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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
 Posted - 11/02/2004 : 21:18:26 [Permalink]
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Hello Lapcus.
I have not since voiced an opinion in this folder, as I did thoroughly enjoy keeping up with everything. I would like to mention a few personal objections I have that also intricate themselves with the whole debate I have read.
You're far too conceited, I think, and I first noticed this in your post that you stated, "We are the elite..." and have been reaffirmed in the following posts you've made. If I wanted to take the time, I'd point out many more instances, however, you'll either be satisfied with this one or not at all, either way, I truly have no cares. But to put it plainly, I don't think I'll ever see your fortune profile in Fortune 500 for your wise ideas in "investing" in PIPS (and I understand you've said you do not want lavishing fortune but a comfortable, "work-free" lifestyle, correct, making my Fortune 500 ideal a bit bizarre? Of course you did not say this directly, but in any means, I firmly believe PIPS will not take you there). You may claim many people have made money, but I have been confirmed in my own opinion that the people that may have made money are making the money off of those that are investing now and those that will continue to invest, with money which will not be returned to them.
Furthermore, you are the one that openly denies evidence presented to you. That is why the "skeptics" here associate you with the same tactics used by religious fanatics. I prefer to keep an open mind, and being that I have not yet posted in this thread, I wanted to get a good hold of what was going on. You were the one that posted most enthusiastically (in my opinion) and obviously most fervently in support of PIPS. Therefore, you would be subject to most crossfire. You support one side of the argument, so to speak, this is true, the argument supporting PIPS. Whether or not you wish to recruit us, you are in support of PIPS. Now show us why. Your links smell of advertisement. I can't read pages of advertisement like I can't watch 5 minutes of ads on the TV. I'm sure you can understand. You will say you have shown us why, but if you want to prove anything, you will have to speak your points directly, not provide us with volumes of advertisements like you have been to a certain few. I understand you claim these pools of information you provided to a certain few were *not* advertisements, but I've been bombarded with advertisements my entire life and can't shake the feeling that they are, so please provide alternatives. Post the answers to questions in your OWN words, please*. You may notice that our rebuttals are spoken plainly and understandably. For instance, "Many PONZI schemes and MLM's can last for many years, therefore, the undisclosed duration of time in which PIPS has lasted is not evident enough to support your argument," "The 2% return investment is completely unrealistic; the numbers have been provided," and so on. I realize your posts have been typed by you, but tell me that you typed this "40 pages of information" that you sent to one of the members. I want, like the rest, you to have your defenses set clearly. Objectively. Understandably. Otherwise, you will not be given credit for doing so. This may seem close-minded to you, but it makes sense to me.
You tell them you will beat them at our their "game," if an everyday debate to you is some form of game, which I agree, can be. Yet it is not of good idea to give away your strategy in doing so, but I'll give you one and perhaps it will be the strategy you've had in mind, and if so, will eliminate much futher discussion- the only hope you have in "beating them" would be to have a short post full of information they've been requesting and assuring this community the information provided is legitimate and legitimate in OUR terms, which means, convincing, direct, and reasonable, answers that leave no questions blank, and if anyone else would like to add to this definition, please do, as I left much room for individual alteration. If you do so, I'm sure that the people you have been debating will politely thank you for the information and admit that PIPS is legitimate.
*I will leave the question-asking to the group, as they have more knowledge of investment companies than I.
Edited for spell check |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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| Edited by - satans_mom on 11/02/2004 21:23:14 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 21:26:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PIPS-PureInvestor
Greetings,
I know, this is the skeptics corner, but in doing a search, I happened upon this PIPS-PureInvestor.com topic and I could not resist posting. First, it is great to be skeptic, but I can tell you from years of experience as a risk taker and gambler, the only ones who become wealthy are those who take the calculated risks. Not everyone is a risk taker, I agree, and I have great respect for being skeptical, but what all skeptics are is uninformed, or worse, someone who got burned once and who is now slanted.
