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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2004 : 01:37:02
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Michael Tomasky : The sad truth
"It's a socio-psychological fact (if there is such a bird) that liberals tend to want to believe the best about the world, while conservatives see the world in darker, more Hobbesian hues. This, not the fact that they're better human beings, makes liberals less likely to play on voters' fears -- makes them want to believe that they actually can win a campaign on the issues. "
"But the world is the world. Republicans understand the world, and Democrats do not."
Is there any indication that anyone from the Kerry campaign understands what it takes to win?
(Yes it would be nice with an on the issues victory, but I can't see one coming.)
What can be done?
Btw, whats the deal with Nader? Megalomaniac, delusional or just a total cynic?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 02:27:03 [Permalink]
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I think Nadar's lost whatever he might have once had. At this point, I don't see him having much of an influence in this election.
I no longer pay a lot of attention to the polls. I'm coming of the opinion that all of them are slanted in the direction of wishful dreaming.
As for Moose and Squirrel, I think they need borrow a page from the Republican bible and start ripping throats out.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 15:57:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Is there any indication that anyone from the Kerry campaign understands what it takes to win?
(Yes it would be nice with an on the issues victory, but I can't see one coming.)
Do these new campaign statements give you any more hope? quote:
"Dick Cheney has received $2 million in bonuses since taking office," Kerry said. "We need a president and a vice president who won't sacrifice the taxpayers' money on the altar of no-bid cronyism while our fighting men and women go without the armor and equipment they need."
"Nobody here had to sign a loyalty oath to get in here, right?" Kerry asked, to laughter.
http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news04/091704_news_kerry1.shtml
quote:
"He didn't tell you this," Kerry said, even though "his own intelligence officials have warned him for weeks that the mission in Iraq is in serious trouble. That is the hard truth, as hard as it is to bear."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/191243_camp17.html |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2004 : 16:35:25 [Permalink]
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Kerry/Edwards need to just take the gloves off. Shit, I can come up with 5 or 6 inuendo's or falsely suggestive topics about Bush/Cheney in a minute or two.
They should just play the same game, go as negative as they can without actually engaging in slander/libel.
It's a sad statement that this type of campaigning works, but it does work. See McCaine in 2000 GA primary and Cleland in 2002 senate race.
If the dems want in the whitehouse they need to start busting some republican balls. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 08:29:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Btw, whats the deal with Nader? Megalomaniac, delusional or just a total cynic?
Starman, are you suggesting he is any of these things, or are you simply uninformed?
I've met the man, and have heard him speak a number of times. From what I've seen, he is definitely none of the above. I've found him to be quite personable, even funny at times. And he clearly has a better grasp of the nation's problems and its potential solutions than either George W. Bush or John Kerry.
And he treats the voting public like adults. He doesn't make lofty promises, and he doesn't patronize. And while he may be cynical of the two major political parties and their corrupt leadership, he certainly expresses optimism and faith in the American people, especially the youth.
As I've learned more about Ralph Nader, I've actually discovered he's the diametric opposite of all those things you suggested. In fact, he's actually restored my faith in democracy and in my own power to change the world for the better. Regardless of whatever else he manages to accomplish, for that, I'm forever in his debt.
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Paladin |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2004 : 23:57:17 [Permalink]
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I put this post on the other thread and I'm sure you'll read it there too, Paladin. But I have to say the same thing here.
If it were between two corporate candidates and Nader, you might have a point, Paladin. But this election is between one corporate candidate who started a war and one who protested the last really really bad war we were in. Idealistic Nader voters have a right to the candidate they want over the lesser of two evils, but the war, in this case, by far is a more important issue to protest with one's vote than any other issue.
I agree with you Nader is not "Megalomaniac, delusional or just a total cynic". None of those describe him. I'm certain he believes what he says that Bush and Kerry are no different. But I think his idealism has gotten in the way of his objective evaluation of the situation. We didn't know Bush would start the Iraq war. Nader couldn't have known. But now that he does know, he should have spoken out against the war more than any other issue. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 09/18/2004 23:57:46 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 01:37:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paladin
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Btw, whats the deal with Nader? Megalomaniac, delusional or just a total cynic?
Starman, are you suggesting he is any of these things, or are you simply uninformed?
It was a question, but it was the alternatives I found most likely.
Megalomanic - is he so filled with his own importance that he doesn't care about the consequences of his actions?
Delusional - doesn't he understand why the republicans are cheering his effort ?(willful ignorance?)
Total cynic - maybe he doesn' care if he gives Bush 8 years to destroy the economy, the environment, peoples rights and to start wars. He might be aiming for some long term (personal?) gain.
quote:
As I've learned more about Ralph Nader, I've actually discovered he's the diametric opposite of all those things you suggested.
