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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2004 : 20:23:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Yeah filthy, I look at it like this.
Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam.
G.W. Bush didn't.
'nuff said.
And I'd put it like this:
We have two candidates for a CEO position. One took on a difficult and dangerous job of his own volition; primary documents demonstrate that he showed up and did his work well enough to have garnered significant praise from his bosses. In the time between then and now, he has a record of reasonable if not knock-you-on-your-ass success based on hard work.
As for the other, he landed in a cushy, much safer job through family influence and we can't seem to establish that he even showed up for work when he was supposed to. Since then, he's established a record of serial failure and being bailed out by others.
So, fellow board members (used in the sense of a board of directors, because that's just what function we voters have to perform in elections), which one shall we hire? |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 20:31:33 [Permalink]
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Oh, and about the Purple Heart:
Bill Mauldin received a minor shrapnel wound while in Italy in WWII. The medic who treated him handed him a presentation box containing a Purple Heart. When Mauldin demurred, the medic told him "the rules say that if the enemy draws blood, you get the Purple Heart". He also advised Mauldin that it might help him get demobbed a bit faster at the end of the war and that it would fit nicely into an empty ration box if he wanted to send it home.
At the end of the war, as part of the discharge process, Mauldin found himself answering questions about his injury from an officious second lieutenant, who ended up by saying "they gave you the Purple Heart for that?.
Another GI spoke up from behind him in line.
"Christ, Lieutenant, he didn't make the rules. We take what we're given and we do what we're told."
It's in Mauldin's autobiography, The Brass Ring, which I highly recommend.
I have to wonder what Willie and Joe would have to say to the chickenhawks about this. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 21:48:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
That is a deadly insult to everyone who has ever worn the uniform in the honorable service of his or her country.
To say that I am enraged is beyond understatment!
I think this is how many Vietnam veterans felt when Sen. Kerry testified that they were all war criminals.
Maybe the ones who listened to the 30 sec clip instead of the speech. I am outraged the latest barrage of attacks uses this video but leaves off the beginning of the sentence.
"They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears,....."
Kerry didn't say anything at all like your interpretation. Unfortunately, the distorted version becomes the accepted one.
Here's the preceding paragraph to put the sentence in context and a link to the actual testimony given by Kerry.
quote:
I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears,.....
The testimony was in defense of the veterans involved, not some accusations against them.
Read what factcheck has to say about the distortions in the ad. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/01/2004 21:56:57 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2004 : 22:09:22 [Permalink]
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I missed most of Cheney's speech but after listening to distortion after distortion from Sen. Zell Miller, I doubt I missed anything other than more of the same.
Miller cited Kerry voting against military weapon after weapon. Trouble is, most of those votes were merely against one version of a budget bill vs a different version. Factcheck hasn't reported on it yet but it probably doesn't matter. People believe the stuff if you repeat it often enough no matter how ridiculous.
They went on and on about how Kerry wouldn't fight terrorism, only Bush would. People buy the image without a clue what's in the package.
A different speaker also said the BS claim that Kerry was "the most liberal senator in Congress". When John Stewart of the Daily show asked the Republican campaign manager to say where that 'fact' came from, the guy couldn't say. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 02:44:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think that Kerry's medals are legitimate. The man was there and served with honor. Those who have never 'seen the elephant' have small room to complain.
F, I've never heard that expession before--"seen the elephant." Does that have any particular meaning to Vietnam vets?
I was a bit too young to get drafted, and when I could join up in '76 or '77, they wouldn't take me because of an eyesight problem that never prevented me from doing anything successfully, except find a job. Anyway, I watched that war on TV as a kid and a teenager.
Boy, that Zell Miller--What a card! That speech that keeps screaming from my TV set at 4:30am was something. It was a joke...Wasn't it? That guy reminds me of the old fashioned, stereotypical, sadistic school master. I'm surprised he didn't threaten to beat Kerry, or any Democrat with his lecture rod. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 03:25:22 [Permalink]
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"Seen the elephant" is a term that originated when zoos and circus' first became established in the US. Folks would go to them and, although everybody knew what an elephant was, actually seeing one was awe inspiring and one of the main attractions. "It was like seeing the elephant!" meant being awed and amazed by something. I'm not sure, but I think it was during the Civil War that the term got bastardized such that 'seeing the elephant' meant having a harrowing, life-threatening experience, like getting shot at by angry people whom you've never met.