Ah, so our sketicism is a result either of or ignorance or emotional damage. Please, I hope you've come here to inform/heal us.
quote:
Yes, I am a skeptic until I do my due diligence, but once I have, I will take the calculated risks it takes to make it is this world. No risk, no reward, and this has been true since the beginning of time. As far as PIPS-PureInvestor goes, it is not a ponzi, and unless you researched it more thoroughly, you would not know what I know, so please don't label anything a ponzi unless you do your own DD first.
If we were planning to invest, we would probably research it more thoroughly. I'm glad you have. Perhaps you could fill us in on the particulars?
quote:
There are many financial intruments where one could earn 20% or more a day, but most people are not savy enough to know this, so they take the easy short cut and remain skeptical.
I admit it, I'm not savy enough. What "financial instruments" can earn one 20% a day apart from usury?
quote:
Agreed, it is far easier to be a skeptic than and entrepreneur who takes risks all the time, but please folks, as I respect those who have skeptical attitudes, so must you respect those who are the educated risk takers. There is enough room in the world for both of us, so all I say is live and learn.
Yes. "Some people are afraid of success" is another good line to throw out there. Or "No risk, no reward." Oh, wait never mind, you already used that cliche earlier. Personally, if one had the knowledge and was educated enough to know something was a "sure thing," I think earning 20% a day would be far easier than not doing so. In fact, I think most of us would. It's the whole "PIPS promises more earnings than is possible to maintain" part that hangs me up.
quote:
I could care less if you never research PIPS-PureInvestor as there is no incentive of any value to me one way or another. PIPS is not an MLM, nor does it reward those who bring in others on multi-levels. There is only a $10.00 referral fee paid like with thousands of other affiliate programs on the internet and I donate it to worthy causes anyway.
But if PIPS is a ponzi scheme, it would require a continuous flow of people paying into the pool in order for you to profit. That isn't an accusation, just a consideration. The fact that PIPS isn't a MLM scam is irrelevant, and so I wonder why you would throw it out there.
quote:
All income earned comes from a diverse portfolio of investments, as well as from 11 different brick and mortar businesses such as franchising, entertainment, fashions, real estate, venture capital and property management, just to name a few.
So many industries and companies, and yet not a single name! Any business with names and addresses we could get a information on? One company we could check with our better business bureau about?
quote:
I have done my due diligence and visited offices, talked with CEO face to face, so I am no longer the least bit skeptical.
You might not still be skeptical, but I am. A scam artist will often spend money if he stands to swindle even more. In one case, the scammers even paid to fly a Florida man all the way out to the Persian Gulf, where they then convinced him to invest further funds, which he lost. It isn't wise to trust anything which PIPS retains absolute control over, including office visits to what could very well be a front. That's why our requests for 3rd party verfication are of the utmost importance, and why we remain skeptical of your motives for not providing such verification.
quote:
In fact, I have been paid for almost 19 months as promised and am very well off because of PIPS. This does not mean there was and is no risk, it simple means there is managed risk, in fact, very well managed. Good luck, Mike.
Or it could mean that you've been lucky, or are an accomplice. A true skeptic considers all the angles.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/05/2004 20:53:37 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 22:08:58 [Permalink]
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Lapcus wrote:quote:
Lapcus- you do it...so why can't I?....
Well, gee, you appeared to say something to the effect of not being trustworthy was bad. If you go ahead and be dishonest at the same time, you're being a hypocrite.quote:
remeber Im playing the "game" on "your" terms and will beat you at your own game.
You're not playing the "game" on my terms at all. You show a clear disregard for "my" terms.quote:
Lapcus- Lets talk about the evidence i have put forth and your wholly rejection and refusal to even look into it....( yea im painting with a broad brush)
Oh, I should do your homework for you? I should "look into" your evidence? Why can't you just lay it out plainly, for all to see. Make a clear-cut case for PIPS, and I'll be glad to believe.quote:
.....as far as you being happy with me failing.....well do you see the 5000+ views to this forum?.....alot of those viewers say otherwise...they say that im making you all look foolish....by thier standards im winning.