So you found me to be uninformed. Then inform me! How is Nader helping Bush getting elected a good thing? Why would he do it again?
If you like Nader and his politics, cheer him, work for him, sneer at republicans and democrats, but if you care anything about the rest of the world and the people living in it, vote Bush out of office!
quote:
Regardless of whatever else he manages to accomplish, for that, I'm forever in his debt.
Why? Do you work for Haliburton? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 01:46:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
[ agree with you Nader is not "Megalomaniac, delusional or just a total cynic". None of those describe him. I'm certain he believes what he says that Bush and Kerry are no different. But I think his idealism has gotten in the way of his objective evaluation of the situation.
So this isn't delusional? What is it then?
quote:
We didn't know Bush would start the Iraq war. Nader couldn't have known. But now that he does know
This time he has no excuse. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 02:30:54 [Permalink]
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As a life-long Independent, I yearn for the day when I can again vote for a third party candidate. But for now, it's not an option. Now I must choose between Kerry and the foulest piece of feces ever to soil the office. Voting for Nader or anyone else is simply not an option.
But what of Ralph? He's done some great things, no doubt (except for the Covair :scowl:), but I think he's gone 'round the bend. I have no other way to call it, as he is virtually providing support, aid and comfort for an administration that will gleefully tear down everything he's ever built and spit in his face while they're doing it.
Therefore, I must ask: if he hasn't flipped out, has he sold out? And if not, why isn't he doing what he does best; working to the benefit of the American people?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/19/2004 02:33:05 |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 05:54:15 [Permalink]
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I don't like Ralph Nader, and I'm weary of his implying that the Republican and Democratic parties are identical. I've posted links before that show dramatic differences between the parties and show the extent to which Republican parties reward their corporate contributors with legislation favorable to them.
But if you'd like a snippet of it:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0918-04.htm
quote:
Safety Issues in the Workplace
President Bush signed legislation that supported the lobbying efforts of major corporations to repeal the country's first ergonomics standards agreement, a measure that was designed to prevent the more than two million stress injuries, such as carpal tunnel syndrome, that are reported and treated annually. Kerry voted against overturning the ergonomics standard agreement and promised to reinstate it if he is elected president.
Minimum Wage
Bush has maintained since he first took office that he does not support an increase to the federal minimum wage, which, in terms of inflation, is at a 30-year low and vowed to block any effort to increase it. Kerry, according to his campaign website, wants to increase the minimum wage to at least $8.46 an hour, from $5.15 an hour, in order to keep up with inflation.
It's less about where the candidates' contributions come from and more about what those contributions buy.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 13:03:02 [Permalink]
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Good points Renae.
It is a fine line between delusional and perceiving priorities as changing the system over changing the mess we are in, Starman. You could argue delusion, you would have some credibility. I give Nader the benefit of the doubt. People do have the right to vote what they believe. Hopefully enough of them will believe it is more important to get Bush out than to make a statement that will fall on deaf ears anyway. I don't want to worry about Nader being on or off the ballot. I want to convince Nader voters to postpone their ideal government and perhaps vote anti-war this time around. Even if you don't trust Kerry to be anti-war, you know he'll make better decisions than Bush. |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 18:58:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
It was a question, but it was the alternatives I found most likely.
You may have found them most likely, Starman, but I believe you're way off track.
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
...Megalomanic - is he so filled with his own importance that he doesn't care about the consequences of his actions?
On the contrary, I propose that Ralph nader cares deeply about the consequences of his actions, and he cares a great deal about this country and its citizens. Which is why he is running for president against Bush and Kerry.
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
...Delusional - doesn't he understand why the republicans are cheering his effort ?(willful ignorance?)
Of course, he understands why the Republicans are cheering his efforts. He doesn't let their partisanship deter him from doing the right thing any more than the partisanship of the Democrats.
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
...Total cynic - maybe he doesn' care if he gives Bush 8 years to destroy the economy, the environment, peoples rights and to start wars. He might be aiming for some long term (personal?) gain.
Ralph Nader doesn't give George W. Bush anything. As for "destroying the economy, the environment, peoples' rights and start(ing) wars," who do you think had a greater hand in assisting Bush in that regard, Ralph Nader or Democrats in Washington?
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
So you found me to be uninformed. Then inform me! How is Nader helping Bush getting elected a good thing? Why would he do it again?
I never proposed that Ralph Nader was helping Bush get elected, so why are you asking me about that? If that's your belief, then it's up to you to substantiate it, not me.
quote:
Originally posted by Starman
If you like Nader and his politics, cheer him, work for him, sneer at republicans and democrats, but if you care anything about the rest of the world and the people living in it, vote Bush out of office!
quote:
Originally posted by Paladin
Regardless of whatever else he manages to accomplish, for that, I'm forever in his debt.
