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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 09/23/2004 : 08:17:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Paladin
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
...If kerry wins, he will be shunted aside only to be ignored by the Democrats.
Huh?
Context, my friend, context.
quote:
What the hell is Ralph thinking? Can't he see that no matter who wins, he loses? And we lose with him? Politics, whatever party, is a game of paybacks. If kerry wins, he will be shunted aside only to be ignored by the Democrats. If Bush wins, he will be shunted aside only to be shat upon whenever he opens his mouth. What will become of his visions then?
Let us not indulge in quote-mining, hmmm? That is best left to those who have nothing of substance to contribute. I've seen you do a lot better than this.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 09/23/2004 08:19:31 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2004 : 08:42:19 [Permalink]
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New update : http://www.electoral-vote.com/
Bush leads with 273 to 255.
(270 needed)
Nader is a factor * in several states: NV(5), AZ(10), IA(7) and VA(13).
*the state votes would change from Bush to Kerry or a tie, if all Nader votes went to Kerry. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2004 : 09:16:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Starman:
Nader is a factor * in several states: NV(5), AZ(10), IA(7) and VA(13).
*the state votes would change from Bush to Kerry or a tie, if all Nader votes went to Kerry
It comes down to this. These independents suffer from tunnel vision. They refuse to grasp the big picture which may be that while wanting a more progressive government they will be directly responsible for delivering the exact opposite. After the dust settles they will deny any responsibility for Bush being elected, as they did last time. (They had more excuse last time since we really didn't know what this president was going to do, and we thought Gore was going to win...) Again, if the difference is Nader, I will be blaming he and his supporters even as I share much of their idealism...
I have more respect for the republicans. At least they know how to get what they want... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2004 : 10:33:19 [Permalink]
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| Dunno, am torn by this issue, cuz think we, the country, needs a newer, fresher, more responsive approach than either the Democrats, or the Re-hypocritian party can muster. Thou the effects of the birth of such a new party may result in untimely effects, such as posted. So what are we to do, accept the status quo with these two major parties putting their spin on every direction the country attempts.., forever? Or suffer the inconveniences of such an emergence, whenever such a new party should arrive..? We know that there will always be crictal issues to be addressed in every election, and admit to feeling the stakes could not be any higher than this time around, either. As a disillusioned libertarian, damned if I know... |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2004 : 11:53:38 [Permalink]
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| Paladin, you think that there are more than two choices for President, however the reality is there is not....there are only two. You believe that standing on your principles is the right thing to do because a vote for Kerry is still a vote moving us all further to the right (??) albeit a little slower than a vote for Bush. So, at the end of they day your logic will in fact move us to the right faster. Which of course is an illogical thing to do. You believe that voting for Nader makes a statement? I believe voting for Nader does make a statement, a statement which either willfully ignores the reality or is one of ignorance that there are more than two choices. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
| Edited by - astropin on 09/23/2004 18:29:27 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2004 : 12:28:27 [Permalink]
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^^ I agree completely, I would LOVE to vote Nader as I consider him the only decent candidate we've had in 30ish years, BUT I know it will be a vote for nothing.
Unfortunatly if you want to see change, a vote for Kerry is the only way to do it. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 00:43:54 [Permalink]
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What does Naderites do to get into Congress? The Senate? Other positions?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 08:25:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Starman:
What does Naderites do to get into Congress? The Senate? Other positions?
They run for those offices and win... Fact is, they should. Might be a way to build a real base of support.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 09:23:49 [Permalink]
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Haven't seen any info about this.
(Maybe I'm not looking in the right places)
Have Nader been able to get any people elected to such positions? |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Paladin
Skeptic Friend
USA
100 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 20:51:46 [Permalink]
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I'm back again. Sorry my replies have been so sporadic, but I'm having a bit of a time problem, and I must now institute a solution.
As many of you may already know, I'm a volunteer with the Nader campaign in Michigan. I've joined the front lines in a political war to take back our country (USA) from the forces that are corrupting it. It's proving to be a time-consuming task, and one that doesn't allow for many other luxuries, such as spending hours on an internet discussion board debating politics.