Where is your evidence that "alot of those viewers say otherwise"? Are they the same people getting here from Web searches for "PIPS scam"?quote:
Lapcus- first off im not a spokesman for PIPS and second of all I have sent evedience and you all blindly and willingly ingore it..
This is simply untrue. People here have told you why what's been presented is not acceptable as evidence of legitimacy. You can call such pointed remarks "blind" if you want, but you're wrong.quote:
..funny thing is....no one has sent any evidence that PIPS is not legit....only hearsay...uneducated speculation...gut feelings and wishful thinking....
Apparently, you completely missed the point that it is up to the claimant to present positive evidence. It is not the responsibility of the wary to prove PIPS wrong, it's up to you to provide evidence of legitimacy.quote:
this is the best you can do to retract your previous statment??
come clean man...come clean....
Please, why don't you just go ahead and tell me how I'm wrong.quote:
Im up to making over $1800 a week now.....since I am making serious money from this....id say yes it is up to you to prove to me that the money im making is fake...and from a scam....
This is nothing but a couple of strawman arguments. Nobody here has claimed that the money is fake. Nobody here has claimed it's impossible to make money from a scam. Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact, since if scams didn't make somebody money, nobody would scam anyone.quote:
Lapcus- Ive said how long its been around a few times...and posted links to it....i know how long it has been in existance....but...im not going to tell you....get off your lazy buttocks and go find it out for yourself...I am not going to spoon feed you...
By my count, you typed a hell of a lot more than "XX years" in the above "response" to my simple and direct query. Do you really enjoy wasting time like that?quote:
Lapcus- and your point is?? I didnt come here and tell people not to invest....since you have dubed me the "spokes person of PIPS" i can use the word "reject" as much as i want....its certianly not in referance to telling people to "reject" something that they know nothing about.
Apparently, you have missed the point of the "game" completely. I feel sorry for you.quote:
Lapcus- dont play stupid ..the word "reject" is not on trial here...its telling people to "reject" something that was the heart of my argument...shall a use a different word then....how about .."not invest"...or "don't send then nothing" .....
Okay, now you get the point. How'd you miss it, above?quote:
Lapcus- are you sure??...you have said "I don't think "
Only fools are positive.quote:
Have manuvered and weaved threw this debate...like a politician you have danced around..from one subject to another.....when someone calls you on it...you change the subject or change to something else to throw me off course. ..example...those posting of me saying the word "reject"...that proved nothing..and was a ploy to distract me from pinning your "left nut" to the wall.
[Shrug] I was just playing the "game" for a moment like I thought you wanted to play the "game." Apparently, it's too much for you to take.quote:
I can make post too from you.....
Actually, my quoting of your old posts (and my own), was to make the point that nobody has told anyone to "reject PIPS." The quotes you make of me are disjointed bits of speach without anything in common. Of course they look like nonsense without their context. That wasn't the point of the quotes I posted.quote:
See!!!! all of this proves that YOU do the Cha Cha like a sissy....you like to ....do....the ....Cha Cha
This is sarcasm: Yup, those insults really are an example of playing the "game" on my terms. Oh, it's like looking in a mirror.quote:
.....Ok...ill let you sqwirm out of t |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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PIPS-PureInvestor
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 22:36:43 [Permalink]
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Greetings,
Having tried to read all these long posts, I do not have the time to expand on all of them, but one statement made me laugh as it has to do with the BBB post below. (g)
>
So many industries and companies, and yet not a single name! Any business with names and addresses we could get a information on? One company we could check with our better business bureau about?
<
Do you even have a clue how the BBB operates? Did you know it is a membership FOR profit organization? In short, you pay for favorable reports on your company, what a scam on the public they have been over the years.
Come on, even if you are not a member, they only report on complaints and how those complaints are responded to. If you have no complaints, then there will be nothing to report, so by all means, go check with the BBB.
