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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
 Posted - 01/10/2005 : 12:28:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
(which states clearly that energy disperses rapidly) is why I call you ignorant. You refuse to acknowledge that you don't really know the first thing about energy.
O.K. so it disperses. Have we measured to see if on dispersment around murder scenes or suicides that it does not linger? No. I doubt it. How can we measure? So then should I just apply the simpliest answer? Phenomenon does not exist? No that would be ignorant!!!! I am looking to natural explanations to real phenomenon Dude!!!!
quote:
I don't want to be mean to you Storm, and I'm trying to not be
I think you are? You compare my thinking to Verlch. but yet I am not remotely agreeing with something like the Branch Dividians. Shit Dude Give me a break!!!!! |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 16:10:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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This statement by you demonstrates a profound ignorance of even basic knowledge concerning energy
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Why? You tell me why? With your knowledge of energy! Why does not what I said seem plausabile!!!!!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
Entropy. The Second Law of Thermodynamics. That is why your energy fantasy is implausible.
Boil a pot of water, turn off the heat, and then let it sit overnight. In the morning the water will be at room temperature. Try to find the energy that left the water. You can't. It is at equilibrium with your kitchen. Let the pot of water sit there. See if the heat spontaneously returns to the water and warms it again above ambient temperature. It won't. Ever. No matter how long you wait.
Do you see the parallel to your ghost supposition? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 17:01:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
O.K. so it disperses. Have we measured to see if on dispersment around murder scenes or suicides that it does not linger? No. I doubt it. How can we measure? So then should I just apply the simpliest answer? Phenomenon does not exist? No that would be ignorant!!!! I am looking to natural explanations to real phenomenon Dude!!!!
First, you have to provide evidence for several of the assumtions that you make here. I'll list a few.
1. That humans posses "energy" beyond that generated in the normal functioning of biological systems.
2. That this enegry is in some way detectable via controlled experimentation.
3. That this energy does not follow the observed rules that all other energy we have observed follows.
And maybe you should just start with THIS one....
4. That your "phenomenon" exist anywhere other than inside your imagination.
We've gone over this repeatedly in multiple threads. You continously refuse to acknowledge evidence contrary to your belief, you refuse to apply critical thinking, logic, and scientific method to your observations. You will NEVER be taken seriously by any nonwoo-woo unless you do.
quote:
You compare my thinking to Verlch. but yet I am not remotely agreeing with something like the Branch Dividians. Shit Dude Give me a break!!!!
There is a distinction here you fail to grasp, I think. I'm not saying that you agree with verlch or hold similair opinions. I'm saying that on a fundamental level you think like him.
You ignore evidence. So does verlch.
You refuse to apply critical thinking, logic, and scientific method to your observations. So does verlch.
You believe things to be real for which you can provide no evidence. So does verlch.
None of those things mean that you are a religios fanatic on par with verlch, which is what you seem to think I'm saying.
And no break! Ignorance must be fought.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 17:03:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
O.K. so it disperses. Have we measured to see if on dispersment around murder scenes or suicides that it does not linger? No. I doubt it. How can we measure? So then should I just apply the simpliest answer? Phenomenon does not exist? No that would be ignorant!!!! I am looking to natural explanations to real phenomenon Dude!!!!
The rules of physics and the behavior of energy is applicable in all situations. You keep insisting that someone should measure the "energy" of a suicide or murder victim at the moment of death, as if that is the next logical step in proving your "theory."
It isn't. As others have tried to tell you, there are ways to test your more basic assumptions. For instance, why would a person's emotional state have any impact on energy? Perhaps you could devise an experiment to see whether a pot of water boils faster for people who calmly sing to it or shout at it in anger.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/10/2005 17:04:24 |
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verlch
SFN Regular
781 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 17:08:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
You ignore evidence. So does verlch.
You refuse to apply critical thinking, logic, and scientific method to your observations. So does verlch.
You believe things to be real for which you can provide no evidence. So does verlch.
None of those things mean that you are a religios fanatic on par with verlch, which is what you seem to think I'm saying.
And no break! Ignorance must be fought.
[/quote]
Igonrance? there is no direct evidence of evolving from monkies. You think you are at the top of the universe, with no power higher than you, on a little tiny planet in a remote galaxy. I claim you are important to your Maker, you claim we are too tiny. Yet with all this tinyness going around we are the highest power in the universe no doubt about it.
You don't even question your evolutionary trail to the great mino's of the sea. I mean come on, you have to believe in eviloution, in order to be the highest life form in the universe! Yeah, your a genius and geniuses should never be fought or questioned... |
What came first the chicken or the egg?