[quote]Originally posted by Starman
Why? Do you work for Haliburton?
So now who's being cynical? 
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Paladin |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 19:08:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
But what of Ralph? He's done some great things, no doubt (except for the Covair :scowl:), but I think he's gone 'round the bend. I have no other way to call it, as he is virtually providing support, aid and comfort for an administration that will gleefully tear down everything he's ever built and spit in his face while they're doing it.
Therefore, I must ask: if he hasn't flipped out, has he sold out? And if not, why isn't he doing what he does best; working to the benefit of the American people?
Filthy, you've answered your own question. Ralph IS "doing what he does best; working for the benefit of the American people." His political campaigns are merely an extension of his activism. The mission hasn't changed; he continues his fights on behalf of us all outside the electoral realm. His presidential campaigns simply offer him one more battlefield.
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Paladin |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 20:19:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I don't like Ralph Nader, and I'm weary of his implying that the Republican and Democratic parties are identical.
Actually, that's not quite true. He doesn't imply that the two parties are IDENTICAL. But he does seem to find them more similar than not, and where it matters most.
quote:
Originally posted by Renae
I've posted links before that show dramatic differences between the parties and show the extent to which Republican parties reward their corporate contributors with legislation favorable to them.
Since we're examining the influence of corporate contributors, let's take a look at "Cash and Kerry":
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/26/politics/main602454.shtml
Here's some snippets:
"Kerry opposed a 2000 bill that would have stripped $150 million from the Boston "Big Dig" construction project. The bill also would have closed a loophole favorable to the American International Group.
AIG subsequently paid Kerry's way on a trip to Vermont and donated at least $30,000 to a tax-exempt group Kerry used to set up his presidential campaign. Company executives also donated $18,000 to his Senate and presidential campaigns, according to records obtained by the Associated Press.
...At least three times in his Senate career, Kerry has recommended individuals for positions at federal home loan banks just before or after receiving political contributions from the nominees, records show.
In one case, Kerry wrote to the Federal Housing Finance Board to urge the reappointment of a candidate just one day before a Kerry campaign committee received $1,000 from the nominee, the records show."
Or let's consider his relationship with biotech giant Monsanto:
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Kerry-Monsanto-Notmilk2feb04.htm
Or how about his cozy relationship with weapons manufacturers:
http://idaho.indymedia.org/news/2004/07/10308.php
And let's not overlook this examination of his relationship with still other powerful donors:
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11460
And one can only wonder if Kerry will follow through with his promise to "close tax loopholes" for "Benedict Arnold" companies that ship jobs overseas, considering the hundreds of thousands he's taken from them:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4375999/
So if it's "less about where the candidates' contributions come from and more about what those contributions buy," what does Kerry's fund-raising and reciprocation say about him?
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Paladin |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2004 : 20:26:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
...I want to convince Nader voters to postpone their ideal government and perhaps vote anti-war this time around. Even if you don't trust Kerry to be anti-war, you know he'll make better decisions than Bush.
I hope you're correct on that last part, assuming Kerry wins. But, please keep in mind that idealism and pragmatism are NOT mutually exclusive. They're both admirable - and very necessary - qualities. |
Paladin |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2004 : 00:50:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paladin
You may have found them most likely, Starman, but I believe you're way off track.
Bush and Kerry can win this election, Nader can't. So why is he running? What can be gained? What can be lost?
quote:
On the contrary, I propose that Ralph nader cares deeply about the consequences of his actions, and he cares a great deal about this country and its citizens. Which is why he is running for president against Bush and Kerry.
How is Ralph running in and losing the 2004 presidential election helping the country and its citizens?
quote:
Ralph Nader doesn't give George W. Bush anything. As for "destroying the economy, the environment, peoples' rights and start(ing) wars," who do you think had a greater hand in assisting Bush in that regard, Ralph Nader or Democrats in Washington?
Unfortunately when Ralph Nader participated in an election that he had no chance of winning George W Bush became president.
quote:
I never proposed that Ralph Nader was helping Bush get elected, so why are you asking me about that? If that's your belief, then it's up to you to substantiate it, not me.
Do I really have to explain why Nader being on the ballot aids Bush?
Nader 2000 Leaders Organize To Defeat Bush
I agree that he has the right to participate and you (if you are a US citizen) have the right to vote for the candidate of your choice. I do think that you are responsible for how you vote. You can't elect Ralph Nader this time, but you can (depending on where you live ) help to remove W, Cheney, Ashcroft and others from power.)
quote:
Originally posted by Paladin
So now who's being cynical?
Yea, that was out of line, sorry! |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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