Nothing will be found even if PIPS had businesses in the US, but they don't at this point, so what good is the BBB?
As to others who were posting the 700% ROI, that is another example of uninformed reporting. The actual figures are just over 21% per month if you bothered to research formula used. ROI is only generated on trafing days, and it works out to about 1.1% per day as your original investment expires in 180 days, and it takes 52 days to recoup your original investment. There is little reason to read Ignoramus report as it is far from accurate information.
The last point is this. There is no guarantee plan will perform for the two years used as an example, just as it is true no one would leave their money in account without taking withdrawals well before this two year example. No one ever said they would leave their money in for two years, so why was this crazy example used, just because a simulator tool is capped at two years to help people plug in their strategies. That is crazy to assume everyone was leaving their money in plan for full two years, so the crazy numbers be thrown about a as far from reality as it can get.
As to earning 20% a day, come on, a good forex trader can do that and more in a day, as I have. I have made 40% in a month on real estate, collectibles, commodities, so just because you haven't, that does not negate the possibility that many others can and do on a regular basis earn 20% per day. Heck, I turn 5% to 10% with arbitrage trading on a daily basis, as do thousands I know in the industry, so never say never is another saying I live by.
Good luck, Mike
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http://PIPS-PureInvestor.com |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 22:43:05 [Permalink]
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Mike wrote:quote:
As to earning 20% a day, come on, a good forex trader can do that and more in a day, as I have. I have made 40% in a month on real estate, collectibles, commodities, so just because you haven't, that does not negate the possibility that many others can and do on a regular basis earn 20% per day.
20% per day is about 23,738% per month, not a pathetic 40% per month. Compare apples to apples, please.quote:
Heck, I turn 5% to 10% with arbitrage trading on a daily basis, as do thousands I know in the industry...
And at such sustained rates, you could easily earn the equivalent of the entire Federal budget of $2.4 trillion in less than five years. The question is: why aren't you doing so? Why isn't "Mike" the Forbes #1 richest man? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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PIPS-PureInvestor
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 22:50:44 [Permalink]
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Greetings,
Yes, I agree, but unfortunately, there are caps on how much one could invest in this financial arena per day as there is a degree of risk in all investments. No one can turn that profit every day, but I have and continue to do so many days a month, so I know it is possible whether you want to believe it or not. Only a fool would individually risk a $100K bankroll on one trade, so again, a very unlikely scenario.
<
So let's say I discover one of these. Let's say I get a loan for $100,000 and invest it all. After four days, I pull the original $100 grand out and pay off the loan (with a negligible interest payment). I've now made $107,360 in just four days. After a further 72 days, with almost $54 billion in profit, I should be richer than the world's richest man. I can withdraw all this money from the high-percentage investment, put it all in passbook savings at %1 APR, and live comfortably on an after-tax income of around $270 million each and every year. All in less than three months.
Why isn't this happening dozens of times a month, every month, if it works so well? Why isn't the Forbes list of richest people simply dominated by people who are trying to "one-up" each other in their ability to work high-interest investing?
Well, no matter the answer, I've certainly convinced myself that I'd like to get just a measly $54 million in the next three months, and I've got a spare $100 to play with, so please, don't hesitate to let me know the details of even one of these 20%/day financial instruments.
>
Sorry, but it is not quite that easy, unless you are very lucky. (g)
Good luck, Mike |
http://PIPS-PureInvestor.com |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 23:15:45 [Permalink]
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Mike wrote:quote:
Yes, I agree, but unfortunately, there are caps on how much one could invest in this financial arena per day as there is a degree of risk in all investments. No one can turn that profit every day, but I have and continue to do so many days a month, so I know it is possible whether you want to believe it or not.
Thank you. This thread has partly been about how unreasonable it is to suggest that high-percentage returns are sustainable every day, and now we've got your agreement that such is true.
So I ask you: what is a reasonable rate of return to expect over, say, one or two years?quote:
Only a fool would individually risk a $100K bankroll on one trade, so again, a very unlikely scenario.