How do plants exist without bugs in the soil, and bugs in the soil without plants producing oxygen?
There are no atheists in foxholes
Underlying the evolutionary theory is not just the classic "stuff" of science — conclusions arrived at through prolonged observation and experimentation. Evolution is first an atheistic, materialistic world view. In other words, the primary reason for its acceptance has little to do with the evidence for or against it. Evolution is accepted because men are atheists by faith and thus interpret the evidence to cor-respond to their naturalistic philosophy.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. II Timothy 4:3,4
II Thess. 2:11 And for this cause God shall
send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
You can not see the 'wind', but you can see its effect!!!!
Evolution was caused by genetic mistakes at each stage?
Radical Evolution has 500 million years to find fossils of fictional drawings of (hard core)missing links, yet they find none.
We have not seen such moral darkness since the dark ages, coencides with
teaching evolution in schools. (Moral darkness)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, EPH 6:12.
"Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: "We should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations."
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 17:15:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Igonrance? there is no direct evidence of evolving from monkies.
And you so kindly demonstrate your TOTAL ignorance, yet again, as you have done countless times here, about the ToE.
Thank you for driving my point home with that bit of evidence verlch.
Maybe one of these days you will bother to learn the concept of common decent, rather than the straw-man bullshit about monkies that you are so fond of. The evidence in support of common decent is staggering in it's volume. You chose to ignore all of it.
Your ignorance stands unparalleled on the SFN. (though some do come close)
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 17:25:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
You ignore evidence. So does verlch.
You refuse to apply critical thinking, logic, and scientific method to your observations. So does verlch.
You believe things to be real for which you can provide no evidence. So does verlch.
None of those things mean that you are a religios fanatic on par with verlch, which is what you seem to think I'm saying.
And no break! Ignorance must be fought.
quote:
Igonrance? there is no direct evidence of evolving from monkies. You think you are at the top of the universe, with no power higher than you, on a little tiny planet in a remote galaxy. I claim you are important to your Maker, you claim we are too tiny. Yet with all this tinyness going around we are the highest power in the universe no doubt about it.
You don't even question your evolutionary trail to the great mino's of the sea. I mean come on, you have to believe in eviloution, in order to be the highest life form in the universe! Yeah, your a genius and geniuses should never be fought or questioned...
Again with the straw men. There's enough straw here to stuff a dead elephant.
I PISS NAPLAM ALL OVER ON YOUR STRAW MEN!!
When are you going to quit blithering and present something solid to back up your bullshit? Or better still, when are you going to dig the bullshit out of your brain and make a little room for factual information?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 18:20:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Boil a pot of water, turn off the heat, and then let it sit overnight. In the morning the water will be at room temperature. Try to find the energy that left the water. You can't. It is at equilibrium with your kitchen. Let the pot of water sit there. See if the heat spontaneously returns to the water and warms it again above ambient temperature. It won't. Ever. No matter how long you wait.
How can we compare humans or even animals to boiling water
We have a distinct force.... Call it our fuckin brains, or, consciousness, intelligence, whatever, gentlemen the fact is we are differnt from boiling water... If it was the same mechanism as boiling water took to heat, disperse, whatever.. then we too would be boiling water or dispersed energy that does not linger, but we are not!!!!! We are a unique species.. . If heat can boil water. How do we not Know that emotions do not effect our energy? We know stress can effect the body? Maybe upon death like a murder or suicide the energy is disperesed in one big explosion. Kinda like the boilling water... If you boil water and leave on the stove, then turn the heat off the heat does linger... So why can't we... Remember we are not boiling water..
quote:
The rules of physics and the behavior of energy is applicable in all situations. You keep insisting that someone should measure the "energy" of a suicide or murder victim at the moment of death, as if that is the next logical step in proving your "theory."
Why could it not be the next step? Other than the fact that it would be hard to measure? So in all reality we do not know if this happens at death? but that does not mean I ignore evidence, Yes ancedotal evidence but that is not all, there is more, just because an answer does not fit for this phenomenon than I shall not resort to the simpliest explanation of in my imagination It's not in all in more than half the populations mind. That is a cop out answer....
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 19:00:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Why could it not be the next step? Other than the fact that it would be hard to measure? So in all reality we do not know if this happens at death?
Yes, because it is nearly impossible to measure, and there are other ways to test your assumptions rather than protest that no one yet has accomplished the nearly impossible.quote:
...but that does not mean I ignore evidence, Yes ancedotal evidence but that is not all, there is more, just because an answer does not fit for this phenomenon than I shall not resort to the simpliest explanation of in my imagination It's not in all in more than half the populations mind. That is a cop out answer....