Since WW II, the term has fallen into disuse, except by surly curmudgeons such as myself.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/02/2004 03:27:40 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 10:09:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
I dare you to find where Kerry said all or even most Vietnam veterans are war criminals. Saying crimes were committed is not the same as saying everyone in the group is a criminal. Even a dullard knows crimes were committed in Vietnam.
I should not have used the word all. From his testimony he indicated that he had knowledge of 150 veterans that committed or saw war crimes. Or should I say 151 since he declared himself a war criminal.
quote:
I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia.
Then he goes on to say that
quote:
These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
and
quote:
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
Where is his proof of widespread war crimes as these? He has 151 people witnessing or took part in war crimes. That does not seem like “day to day” as stated earlier. I think that this exaggeration on his part of how widespread it was angers many of veterans.
quote:
It takes someone with integrity to point it out especially in the face of such criticism for doing it.
People support Kerry because he has the kind of courage and integrity to do such a thing.
If he had that much integrity he would vote in the senate and do his job. Taking money for nothing does not sound like very much integrity to me.
[Long URL turned into this link - Dave W.]
quote:
All that and a war hero to boot. I know a lot of candidates who can only dream of having a resume like that.
It's a scary thought that the flipside of this is people support Bush because his campaign staff is willing to insult every serviceman and woman that has ever served to re-elect a man that defended Texas on weekends except for times he got out of it because he had the right kind of friends.
@
I applaud Kerry's outspoken opposition to the war, I just think that he insulted a lot of servicemen in the |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 10:10:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I missed most of Cheney's speech but after listening to distortion after distortion from Sen. Zell Miller, I doubt I missed anything other than more of the same.
Miller cited Kerry voting against military weapon after weapon. Trouble is, most of those votes were merely against one version of a budget bill vs a different version. Factcheck hasn't reported on it yet but it probably doesn't matter. People believe the stuff if you repeat it often enough no matter how ridiculous.
Actually, Factcheck did point out all the errors in this back when it was a campsign ad (see this article for more).
But the reality is that much of last night was full of lies. Today's Daily Howler lays it all out. Miller lied and so did Cheney. But unfortunately, no one in our press corps said anything about it. Thus, sadly, too many Americans are going to go to the polls with a false notion of what Kerry's done and vote for Bush accordingly.
I am very, very, afraid of what's going to happen in the next four years. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 14:09:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
I dare you to find where Kerry said all or even most Vietnam veterans are war criminals. Saying crimes were committed is not the same as saying everyone in the group is a criminal. Even a dullard knows crimes were committed in Vietnam.
I should not have used the word all. From his testimony he indicated that he had knowledge of 150 veterans that committed or saw war crimes. Or should I say 151 since he declared himself a war criminal.
quote:
I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia.
Then he goes on to say that
quote:
These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
and
quote:
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
Where is his proof of widespread war crimes as these? He has 151 people witnessing or took part in war crimes. That does not seem like “day to day” as stated earlier. I think that this exaggeration on his part of how widespread it was angers many of veterans.
Without knowing much about the whole thing, having 150 witnesses reporting crimes, means having at least a good number of units committing these. If these people were from a number of units in a specific region, I don't think their testimony would have been pointed out as widespread.
The conclusion is drawn that the violence was widespread. This implies to me that the soldiers who testified probably came from a large number of different units, from all over the vietnam region. Another reason for me to think this is the statement that these warcrimes were known to officers at all levels on the chain of command. My guess is that, if the violence was incidental, at some point up the level of command the officers would have interfered.
edited to add: And where do you get that Kerry committed these crimes himself. On reading the testimony linked to, I don't get any indication that John Kerry himself was amongst the people committing the war crimes. Maybe I misread? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 09/02/2004 14:26:35 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 14:22:59 [Permalink]
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| On a second reading of the testimony I'm also wondering why so much weight is placed on the war crimes of which the 150 people testified. It makes up only first two or three paragraphs of the entire testimony. The testimony as a whole does not focus on the war crimes committed by soldiers, but is entirely addressed to the leaders at that time, laying the blame at the administration and the top chain of command and pointing out that the soldiers in Vietnam see the war as pointless. Having read the testimony, I'm wondering very much why the war crimes are put in the forefront that much. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 14:47:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
edited to add: And where do you get that Kerry committed these crimes himself. On reading the testimony linked to, I don't get any indication that John Kerry himself was amongst the people committing the war crimes. Maybe I misread?