You're missing the point, which is that according to what you're telling us, we can - through PIPS at just 1.1% - double our investments every 64 trading days, and it wouldn't be "one trade." And once we double the original investment, we take the original back out, and all the rest of what we make is free money. That seems to be the PIPS promise. And after the original investment is secured again, the risk reduces to zero, doesn't it? If we lose it all, we've gotten to play with other people's money, without personal penalty. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 02:48:12 [Permalink]
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Edited out for 4 AM gibberish. Sorry 'bout that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/03/2004 03:23:47 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 03:19:41 [Permalink]
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At the risk of sounding like a broken record, again I ask for:
A prospectus.
A list of the company's officers.
The official regulations regarding investment of the country where the firm is based -- be specfic.
The company's history.
This is information that any legitimate firm would happily give an investor or his agent, probably without being asked. Thus far, exactly none of this has been presented in spite of repeated requests. All we've been given is links to what amounts to little more than a tourest brochure and a forum filled with PIPS enthusests. This is evidence in support of what, exactly? That Mayalsia is a swell place to invest and lots of people love PIPS?
I have to admit, it gave me a chuckle. You are arguing from popularity, which is no argument at all. It is popular to believe in Loch Ness monsters and Bigfoot, but "where's the beef?"
On the other hand, the math as done by Dave and others is hard to refute.
Until something besides rhetoric amd cheerleading is put forth, I will continue to regard this as another flim-flam, albeit more ambitious and wider spread than most.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/03/2004 03:21:52 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 07:56:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus
Valiant Dancer- Again, a 2% return on investment with low to no risk is not credible.
Lapcus- who said anything about "low risk" ...were is that at?? I didnt say it...who did? and Why is this "not" credible? We are not talking about the laws of physics here...
PIPS website.
"PIPS is a no fail system"
quote:
Valiant Dancer- The most I have ever seen a investment plan return (that is US licenced which requires full disclosure of holdings and performance which is independantly verifiable) is 30/40% annual return at high risk.
Lapcus- Did you just read what you just said?? "the most YOU have ever seen" ..now what makes YOU the final arbitor of what should and should not be??
Since I have been ardently doing research into investment returns from legitamate companies, the opion has some weight. I don't know why it is you claim I need to be final arbiter, I'm just presenting results of research. Where is your evidence that your particular scam is anywhere near normal or expected. Especially due to the claims from the PIPS website of low risk.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- You are claiming 2% per day, which, if you do the math comes to about 540% return (if all return is taken out per day) annual return.
Lapcus- excuse me but "I" have never claimed anything but what I have made. and 540% a year is about correct. and the "if all return is taken out per day" thing is flawed because you are missing a crucial fact about this program...go along with Gargo and find out what that is...(please Dave dont tell them)
From information you sent to H. Humbert and reported by him 10/14/2004
"Oh, and another thing. Don't you hate it when your stocks take a dip and those stupid jerks on Wall Street (who you just know must be loaded) never offer to pay you out of their own pocket? Well PIPS will give you money even if their investments didn't earn it! Because of the ration of Company Investments versus Member Investments, (60% - 40%); the company really doesn't even have to make 2% everyday in order to pay us 2%. Awesome! Totally awesome! You get paid even if the company didn't earn enough to pay you! It's a win/win situation."
Your claim, Ace.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- A gap of this magnitude is not logically possible. Microsoft actually produced a product which due to marketing strategy and business plans succeeded in a big way. Your investment alledgedly buys stocks (undisclosed), bonds (undisclosed), real estate (undisclosed), and contributes to charity (undisclosed and unprofitable).
Lapcus- stocks are only a small percent of what they do. Real estate, and bonds are likewise. I have seen the info for one of the Charities.
But thats besides the point ...why does disclosing everything about the workings of a company make it legit?...it doesnt ..Enron is an example of that. And why does contributing to Charities bad? I think that is wonderful. Brayn's dream was not all about making money...it is about helping people get out of the grip of poverty.