Why is it a cop out answer? Do you have any idea how complex the human brain is? Do you have even the slightest inkling how the brain processes binocular visual perception into cognitive perception? Do you honestly think think there is only one type of misperception--that someone is either crazy and hallucinating or sane and saw something real?
It ain't that simple--far from "the simplest explanation." There are literally thousands of factors in any single moment that could alter an individuals perception, including but not limited to their internal mental state and external environmental factors. Anyone can fall prey to an optical illusion, they don't have to be crazy. That you haven't devoted any time to considering the myriad of ways the human nervous system can be tricked into perceiving something which isn't there shows, once again, your bias and lack of integrity. You would like to simply sweep it all away with a brush of your hand, ignore it, and continue to claim that something (which you cannot even define) does exist. That's plain lazy, Storm. You just want to believe. That's all you have in the end. An unshakable, unsupported, close-minded faith in these things.
You are never going to make any progress until you abandon your assumptions and make an honest attempt to understand what is really happening on an individual, case-by-case basis.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 01/10/2005 19:04:23 |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 19:47:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
That you haven't devoted any time to considering the myriad of ways the human nervous system can be tricked into perceiving something which isn't there shows, once again, your bias and lack of integrity. You would like to simply sweep it all away with a brush of your hand, ignore it, and continue to claim that something (which you cannot even define) does exist. That's plain lazy, Storm. You just want to believe. That's all you have in the end. An unshakable, unsupported, close-minded faith in these things.
Bullshit!! I have considered many intricate aspects of what I propose!!!
Ghostly phenomenon is somewhat repetitive though? So much so the phenomenon is put into categories...So many experiences encounters, but yet many have similar undertones, postmortem apparitions, residual hauntings, crisis apparitions. Have you heard of George M. Tyrrell? He helped toward classifying phenomenon. Mathemitician,engineer, he suggested that human personality underwent varying amounts of disintegration after death, and it was these fragments that lead to ghostly phenomenon. Don't call me Lazy!!!
Do I want to believe yes we all do. But that does not mean I automatically do. There are others who think how I do. Some very notable people. Like Tyrrell, Podomore, Myers. Do you know of these men? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 20:53:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
How can we compare humans or even animals to boiling water
We have a distinct force.... Call it our fuckin brains, or, consciousness, intelligence, whatever, gentlemen the fact is we are differnt from boiling water...
That we are intelligent has absolutely no bearing on whether or not our bodies and brains obey the laws of physics which apply to everything else, including animals without brains (and even to boiling pots of water).quote:
If it was the same mechanism as boiling water took to heat, disperse, whatever.. then we too would be boiling water or dispersed energy that does not linger, but we are not!!!!!
Storm, your body is busy dispersing heat every moment of the day. It changes chemical energy (food) into work (typing a post at the SFN), but since it's not 100% efficient at doing so, the wasted portion gets shed as heat.quote:
We are a unique species.. .
Irrelevant.quote:
If heat can boil water. How do we not Know that emotions do not effect our energy?
That's up to you to demonstrate. But since you cannot even define 'energy', you will always fail to demonstrate it.quote:
We know stress can effect the body?
Indeed, because the brain is also in control of hormones which can affect the other organs, all according to physical laws which do not change the consistency or dispersibility of any 'energy'.quote:
Maybe upon death like a murder or suicide the energy is disperesed in one big explosion.
Then we should find evidence of explosions at murder or suicide scenes... all of them, not just the ones involving bombs or guns.quote:
Kinda like the boilling water... If you boil water and leave on the stove, then turn the heat off the heat does linger... So why can't we...
Indeed, heat does linger, and we know how through its study. We know, for example, that the temperature of a dead person's liver is related to how long it's been since the person died. How a person died doesn't affect this measurment.quote:
Remember we are not boiling water..
No, but we can measure boiling water and predict its decline in temperature over time. We can do the same with dead humans.quote:
Why could it not be the next step? Other than the fact that it would be hard to measure? So in all reality we do not know if this happens at death?
The laws of physics tell us that it should not happen. That is the hurdle you must jump, Storm. Suggesting it's possible is easy. Actually demonstrating the existence of a new form of energy (or a new field of physics) is what your "next step" is.
