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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 08/25/2001 : 10:58:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Who the fuck needs 9 million or 20 million or 30 million dollars a year when so many live in poverty.
This is the principle Tokyo and I disagree on. Many people can work a full schedule for minimum wag and then have the honor of being blasted as lazy because they need welfare. it's worse than unfair. It's criminal. Taxes help to bring out-of-control capitalism under control.
There is one bright spot about a sagging US economy: If the economy goes in the toilet(not much of an if there) there will be less pollution. It will serve us right.
Hey, hold up! What "principle" are you referring to? I want to make sure there isn't a misunderstanding here.
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You shut your mouth, how can you say
I go about things the wrong way?
I am human, and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2001 : 11:20:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Who the fuck needs 9 million or 20 million or 30 million dollars a year when so many live in poverty.
So what do you propose to do? Take their wealth from them by force, and give it out to those in poverty?
If you were granted the sole power to change the world in any way you choose, what would you do?
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You shut your mouth, how can you say
I go about things the wrong way?
I am human, and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2001 : 13:17:35 [Permalink]
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Possibly we just might get another *Great Depression*. Deja Vu.... That was a really bad time to be alive in America.
I wish that we could get an intelligent president for a change. However, considering the combined mentality of the American electorate, that would amount to futile dreaming.
*Nobody ever lost [elections] underestimating the intelligence of the American [voter].* (This would amount to paraphrasing of one of H.L. Mencken's famous statements.)
ljbrs
Perfection Is a State of Growth... |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2001 : 14:59:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
So what do you propose to do? Take their wealth from them by force, and give it out to those in poverty?
If you were granted the sole power to change the world in any way you choose, what would you do?
I would indeed see some of that wealth, that was taken wrongly from the poorer hard working classes, given back.
I think that this is how we try to keep a foot on the brakes of capitalism. If left on its own capitalism would eventually look like the capitalism of the 19th cetury where normal people needed to work 16+ hours a day for nearly nothing. This was before unions helped change that. If left alone long enough, capitalism would probably end up looking more like Europe in the middle ages where the serfs had nothing and the nobility owned everything.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2001 : 15:03:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hey, hold up! What "principle" are you referring to? I want to make sure there isn't a misunderstanding here.
I think that there is a real "American Way" that most Americans are too afraid or too selfish to face. In a world of limited resources, having too much usually means that someone else has too little and Americans do everything they can to maintain that status quo. it's behind all the arguments for world government. It's about wanting to keep all the goodies while millions starve.
That, my friend, is the true American Way. It's not very pretty but I think there's a lot of truth in there.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2001 : 16:45:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that this is how we try to keep a foot on the brakes of capitalism. If left on its own capitalism would eventually look like the capitalism of the 19th cetury where normal people needed to work 16+ hours a day for nearly nothing. This was before unions helped change that. If left alone long enough, capitalism would probably end up looking more like Europe in the middle ages where the serfs had nothing and the nobility owned everything.
@tomic, I've seen unions drive American companies that paid more than fair wages and had excellent benefits packages elsewhere. So unions had their place in equalizing capatilism, however, unions also now can do damage to many companies, (particullarly smaller ones)., driving many of them overseas or out of business.
Neither capatilistic companies nor unions are without fault. But to completely lay the woes of poverty at the feet of a few is a bit ridiculous. There are many local large companies that are begining to sit up and take notice, supplying schools in poorer areas with desparately needed materials. Like maps and books that are actually current. Many educators, with the sucesses of others, are begining to push for local companies to begin to support their poorer area schools.
So you do have to take into consideration the good that some companies are doing. Granted a 9 million bonus or salary are grossly above what may be required, ask your self about the 14 million dollar contract that that quarter back signed for 2 years. Or the 70 million that that movie just pulled down after costs are subtracted. Or the 80 million spent to make that movie. Our society expects these large amounts for these things because we, to some extent, glorify those who are earning these large amounts, we also dream about what we'd do with such large amounts of money. Until social pressure is brought to bear on these grossly differing salaries such things will continue. That's the nature of business, turn a profit. The equalization of monetary distribution should come through the idea of *charity*. (I really wanted a different term but I'm having a slight mental malfunction.) Otherwise, (yes I know this is an Adam Smith concept), people will not strive for reaching a higher level and will become complacent. This was a major problem with communisism (I am talking Marx, not Lenin and Trotsky and Stalin) in the former soviet union. Also, they failed to follow Marx in that they did not have the industrial base before trying communisism as an economic complex.
OK, I'm going to finish this really confused and disorganized rant(?) now.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2001 : 18:55:18 [Permalink]
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I actually agree with you Trish. I think that extremists are necessary on both sides of this but the best outcome is usually somewhere in the middle. I would not want to see a communistic society in the US as little as I would like to see a purely capitalistic society.
The thing about the current administration is that they swung the pendulum too far too the right, too fast and without anything close to a public mandate. Any declaration to the contrary is well...a lie as far as I'm concerned.
I agree that unions can go too far, but any argument that unions just screw up businesses is terribly unfair. Again, it's the see-saw between business and unions that usually get a fairer work environment than would exist if either side had its way completely.
So while I like to identify with the idealism of the far left, I also recongize that the left should never left to run amuck anymore than the right should.