Contributing to charities isn't bad, it's unprofitable. I have never claimed it was bad. Evidentally you glossed over the evidence that you cite later. My problem is the claim of huge returns from diverisfied investments which tend to balance out at a much lower rate than the one quoted. Bond markets alone drag down the numbers.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- The evidence I have seen which makes me say this is likely a Ponzi scheme (classified as a gifting enterprize under USC Title 18) are the following
Lapcus- Evidence...oohh good...lets see (first time for everything)...
Valiant Dancer- 1) The holdings of the company are kept secret
Lapcus- not everything is kept secret, If you would just go look you would find. what is revealed. Dont get me wrong...you wont find the names of all the workers , and this addresses and their phone numbers and what they all do on sundays. But there is some basic info out there. But besides that....why does that matter? Even if you had this info it still would not satisfy you. Enron was in the USA and all that info was made public and they still were a scam. So what does that info matter??
I looked and found only generalities with no way to independantly verify anything. I am uninterested in the names and hobbies of the individual employees. Why you continue to jump off on these little strawmen arguements is beyond me. Enron falsifed documents as it related to wholly owned subsidiaries. They also were not a financial investment company, different disclosure rules apply.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- 2) The rate of return is extremely high with low risk
Lapcus- Were did you get this concept of low risk. That statment right there tells me that you didnt even look at the website...you are just posting for the sake of negativity...
Then you don't read your own scam's website.
I quoted the website directly on 10/25/2004.
"PIPS is a no fail system" -- PIPS website
quote:
Valiant Dancer- 3) The rate of money being made can be shown to outstrip the amount of currency available in the world very quickly
Lapcus- As I said again...you are missing one key element here...which I have only agreed to devulge to one person provided he doesnt tell you...the rest can get your lazy a**s out and look for it yourself....or just continue to post in ignorance...
Argumentum ad vercundiam.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- 4) Posted critism of the plan attracts "defenders" which act like probable shills
Lapcus- if it was educated critism i would have asked you were did you get the info so i can study it for myself...and what did i get...that link that you posted that had nothing to do with this company....a lie...oops..a mistake on your part....
The posters here defending the investment schemes use tactics which indicate shill activity. Expressing absolute trust in the company. Expressing absolute enthusiasm in the company. Providing zero details as requested.
quote:
Valiant Dancer- 5) Repeated requests to have the holdings of the plan posted to this message board have been ignored and those individuals |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 10:09:04 [Permalink]
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| I find this all incredibly ridiculous that if there is so much information it is withheld from mere browsers of the site. It gives no information whatsoever. PIPS-Pure Investor, Lapcus, I want to see this information. Send me the information. |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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lapcus
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 10:42:25 [Permalink]
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Greetings all and good tidings
----------------------------------------------------------------------
satans_mom- Hello Lapcus.
I have not since voiced an opinion in this folder, as I did thoroughly enjoy keeping up with everything. I would like to mention a few personal objections I have that also intricate themselves with the whole debate I have read.
Lapcus- Hello and welcome. I am glad that someone is reading what I have said..and Im glad that someone besides me is enjoying this.
satans_mom- You're far too conceited, I think, and I first noticed this in your post that you stated, "We are the elite..." and have been reaffirmed in the following posts you've made. If I wanted to take the time, I'd point out many more instances, however, you'll either be satisfied with this one or not at all, either way, I truly have no cares.
Lapcus- Honestly im not really conceited...i just come off that way because I know that it is pissing someone off Its working.
satans_mom- But to put it plainly, I don't think I'll ever see your fortune profile in Fortune 500 for your wise ideas in "investing" in PIPS (and I understand you've said you do not want lavishing fortune but a comfortable, "work-free" lifestyle, correct, making my Fortune 500 ideal a bit bizarre? Of course you did not say this directly, but in any means, I firmly believe PIPS will not take you there).
