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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 09/05/2004 : 23:37:03
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FL will be using these badboys across the entire state this year in November. No paper trail (I voted in the primary Aug. 31st) implemented.
I have a bad feeling that these guys: http://www.blackboxvoting.com/
are going to be correct in a big way.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/05/2004 : 23:46:36 [Permalink]
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even the GOP in FL is trying to get voters to vote in ways that don't use the machines....
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/29/State/GOP_flier_questions_n.shtml
All the while good old Jeb is telling everyone in the state that the new machines are reliable. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 03:17:54 [Permalink]
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I don't see the problem. We use e-voting in the Netherlands. Works just fine. Neutral ballots by default and a smaller chance (if any) on miscounts. I'm surprised you guys still use paper ballots over there.
What time period do you live in, the stone age? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 03:56:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
I don't see the problem. We use e-voting in the Netherlands. Works just fine. Neutral ballots by default and a smaller chance (if any) on miscounts. I'm surprised you guys still use paper ballots over there.
What time period do you live in, the stone age?
The problem as I have understood it, is that these electronic voting machines don't work flawlessly, or they have serious security flaws, etc. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 04:59:31 [Permalink]
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As far as I know, we had no problems in the Netherlands. E-voting began scarcely to be used some 6 yrs ago (IIRC) in a few city's as a test (in the elections of the city council). After a few more testruns, they were fully employed in the last national elections (some 2 yrs ago I think, man time goes fast). Best I know this was closely monitored, security was high and no flaws had been detected.
I also remember reading that only a few states in the US won't use e-voting, it will be pretty wide spread. But here I might be wrong. I'll have to read up on it. With proper security measures, I'd say it would be as safe as ballot voting. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 05:19:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
As far as I know, we had no problems in the Netherlands. E-voting began scarcely to be used some 6 yrs ago (IIRC) in a few city's as a test (in the elections of the city council). After a few more testruns, they were fully employed in the last national elections (some 2 yrs ago I think, man time goes fast). Best I know this was closely monitored, security was high and no flaws had been detected.
I also remember reading that only a few states in the US won't use e-voting, it will be pretty wide spread. But here I might be wrong. I'll have to read up on it. With proper security measures, I'd say it would be as safe as ballot voting.
But you don't have Karl Rove and the Republican Party over there!!!!! |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 05:30:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
But you don't have Karl Rove and the Republican Party over there!!!!!
Hmmm, Karl Rove is indeed a factor I did not take into account. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 08:14:22 [Permalink]
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The issues with e-voting are manifold. Read some of the stuff on the site I linked to above.
Alot of the issues could be overcome if they just added a printer at the polling sites and created a hardcopy of the votes cast at the time of their casting. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Skyhawk
New Member
33 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 19:49:50 [Permalink]
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Yeah I read that awhile back. I'm sure that a lot of hackers out there can easily hack the code needed. I heard its a 2 digit code to enter the test mode of the program...so you can load the test votes as actual votes after manipulating the test. Apprently, I was reading on a forums that a programmer was hardlining questions to the private company that makes these machines. But, the spokesperson sucked at answering. It's sad to see that there are no reciepts after a person votes.
Also, it's hilarious that a company thats contracted to make the machines can't even properly code the systems. I mean, just like another guy said (from the forums), all it takes is a 15 year old coding in the voting scheme to give options, count up the votes, and load it onto something like a PDA. Have another programmer encrypt and close it up in one helluva tight metal box. PRESTO! You have a voting machine. The Flash card is also stored inside the PDA so the Flash card can be taken out after voting and loaded onto a computer with tight security. Wow, real hard.
Personally, I can program a voting system in little time. It's not magic. Just make sure the PDA device doesn't have any wireless module.
EDIT: Have you guys heard about a small company in Florida designing voting machines for (I believe) Venezuela? Apprently, they aren't well tested or anything. Another case of e-machines that might lead to disaster. The system needs to be perfected. |
| Edited by - Skyhawk on 09/06/2004 19:52:11 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2004 : 19:55:57 [Permalink]
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It's a serious problem because of the possibility of tampering. Even if the possibility that votes could be tampered with is almost null, as long as the perception exists there will be uncertainty.
The last thing we need, after the mess in 2000, is another election fiasco.
We need a vote count that all parties involved trust. The current e-vote system ain't it. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 05:23:46 [Permalink]
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The Nation has a really good and in depth article on this story. They cover every angle of the issue, though from a "I don't trust those machines primary position." But, it is an interesting and enlightening article. I'd advise everyone to read it. Here's the link:
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 12:40:40 [Permalink]
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Any one who believes in a right-wing conspiracy is clearly a paranoid-schizophrenic who should be locked up in a mental institution and have their voting rights revoked.
Seriously though I'm at work so I can't do a proper search on this and it's driving me crazy that I can't remember where I read/heard this but anyway here it is.
The first part was something about one of the Counties in Florida that used electronic voting during the 2000 election and the final tally had a negative 38,000 votes for Al Gore.
That obviously shouldn't be able to happen and if those votes were added as to the states total that would mean that 38,000 votes were subtracted form Al Gores total.
There was also something about the 2002 elections where a number of republican candidates won “stunning upsets” and that many/most of those districts also used electronic voting machines.
Working in IT I and I'm certain many member of this board realize just how easy it is to manipulate data in computers.
That's one of the major reasons why most companies outsource their payroll system.
And if these incidents are indeed true acts of tampering it is a scary thought.
One think I am certain of and that is that republicans are experts at wrapping themselves in the flag, country and god to get people to vote against their own best interests.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 13:18:04 [Permalink]
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| The only problem is the lack of a record of the votes. For some reason there are folks who dont want one or (cough) "It isnt nessisary"? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 13:24:30 [Permalink]
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IMHO, for any voting system to be genuinely useful, it needs to pass what I call the "Caesar's wife" test- that is, it must not only be above suspicion, it must be seen to be above suspicion.
The old-timey paper ballot has this property. If there's a question about the outcome of an election, it can be unambiguously resolved by re-examining the actual ballots, and, since the only qualification needed to do this is the ability to read, the people who do the recounting can include adherents of every party on the ballot. All you need is people with literacy, reasonable intelligence and a reputation for integrity, and you can find that in every community.
Making any part of the system secret, proprietary or inaccessible to anyone without specialized knowledge is an automatic fail of the C.W. test.
The thing about these electronic voting systems is that the damage has already been done. Adding a voter-verified printout- together with a legal mandate that the physical ballots be the ultimate authority in cases of disputes- would have been enough to provide confidence had it been done at the outset. Now, after all of the revelations of shoddy thinking and possible dishonesty, it seems like a mere Band-Aid, as far as public confidence in the integrity of elections is concerned.
Want to pass the Caesar's wife test with e-voting? Start from scratch and design a system from the ground up with security, verifiability and accountability as the primary specifications, do the whole process subject to public scrutiny- and make it clear to the election bureaucracy that their convenience is not the point of the new system. |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2004 : 14:43:45 [Permalink]
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Thanks Tim
Niether of those is the article I remember but they do show the inherent problems with the current state of electronic voting.
quote:
From CommonDreams article
When asked whether the software could be manipulated from afar, Jekot said “they can be easily manipulated at multiple locations within the process, not just from afar”. Whether the machines were manipulated or not, however, the integrity of the process is in question.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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