Communism and Capitalism and Socialism and Libertarianism are all ideal models that might work in an ideal society, but such a thing is well....an ideal. Something that can never be but each side strives for and, as I think I said earlier in this post, the best solution for everyone is a society that has the best of those ideals with all sides watching the others to make sure no one gets the upper hand.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2001 : 05:39:19 [Permalink]
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Last Great Depression was only ended by a lot of regulation and very high upper class tax rates (in the 90% area).
Maybe this one will require that same which wouldn't be so bad afterall.
Just as long as one is able to stockpile a few years worth of food and a lot of cash.
Radioactive GM Crops.
Slightly above background.
Safe to eat.
But no activist would dare rip it out.
As they think it gives them cancer. |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2001 : 07:39:01 [Permalink]
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Excuse me but this is a very sore subject for me.
quote:
@tomic, I've seen unions drive American companies that paid more than fair wages and had excellent benefits packages elsewhere. So unions had their place in equalizing capatilism, however, unions also now can do damage to many companies, (particullarly smaller ones)., driving many of them overseas or out of business.
You really have no idea of the state of affairs in the 2nd half of the 19th and 1st half of the 20th century regarding management-labor relations. It is unknown how many people have died during this period so that the American worker could have an 8 hour workday rather than the 14-16 hour day that was standard (6 days a week to boot). Without their sacrifice, there would be no workplace safety regulations. And don't tell me that the companies saw advantage to workplace safety and instituted it themselves because that is a lie. There would be no such thing as health care benefits for any workers.
The deaths and suffering of the early trade unionists in this country have done as much for the personal freedom of the American worker as that of any veteran of a foreign war. So when I see that someone characterizes unions as irrelevant extremists, it's the same as if they said it about WWII vets. You may not agree with everything they say, but they should be given respect for what they have done.
In my experience, blaming unions is just a convenient excuse for corporate incompetance. I have never seen a company go out of business because of anything other than incompetant or greedy management. Companies move overseas not because American workers are so extreme. They do so because 3rd world workers & governments are so compliant. Are you saying that the US government should eliminate the worker safety and environmental rules in place? Should the government outlaw unions? Should they eliminate a minimum wage?
quote:
So what do you propose to do? Take their wealth from them by force, and give it out to those in poverty?
If you were granted the sole power to change the world in any way you choose, what would you do?
I think that these people should be publically made to justify why they make so much by grass roots public awareness. Working people should find out who makes these insane salaries and make it public that other working people are living at the edge of poverty. Maybe next time when the politicians decry helping the poor as "budget busting" and yet want to give billions to corporations, the American people will be pissed off enough to stop them. Maybe then corporations will have to stand on their own and wont be able to pay those ridiculous salaries.
Greg.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2001 : 08:50:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
You really have no idea of the state of affairs in the 2nd half of the 19th and 1st half of the 20th century regarding management-labor relations. It is unknown how many people have died during this period so that the American worker could have an 8 hour workday rather than the 14-16 hour day that was standard (6 days a week to boot). Without their sacrifice, there would be no workplace safety regulations. And don't tell me that the companies saw advantage to workplace safety and instituted it themselves because that is a lie. There would be no such thing as health care benefits for any workers.
The deaths and suffering of the early trade unionists in this country have done as much for the personal freedom of the American worker as that of any veteran of a foreign war. So when I see that someone characterizes unions as irrelevant extremists, it's the same as if they said it about WWII vets. You may not agree with everything they say, but they should be given respect for what they have done.
In my experience, blaming unions is just a convenient excuse for corporate incompetance. I have never seen a company go out of business because of anything other than incompetant or greedy management. Companies move overseas not because American workers are so extreme. They do so because 3rd world workers & governments are so compliant. Are you saying that the US government should eliminate the worker safety and environmental rules in place? Should the government outlaw unions? Should they eliminate a minimum wage
Yes I actually do understand what was happening then and why unions were formed. I am not speaking to unions then, I am speaking to unions now. And you can't expect the union to not have changed in the past one hundred years. Many unions have become very powerful in that time.
Unions at the turn of the century and prior were a very good thing in turning the tide of uncontrolled capitalism in addition to getting laws passed regarding monopolies. I have no problem with unions in that regard.
But some unions have driven smaller single owner companies out of business or out of the country.
I never said that unions are the cause of woes to business or to economic stability in the US. I said 'Neither capatilistic companies nor unions are without fault.'
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2001 : 10:04:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
But some unions have driven smaller single owner companies out of business or out of the country.
I never said that unions are the cause of woes to business or to economic stability in the US. I said 'Neither capatilistic companies nor unions are without fault.'
Let us at least agree that union extremists (whatever that is) are not what we are talking about. That would be arguing against a straw man. I am arguing that companies that move manufacturing overseas do it because they can get away with treating workers and the environment like shit over there, despite what they say about the unions over here.
Greg.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2001 : 12:29:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Let us at least agree that union extremists (whatever that is) are not what we are talking about. That would be arguing against a straw man. I am arguing that companies that move manufacturing overseas do it because they can get away with treating workers and the environment like shit over there, despite what they say about the unions over here.
A good example of this is the US-Mexico border where companies moved only a few miles in order to pay a fraction of what they were paying in wages for the same job.
And let's not forget the big joke about trying to stop illegal immigration when business absolutely loves the fact the people are moving into this country that are terribly excited about making minimum wage.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2001 : 07:25:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
As least under Shrub the US economy may finally collaspe.
I only hope the rest of the world doesn't go down with it.[Bestonnet]
Shrub only runs the White House. Alan Greenspan runs the economy. Stupid he ain't.
(:raig |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
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