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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
 Posted - 08/18/2004 : 11:14:21 [Permalink]
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| I think "birth" and "control" aren't particularly fashioned to go with the other. It's impossible at this point to fully control birth and pregnancy, I think. "Birth prevention" may seem a bit more suitable. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 11:20:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Now for people who use abortion as a form of birth control (very, very rare), abortion is generally discouraged. There has to be a valid reason to have an abortion besides "dammit, I want one". Whether that reason is medical, emotional, or socio-economic, whatever causes the least harm should be pursued
I disagree that abortion as a form of birth control is "very, very rare". This link states that from a 1987 AGI study the following results were obtained.http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
unready for responsibility 21%
is too immature or young to have child 11%
woman's parents want her to have abortion <0.5%
has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
husband or partner wants her to have abortion 1%
has all the children she wanted or all children are grown 8%
can't afford baby now 21%
concerned about how having baby would change her life 16%
These are all valid reasons for birth control and they add up to 90%. 90% of all abortions are used as a birth control method.
I can't speak for Valient Dancer, but most people, when referring to abortion and birth control in the same sentence, mean choosing abortion as their first defense in birth control, as opposed to using it as a backup.
If a woman uses birth control and then gets pregnant, she will often opt for an abortion. Most people see this as different from a woman who runs around having unprotected sex and then uses abortion to keep from having a child. I would consider the first example as responsible, and the second as irresponsible. Of course, that's just my opinion. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 11:29:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
I can't speak for Valient Dancer, but most people, when referring to abortion and birth control in the same sentence, mean choosing abortion as their first defense in birth control, as opposed to using it as a backup.
If a woman uses birth control and then gets pregnant, she will often opt for an abortion. Most people see this as different from a woman who runs around having unprotected sex and then uses abortion to keep from having a child. I would consider the first example as responsible, and the second as irresponsible. Of course, that's just my opinion.
In the same article another AGI study in 2001-2002 states that 46% of all abortions are from women not using contraception. Which is still more than very rare. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 11:41:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Now for people who use abortion as a form of birth control (very, very rare), abortion is generally discouraged. There has to be a valid reason to have an abortion besides "dammit, I want one". Whether that reason is medical, emotional, or socio-economic, whatever causes the least harm should be pursued
I disagree that abortion as a form of birth control is "very, very rare". This link states that from a 1987 AGI study the following results were obtained.http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html
unready for responsibility 21%
is too immature or young to have child 11%
woman's parents want her to have abortion <0.5%
has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
husband or partner wants her to have abortion 1%
has all the children she wanted or all children are grown 8%
can't afford baby now 21%
concerned about how having baby would change her life 16%
These are all valid reasons for birth control and they add up to 90%. 90% of all abortions are used as a birth control method.
Did you not read the text which you quoted?
"unready for responsibility 21%"
falls under the category of emotional reason. Humans make mistakes. The child born into such situations has some serious obstacles and the mother is harmed by being forced into a situation she is unable to deal with.
"is too immature or young to have child 11% "
Comes under the statutory rape provision. Why saddle a young child with a constant reminder of the rape.
"woman's parents want her to have abortion <0.5% "
Again, statutory rape.
"has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12% "
Situations change. The child started off as being wanted. Why bring a child into an unstable environment.
"husband or partner wants her to have abortion 1%"
Control issues by partner.
"has all the children she wanted or all children are grown 8% "
Oops babies do happen. Even when sterilization methods are used. There is a mistake concerning fertility.
"can't afford baby now 21% "
A reasonable response to changing situations, prophylactic failure.
"concerned about how having baby would change her life 16%"
Should someone with these kinds of serious questions to the point that they consider abortion really produce children?
The fact that you have to cite a study which was conducted informally in 1987 for 1,773 people who had abortions. Your own source then quotes conflicting data for a more recent time period of indicates that a full 53% of all abortions were obtained after using contraceptive methods. If contraception failed due to misapplied contraceptive methods (as the article implies), didn't they try to avoid this in the past and wouldn't they be more likely to use contraception properly in the future?
Your own source only counts those abortions due to medical reasons and rape/incest as being "non-choice". The number of abortions gotten in leiu of birth control are so rare as to be not counted. As you can see, our definitions of "abortion as a means of birth control" differ greatly. Mine means that the person makes a conscious decision to use abortion to prevent pregnancy even though they are aware of other (cheaper) birth control methods and they don't intend on having a child to begin with.
