child. Also, the reinforcement of barrier methods of birth control from an appropriate age forward will tend to encourgage their use by the child if they decide they are in a committed relationship. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2004 : 06:09:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
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Robb, quote:
Isn't this true for all contraceptive methods?
.....
But isn't that what education is for? To inform them accurately on what the risk of getting pregnant and diseases are for all forms of contraception.
.....
Are you saying that it should not even be talked about? I believe all forms of contraception should be addressed including abstinence.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These kinds of emotions and the arguments that result interfere with looking for solutions based on evidence. Putting a desire to change the law aside, let's say you want to see less abortions if you can't outlaw them altogether.
Instead of looking at what you believe about the value of teaching abstinence, the best approach is to evaluate, with good scientific methods, which interventions work best, which to include, which to emphasize. That is how you best allocate intervention dollars.
I did not say anywhere that abstinence should be the only thing taught. I beleive all forms of contraception should be taught including abstinence. What is wrong with teaching abstinence as a birth control method along with the other methods?
quote:
Are there studies that show abstinence campaigns actually decrease the accidental pregnancy rate or the abortion rate? Are there studies that show the dollars spent on such campaigns prevent more pregnancies or abortions than if the same dollars were spent elsewhere? These are the questions to ask, not do I think abstinence is a good thing to teach.
Again I do not advocate teaching abstinence only, but it should be taught as part of the discussion.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/24/2004 : 06:18:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
While I would like to see the number of abortions significantly decrease due to people not having to seek them, I do not pretend that abstinance only is a valid brith control instruction.
Me neither
quote:
I want to increase funding to teaching about birth control and will teach my own youngest child about it. (The oldest already knows.) The other thing, which I see as a parental responsibility, is to teach children that sex is not a casual thing and should be reserved for two people who are in a committed relationship.
This we agree also. My daughters are not old enough yet, but will know about all forms of contraception at the appropriate time. They will also know where we stand on sex out of marriage. Ultimately they will choose for themselves what the beleive to be right. Parents can have a large influence on their childrens struggle with sexuality.
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