Lapcus- Probaly not...because there are countless people in this program that are in the USA and are making more than I do. For instance the person who first told me about PIPS is making over $20,000 a month. Im no where near that much.. If there will be a new age of billionares because of this program then there will be alot of them. But as far as the work-free lifestyle...i am there and am happy...im not rich..but im well off...and have helped a few people with my new found wealth...
satans_mom- You may claim many people have made money, but I have been confirmed in my own opinion that the people that may have made money are making the money off of those that are investing now and those that will continue to invest, with money which will not be returned to them.
Lapcus- yes that is what is called a Ponzi and that is what the Skeptics in the room have repeatedly called this program because of so-called knowledge of Ponzi shemes. There is nothing that I can say to change that...here are a few examples of why.
Valiant Dancer- As posted before, some Ponzi schemes last 20 years or more.
H. Humbert- Besides, legit companies can swindle you out of money too!
I can find more but this tells me that PIPS can be around for 100 years or more..and people will still say....they cant make that much money...its a scam...dont trust it...its gonna fall at any moment now.
In conclusion....what ever feels like a scam to these people is a scam in their eyes...i guess...there is no boundries for the absurb here...once labled a scam ...it will always be a scam....and they can call me a scammer all the way to the bank as i withdraw my funds....i could care less...
satans_mom- Furthermore, you are the one that openly denies evidence presented to you. That is why the "skeptics" here associate you with the same tactics used by religious fanatics. I prefer to keep an open mind, and being that I have not yet posted in this thread, I wanted to get a good hold of what was going on. You were the one that posted most enthusiastically (in my opinion) and obviously most fervently in support of PIPS. Therefore, you would be subject to most crossfire.
Lapcus- I havent seen any evidence...just hearsay....Vilant dancer posted a link....Incognitus posted a link...R.Wreck posted a link...all of which had either nothing to do with PIPS or just an all out blantant deception. People in thier self-style genius try to do math calculations...and it is also flawed...I know the reason why it is flawed...but I just want them to keep making a fool of themselves on that one. As far as the cross fire...they can shoot at me in here all they want...the FACT is...Im making money...THEY are not....so thier pleas are meaningless. Ive only encountered two types of people in my search for info on PIPS 1. those who have invested and are most impressed with it....or 2. those who have not..and sneer at it. I liken alot of skeptics in here with the anit religious fevor...that akin to Athiest...but you can't debate the way Athiest do...just doesnt work in this situation.
satans_mom- Now show us why. Your links smell of advertisement. I can't read pages of advertisement like I can't watch 5 minutes of ads on the TV. I'm sure you can understand. You will say you have shown us why, but if you want to prove anything, you will have to speak your points directly, not provide us with volumes of advertisements like you have been to a certain few.
lapcus- look on this part of this forum http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3209&whichpage=11 and see what i posted in reply to Ricky ...this is also in one of the links i gave to filty......they both called that advertisment....that was pure info...but they insist that it is advertisment....i dont believe they even know what advertisment is....i mean....look at what i did post in awnsers to thier questions and you tell me if i was "adverstising" to them...you dont have to tell me in the fourm if you dont want to....you can tell me your awnser at this email address theoneworldman@yahoo.com ... I say this because i dont want you ridiculed for agreeing with me...that is if you do....
as far as what i said to filty..check out the awnsers yourself
put forth the prospectus- sorry i cant help you there, never really looked into that.
governing regulations- http://www.lofsa.gov.my/lofsa5/index.htm
"i think that his has changed recently...but i dont know for sure"
history- http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6945 , and http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=879 (scroll to the bottom)
list of officers- http://forum.pipsinc.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18978
Again Filhty said that this was ALL ads.
satans_mom- I understand you claim these pools of information you provided to a certain few were *not* advertisements, but I've been bombarded with advertisements my entire life and can't shake the feeling that they are, so please provide alternatives. Post the answers to questions in your OWN words, please*.
Lapcus- I understand your frustration with adverisments...i hate them too....but for me to explain things in my own words would take hours opon hours and result in the largest post ever recroded in history!!!!