And here's the kicker.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
"8% of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or poorly educated." -- Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Contraceptive use among U.S. women having abortions in 2000-2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(6):294-303
(edited to correct spelling) |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 08/18/2004 12:28:16 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 12:14:34 [Permalink]
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Robb, sometimes birth control fails. My mother was on the pill with both my brother and I. I got pregnant when I was on the pill (I had a very early miscarriage; no abortion.)
The pill is one of the most effective form of birth control, but it's also one of the most difficult in terms of side effects. I know several women who can't take it at all. The more common side effects include nausea, weight gain, acne, and mood changes. The rare ones are scarier, like blood clots and stroke.
I've been almost neurotic about birth control my whole life. Why? Because I grew up in a family and social structure where responsibility was stressed, I had accesss to medical care, I had good medical insurance, I wasn't raped, my family was loving and supportive, etc. I was lucky. How can I hold other women to the same "responsbility" standard I hold myself when others may not have had the advantages I had?
It's the whole Not Judging thing. Y'know....it's actually a Christian teaching.  |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 13:39:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Did you not read the text which you quoted?
"unready for responsibility 21%"
falls under the category of emotional reason. Humans make mistakes. The child born into such situations has some serious obstacles and the mother is harmed by being forced into a situation she is unable to deal with.
In the 2001-2002 study in my earlier post it said that 46% of women who had abortions did not use contraception. So 46% of the 21% that said they were unready for the responsibility did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
"is too immature or young to have child 11% "
Comes under the statutory rape provision. Why saddle a young child with a constant reminder of the rape.
Where does this study say she was a minor or was raped? Some more than likely were minors, some might have been 22 and too young and immature to have a baby.
quote:
"woman's parents want her to have abortion <0.5% "
Again, statutory rape.
This does not say they forced her to have an abortion or that she was raped. Some most likely were.
quote:
"has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12% "
Situations change. The child started off as being wanted. Why bring a child into an unstable environment.
You are assuming the child was wanted to start with. Some most likely were single before they had sex and never intended to marry. I do admit some were results of good relationships gone bad during the pregnancy.
quote:
"husband or partner wants her to have abortion 1%"
Control issues by partner.
It is still a done for birth control. As stated earlier 46% of the 1% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
"has all the children she wanted or all children are grown 8% "
Oops babies do happen. Even when sterilization methods are used. There is a mistake concerning fertility.
Again, as stated earlier 46% of the 8% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
""can't afford baby now 21% "
A reasonable response to changing situations, prophylactic failure.
Again, as stated earlier 46% of the 21% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
"concerned about how having baby would change her life 16%"
Should someone with these kinds of serious questions to the point that they consider abortion really produce children?
I was refuting your ascertain that very few abortions occur as a result of using it as birth control, not whether the reasons are right or wrong. As stated earlier 46% of the 16% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
The fact that you have to cite a study which was conducted informally in 1987 for 1,773 people who had abortions. Your own source then quotes conflicting data for a more recent time period of indicates that a full 53% of all abortions were obtained after using contraceptive methods. If contraception failed due to misapplied contraceptive methods (as the article implies), didn't they try to avoid this in the past and wouldn't they be more likely to use contraception properly in the future?
Yes, that also means that 46% of people that have had abortions did not use contraception. Rape and incest only account for a maximum of 1% of those cases. The other 45% had sex that they knew could cause pregnancy.
quote:
Your own source only counts those abortions due to medical reasons and rape/incest as being "non-choice". The number of abortions gotten in leiu of birth control are so rare as to be not counted. As you can see, out definitions of "abortion as a means of birth control" differ greatly. Mine means that the person makes a conscious decision to use abortion to prevent pregnancy even though they are aware of other (cheaper) birth control methods and they don't intend on having a child to begin with.
Our definitions do differ, my definition is a person who makes a conscious decision to have sex without contraception then decides to have an abortion because they did not want the baby.
quote:
"8% of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or poorly educated." -- Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Contraceptive use among U.S. women having abortions in 2000-2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(6):294-303
Please explain how this statistic is relevant to the discussion.
I was not discussing whether these are valid reasons for having an abortion or not, only that more than very few were the result of using it as birth control. I will reduce the number I quoted to 40% based on your objections, but I still contend it is greater than very, very few.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 13:46:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Robb, sometimes birth control fails. My mother was on the pill with both my brother and I. I got pregnant when I was on the pill (I had a very early miscarriage; no abortion.)