I would suggest, after you define 'energy' and prove its existence, to start with lab rats. Kill some with a nice, non-violent and peaceful method (hypoxia might work), and kill the rest with an axe. Measure their 'energy' before and after on each one dies. After all, given your hypothesis, there's no good reason to think that rats should be less susceptible to this 'phenomenon' than humans. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2005 : 22:15:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
We have a distinct force.... Call it our fuckin brains, or, consciousness, intelligence, whatever, gentlemen the fact is we are differnt from boiling water...
The energy made and used by our biological systems, the very same ones that supply energy to the brain, follows the exact same rules as the energy used to heat a pot of water.
quote:
So in all reality we do not know if this happens at death? but that does not mean I ignore evidence,
You do ignore evidence. You ignore all evidence and observation of energy in favor of your desire to believe that your woo-woo energy "lingers". And you have the audacity to say that you don't ignore evidence.... fercryinoutloud!
quote:
Yes ancedotal evidence but that is not all, there is more, just because an answer does not fit for this phenomenon than I shall not resort to the simpliest explanation of in my imagination It's not in all in more than half the populations mind. That is a cop out answer....
Just because alot of people believe something, doesn't make it true. This is a logical fallacy. I thought you said you were reading up on some of this stuff?
But yes, until you can provide verifiable and repeatable evidence and support that your evidence demonstrates what you claim it does, then all you have are unsupported assertions. i.e. Your imaginary experiences.
As far as a cop out... it is you, Storm, who is coping out. Did you know that the winner of the 1970 Nobel Prize for medicine or physiology, Dr. Axelrod PhD earned his PhD at age 42? (and that was in 1955) It is NEVER to late to seek education.
I've said it to you before, just a few posts ago, that you will never be taken seriously unless you decide to become serious. Educate yourself in physics, then build upon the knowledgebase we have. I 100% guarantee you a Nobel Prize if you could provide acceptable evidence that ANY type of energy "lingers" rather than disperses. You'll cause a fundamental shift in EVERY physical science. You'll become extrodiarily wealthy (as the applications of "lingering" energy would be highly valuable, I'm talkin trillions of dollars as your discovery would change the economy of every nation in the world). You'd singlehandedly restructure the entire world. You'll become more well known than Einstein, Borh, Shrodinger, Heisenberg, Bell, et.al. COMBINED!
Seriiusly. I'm not joking.
quote:
Have you heard of George M. Tyrrell? He helped toward classifying phenomenon. Mathemitician,engineer, he suggested that human personality underwent varying amounts of disintegration after death, and it was these fragments that lead to ghostly phenomenon.
Logical fallacy, again. This time false appeal to authority. For an individual to be a credible source, their credentials must support the subject about which they are speaking. Then one must ask, what evidence did Mr Tyrrell provide to support his claims? What expiriments did he perform to gather his evidence? Has anyone replicated his expiriments? ect...
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2005 : 08:18:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by verlch
quote:
You ignore evidence. So does verlch.
You refuse to apply critical thinking, logic, and scientific method to your observations. So does verlch.
You believe things to be real for which you can provide no evidence. So does verlch.
None of those things mean that you are a religios fanatic on par with verlch, which is what you seem to think I'm saying.
And no break! Ignorance must be fought.
Igonrance? there is no direct evidence of evolving from monkies. You think you are at the top of the universe, with no power higher than you, on a little tiny planet in a remote galaxy. I claim you are important to your Maker, you claim we are too tiny. Yet with all this tinyness going around we are the highest power in the universe no doubt about it.
You don't even question your evolutionary trail to the great mino's of the sea. I mean come on, you have to believe in eviloution, in order to be the highest life form in the universe! Yeah, your a genius and geniuses should never be fought or questioned...
And yet more deliberate lack of reading of people's posts and mistatements of people's positions.
1) We are the highest evolved mammals on this planet, not the universe. (The dolphins may disagree) We have not searched the entire universe for life, therefore we cannot make any such assumption.
2) Your insistance that we immediately fall on our faces and recognize as Lord your theological construct is illogical and arrogant. (Much like your attitude towards women)
3) No one has challenged your concept of God. What we have done is point out inconsistancies between what you say God is and the book which you claim says these things about God.
4) You believe that humans are the highest non-diety life form in the universe, obviously you are an evolutionist because you think this way. Do you see what a crock of shit that whole premise is?
5) Dude makes no such claim that he is a genius or that geniuses cannot be questioned.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 01/11/2005 08:22:38 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2005 : 09:07:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
1) We are the highest evolved mammals on this planet...
Where did this strange claim come from?  |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2005 : 11:43:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
1) We are the highest evolved mammals on this planet...
Where did this strange claim come from?
From my ass. It is widely believed and something verlch might accept. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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