From this article.
http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html
quote:
SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare,
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2004 : 15:08:46 [Permalink]
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| Kay, thanks |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2004 : 05:36:01 [Permalink]
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I was rummaging through some of the stuff I've saved for who knows what perverse reason, and found this, little gem. I haven't read it all yet, and probably won't due to an angry ulcer condition. But I'm sure there are those here of stronger stomach than I.
quote:
Before you vote for George Bush, take a close look at his record. Since his first day in office he has worked against the best interests of America. His assaults on the environment -- many of them small enough to escape notice -- have consistently favored corporate profits at the expense of clean air, clean water, and truly healthy forests.
His mismanagement of our economy has driven us into debt of historic magnitude, while turning the gap between rich and poor into a chasm. Tax cuts! Tax cuts! he tells us, in spite of waging terribly expensive wars against two countries, in spite of fighting his mythical "war on terror."
Had George Bush called for an honest debate on these issues, we could have decided whether to have tax cuts, whether to wage war, whether to protect the envrionment. But he has consistently misled us, always promising one thing and delivering another. He calls tax cuts his "jobs and growth package." He calls opening ancient forests to logging his "healthy forest initiative." He says he must wage war to protect us from "the most dangerous weapons known to man." In short, George Bush has lied to us, over and over.
At home, he has ignored issues of importance to women, gays, and the poor. His signature education program relies so heavily on testing that schools can no longer teach what they know best, and since Bush has failed to fund the program sufficiently, many states are raising taxes to meet federal mandates.
Oh, it's a long list, this list of Bush's failures, but here it is:
http://www.thousandreasons.org/newlist.html
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2004 : 09:55:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Robb:
Please do not insult people in the national guard or that are in the reserves by saying that Bush did not serve his country because he was in the National Guard. Feel free to talk about his record in the guard but people in these organizations do an important job. Just ask the families of the people that are over in Iraq.
Nothing wrong with the Guard. What you are missing is that back in the sixties, many of us wanted to not go to Viet Nam for various reasons. Some of us felt that the war was wrong. History has supported that position. But here is the thing. There were several ways to get out of going to Viet Nam. Have a student deferment and protest the war, Go to jail, Go to Canada and protest, Get a great letter from your doctor and protest, fail the physical (on purpose) and protest the war, become a consciences objector (a tough one to prove and I reserve my highest respect for those who pulled that off since it often meant going anyway but serving in an often dangerous support roll) or join the National Guard. The Guard was often the choice of those who were not necessarily against the war but didn't really want to get shot at. Or the choice of those who were classified 1A, cornered, against the war and had to do something to get out of going. I am not saying the Guard was a collection of cowards. Just saying that that choice was the one that would taint you the least if, for example, you planned a career in politics after the war. It often took intervention from well connected people to get you into the Guard at that time because people were sorely needed to relieve troops in Viet Nam. In fact, a few Guardsmen, much to their chagrin, wound up in that nasty war anyway. The Guard was no guarantee you would not have to face "Charley," but it was close. I suspect that Bush falls into the group that didn't want to put his ass on the line as either a war protester or a combatant willing (or maybe not all that willing, but drafted) to serve his country honorably. And while in the Guard he was a party animal, eh? His not showing up for a physical that involved drug testing? Hmmmm. The Guard should not be tainted, you are correct, by the actions of George W. Bush. A coward among their ranks...
There was courage displayed by people on all sides of that conflict. Those who went were no less courageous than those who refused to go based on political reasons. Maybe those who went were more courageous. They did, after all, put themselves in a position of often having to dodge bullets. But we felt that we had a job to do here at home. What exactly were W's convictions? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2004 : 22:02:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm surprised he didn't threaten to beat Kerry, or any Democrat with his lecture rod.
hehe Well, Zell did lay some smack on Chris Mathews (of MSNBC'd HardBall), practically challenged him to a duel, in fact.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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