While I believe this topic is vitally important and worthy of discussion, I believe the current debate here in the Skeptic Forums has reached that inevitable point where every possible argument of significance has already been introduced and examined. I admit I've only scanned the most recent replies, but I'm beginning to see more repetition of points that have already been made. And any replies I may offer in rebuttal would likewise start to sound familiar.
At this point, I suspect any time I may spend offering additional (and most likely, repetitive) commentary could be better spent meeting my obligations to the campaign, in which I've already begun to fall behind. There are many dedicated, hard-working people in our movement who are depending upon me, and the last thing I want to do is let them down. Nor do I want to let my country down.
Thus, I'm going to bow out of this discussion and get back to work. Hopefully, I'll have the sense to stay away until after the election, for I know that, if somebody lays down yet another gauntlet, I won't be able to resist picking it up. And I'd lose yet another week of valuable time.
I realize that most - perhaps all - who've read my comments here already have their minds firmly made up. In their minds, Ralph Nader is either an egomaniac, a megalomaniac, a spoiler, a narcisist, a cynic, a 'suicide-bomber', a vendettist, a hypocrite, a traitor, an authoritarian, a madman, or a Republican stooge. And those are just the ones I've seen and heard.
But I also realize that many of you who share the "anybody but Bush" philosophy haven't really heard the other side. I only hope that I've offered a reasonable explanation of why we Nader supporters are so firmly committed to his candidacy and platform. I hope I've demonstrated that we're not wild-eyed zealots on a mission to destroy democracy or, as some of you have rather shamelessly suggested, Bush operatives. We love our country just as much as you, and we won't give up fighting for it just because others insist their way is better.
Still, if anyone has any questions that I haven't yet answered that they feel MUST have a reply, then please feel free to e-mail me at the address below, and I'll do my best to get back to you:
paladin@dmci.net
Please include something about "Nader" or "Skeptic Friends" or something similar in the title. Otherwise, I'll think it's just more spam and zap it into oblivion.
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p.s: One more note before I go: I'd like to encourage everyone to participate in the upcoming "Million Worker March" in Washington DC on Sunday, October 17. I hope to see you there! 
http://www.millionworkermarch.org/index.php
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2004 : 23:36:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I hope I've demonstrated that we're not wild-eyed zealots on a mission to destroy democracy or, as some of you have rather shamelessly suggested, Bush operatives. We love our country just as much as you, and we won't give up fighting for it just because others insist their way is better.
Well, answer this question.
What are the consequences of G.W. Bush being the president for another four years?
The consequence of voting for Nader is clear. You'll be helping G.W. Bush get re-elected.
Just remember that you have to live with the consequences of your actions, not the intentions. If you're OK with helping Bush get elected.... then by all means, vote Nader. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2004 : 03:31:25 [Permalink]
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Palidin, wishing luck with your endevor, although at the moment, I still think it's misguided. I'd be delighted to be proven wrong. Again.
From Kil:
quote:
They run for those offices and win... Fact is, they should. Might be a way to build a real base of support.
I strongly agree with this. You don't take a hand without an anti. It would be far better if Naderites were already in office and building a solid reputation before betting into the big pot.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2004 : 03:44:16 [Permalink]
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| What state are you in Paladin? There are some folks trading votes. Someone in a state Kerry is way ahead will vote for Nader for someone who wants to vote for Nader but is in a close race state. In exchange the person in the swing state can trade votes and vote for Kerry. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2004 : 22:33:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
What state are you in Paladin?
quote:
Originally posted by Paladin
I'm a volunteer with the Nader campaign in Michigan.
Michigan is led by Kerry according to polls. Close though.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2004 : 02:47:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
What state are you in Paladin?
quote:
Originally posted by Paladin
I'm a volunteer with the Nader campaign in Michigan.
Michigan is led by Kerry according to polls. Close though.
If it gets real close in Michigan and Kerry stays ahead in WA, I'll trade you a vote, Paladin. |
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