The pill is one of the most effective form of birth control, but it's also one of the most difficult in terms of side effects. I know several women who can't take it at all. The more common side effects include nausea, weight gain, acne, and mood changes. The rare ones are scarier, like blood clots and stroke.
I've been almost neurotic about birth control my whole life. Why? Because I grew up in a family and social structure where responsibility was stressed, I had accesss to medical care, I had good medical insurance, I wasn't raped, my family was loving and supportive, etc. I was lucky. How can I hold other women to the same "responsbility" standard I hold myself when others may not have had the advantages I had?
It's the whole Not Judging thing. Y'know....it's actually a Christian teaching.
I am not judging them. Where was I judgemental? I am refuting the claim that very few abortions occur because of using it as birth control.
As far as the pil goes, My wife informed me after we were married about the side effects of the pil and the side effects she had with it. I was shocked at all the warnings on the label and the side effects it can cause. I agree women need to be informed and really think about using it. Alot of prochoice groups claim the pill as a big step in women's rights without talking about these side effects. |
| Edited by - Robb on 08/18/2004 13:57:38 |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 14:06:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
As far as the pil goes, My wife informed me after we were married about the side effects of the pil and the side effects she had with it. I was shocked at all the warnings on the label and the side effects it can cause. I agree women need to be informed and really think about using it. Alot of prochoice groups claim the pill as a big step in women's rights without talking about these side effects.
I personally get the shivers every time I see a commercial for the various pills we have to choose from. I haven't been sexually active myself, and when I choose to, I'm thinking more and more about the condom or maybe one of those nice shots. It's a pretty scary decision any way you look at it. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2004 : 22:15:04 [Permalink]
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Keep things in perspective. Birth control side effects are pretty minimal compared to the health risks of pregnancy. Newer versions are much improved over older ones.
Diaphrams work fine if you don't want to mess with hormones. |
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SciFi Chick
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 06:11:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Keep things in perspective. Birth control side effects are pretty minimal compared to the health risks of pregnancy. Newer versions are much improved over older ones.
Diaphrams work fine if you don't want to mess with hormones.
So far, the extent of my "research" is listening to those commercials where they list all the side effects. Obviously, I will talk to my doctor about the best choice for me when the time comes.
Thanks for the info though. |
"There is no 'I' in TEAM, but there is an 'M' and an 'E'." -Carson
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
-Sophocles |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 06:20:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Did you not read the text which you quoted?
"unready for responsibility 21%"
falls under the category of emotional reason. Humans make mistakes. The child born into such situations has some serious obstacles and the mother is harmed by being forced into a situation she is unable to deal with.
In the 2001-2002 study in my earlier post it said that 46% of women who had abortions did not use contraception. So 46% of the 21% that said they were unready for the responsibility did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
"is too immature or young to have child 11% "
Comes under the statutory rape provision. Why saddle a young child with a constant reminder of the rape.
Where does this study say she was a minor or was raped? Some more than likely were minors, some might have been 22 and too young and immature to have a baby.
quote:
"woman's parents want her to have abortion <0.5% "
Again, statutory rape.
This does not say they forced her to have an abortion or that she was raped. Some most likely were.
quote:
"has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12% "
Situations change. The child started off as being wanted. Why bring a child into an unstable environment.
You are assuming the child was wanted to start with. Some most likely were single before they had sex and never intended to marry. I do admit some were results of good relationships gone bad during the pregnancy.
quote:
"husband or partner wants her to have abortion 1%"
Control issues by partner.
It is still a done for birth control. As stated earlier 46% of the 1% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
"has all the children she wanted or all children are grown 8% "
Oops babies do happen. Even when sterilization methods are used. There is a mistake concerning fertility.
Again, as stated earlier 46% of the 8% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
""can't afford baby now 21% "
A reasonable response to changing situations, prophylactic failure.
Again, as stated earlier 46% of the 21% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
"concerned about how having baby would change her life 16%"
Should someone with these kinds of serious questions to the point that they consider abortion really produce children?
I was refuting your ascertain that very few abortions occur as a result of using it as birth control, not whether the reasons are right or wrong. As stated earlier 46% of the 16% in this situation did not use contraception to try to stop the pregnancy. This looks to me that it is being used as birth control.
quote:
The fact that you have to cite a study which was conducted informally in 1987 for 1,773 people who had abortions. Your own source then quotes conflicting data for a more recent time period of indicates that a full 53% of all abortions were obtained after using contraceptive methods. If contraception failed due to misapplied contraceptive methods (as the article implies), didn't they try to avoid this in the past and wouldn't they be more likely to use contraception properly in the future?
Yes, that also means that 46% of people that have had abortions did not use contraception. Rape and incest only account for a maximum of 1% of those cases. The other 45% had sex that they knew could cause pregnancy.
quote:
Your own source only counts those abortions due to medical reasons and rape/incest as being "non-choice". The number of abortions gotten in leiu of birth control are so rare as to be not counted. As you can see, out definitions of "abortion as a means of birth control" differ greatly. Mine means that the person makes a conscious decision to use abortion to prevent pregnancy even though they are aware of other (cheaper) birth control methods and they don't intend on having a child to begin with.
Our definitions do differ, my definition is a person who makes a conscious decision to have sex without contraception then decides to have an abortion because they did not want the baby.
quote:
"8% of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control; nonuse is greatest among those who are young, poor, black, Hispanic or poorly educated." -- Jones RK, Darroch JE and Henshaw SK, Contraceptive use among U.S. women having abortions in 2000-2001, Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2002, 34(6):294-303
Please explain how this statistic is relevant to the discussion.
I was not discussing whether these are valid reasons for having an abortion or not, only that more than very few were the result of using it as birth control. I will reduce the number I quoted to 40% based on your objections, but I still contend it is greater than very, very few.
And here we are going to have problems.
Sometimes, in the heat of passion, younger people will not take the time to use contraception when they normally would. Your repeated pointing to a number which indicates how many used contraception methods at the time ignores the underlying cause of the abortion. None of these are for abortions in leiu of birth co |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 08:39:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Sometimes, in the heat of passion, younger people will not take the time to use contraception when they normally would.
Men and women, who have sex, without using contraception and know that they do not want a child and have an abortion are using abortion as birth control.
quote:
Your repeated pointing to a number which indicates how many used contraception methods at the time ignores the underlying cause of the abortion. None of these are for abortions in leiu of birth control. A lot of them could be attributed to situations changing. Since your sample size is small (1,773 individuals), it is easy to get unrepresentative information. Only your 1987 study gives reasons for why they got the abortion. It is intrinsicly invalid to combine studies decades apart when they are measuring two different questions.
Do you think that reasons for abortions change that much over time? Maybe they have. I have not had time to look for data on that.
We will probably not come to an agreement on this issue. While the reasons behind abortions (birth control, rape, etc.) are important, a better discussion would be how to educate women and men, young and old, on how to prevent pregnancies if they are not wanted. I think most people on both sides of the abortion issue agree that it is better to prevent a pregnancy that will lead to an abortion than for a woman to go through the abortion procedure. I think this is a good start for dialogue between both sides of the issue.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 14:04:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by SciFi Chick
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Keep things in perspective. Birth control side effects are pretty minimal compared to the health risks of pregnancy. Newer versions are much improved over older ones.
Diaphragms work fine if you don't want to mess with hormones.
So far, the extent of my "research" is listening to those commercials where they list all the side effects. Obviously, I will talk to my doctor about the best choice for me when the time comes.
Thanks for the info though.
And in addition to talking to the doc, do your own research on the net. Look for quality research, don't go for anything that isn't evidence based (I know you won't) and don't assume every doctor is expert in everything. So if it is a women's health care specialist, they'll know more than the family practice folks.
Family practice folks know a lot too, so don't get me wrong there, but I know from inside information, blind trust in doctors is misguided. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 14:11:29 [Permalink]
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Preventing unwanted pregnancies would be easier if some folks didn't think abstinence campaigns were the best method.
Using abortion as birth control should be divided into conscious choice vs choice by default. Having unprotected sex doesn't mean one thought it through and said OK I choose abortion as birth control. More likely the person is in denial that pregnancy will happen 'this time'. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2004 : 14:45:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Preventing unwanted pregnancies would be easier if some folks didn't think abstinence campaigns were the best method.
Well, statistically abstinence is the best method of preventing pregnancies, 100% sure (except for Mary I guess ). I feel as parents we need to inform our children of all aspects of sexuality including birth control methods. Any campaigns in our schools to inform kids about birth control should include abstinence as well as other methods, since it is a legitimate form of birth control.
quote:
Using abortion as birth control should be divided into conscious choice vs choice by default. Having unprotected sex doesn't mean one thought it through and said OK I choose abortion as birth control. More likely the person is in denial that pregnancy will happen 'this time'.
By default they did use it as birth control. |
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