There are no one to two words that can explain away everything. Besides I would like to rely on 3rd party info...because If I myself post awnsers then that would make me the "expert" in this field "which I am not". I only show people what my eyes have already seen.
satans_mom- "Many PONZI schemes and MLM's can last for many years, therefore, the undisclosed duration of time in which PIPS has lasted is not evident enough to support your argument,"
Lapcus- you have awnsered a question that i earlier posted.."when does a company stop being a potential scam ..and is accepted as a legit company?"
The awnser seems to be "never" and there is no amount of evidence that can change that....
satans_mom- "The 2% return investment is completely unrealistic; the numbers have been provided," and so on.
Lapcus- 2% a day is about 40% a month....
funny thing is while i was typing this out..someone called me talking about investments in the volitale natural gas and crude oil industry....this person told me that it is possible to make 200% profit a month or more (investing $10 |
| Edited by - lapcus on 11/03/2004 10:43:53 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 11:13:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus
Lapcus- yes that is what is called a Ponzi and that is what the Skeptics in the room have repeatedly called this program because of so-called knowledge of Ponzi shemes. There is nothing that I can say to change that...here are a few examples of why.
Valiant Dancer- As posted before, some Ponzi schemes last 20 years or more.
H. Humbert- Besides, legit companies can swindle you out of money too!
ad hominem. You have provided no prospectus to refute analysis. Multiple users here have expressed concern over profits of company, ROI estimates which outstrip the GDP of the world in 5 years, etc. You have provided exactly zero evidence of your claims. Content only in pointing to a company website which provides no details.
quote:
Lapcus- you have awnsered a question that i earlier posted.."when does a company stop being a potential scam ..and is accepted as a legit company?"
The awnser seems to be "never" and there is no amount of evidence that can change that....
satans_mom- "The 2% return investment is completely unrealistic; the numbers have been provided," and so on.
Lapcus- 2% a day is about 40% a month....
funny thing is while i was typing this out..someone called me talking about investments in the volitale natural gas and crude oil industry....this person told me that it is possible to make 200% profit a month or more (investing $1000 and making $4000 in 2 months)...while i dont know if that is possible or not....there are people apparently doing that...or perhaps he was a scammer....i told him i was not intested at the time...and he said he would send me some info in the mail...apparently he had my addess ...mailing leads....i guess
Commodities markets are much more volitile than investments. Your reference to them in response to investment schemes is invalid. Again, no support for your position.
quote:
Lapcus- the info that i have sent has been wholly rejected as an advertisment....for some reason people still think that im trying to recruit them....would i do all of this for $10 a month?
Strawman. Point positied was company was not legitamate and your profits was most likely the result of the nature of Ponzi schemes, not recruitment.
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satans_mom- ....they've been requesting and assuring this community the information provided is legitimate and legitimate in OUR terms, which means, convincing, direct, and reasonable, answers that leave no questions blank, and if anyone else would like to add to this definition, please do, as I left much room for individual alteration. If you do so, I'm sure that the people you have been debating will politely thank you for the information and admit that PIPS is legitimate.
Lapcus- on the skeptic's terms???...that is impossible....knowing the mind of the skeptics here...here is an example of why its not possible.....
_________________________________________________________
Skeptic- I demand the location of PIPS
Lapcus- ok here it is....
Skeptic- How can you prove that this info is legit?
Lapcus- its provided by the company....there are also numbers that you can call and ask questions
Skeptic- How do you know that the numbers that you call actualy come from the PIPS offices...it could people scammers playing games...
Lapcus- I called myself and was billed on my phone for calling Malasaya
Skeptic- It could be a skilled hacker that know how to redirect phone calls..that proves nothing..I want the name of the person you call....the person's full name...home address...and postion in the PIPS structure, I want to know the names of the companies they deal with....and the names of all thier workers.....I want every bit of info to be proven legit and from a creditble source, even if you give me a name of a creditble source...i want all his/her background info as well...I want to have a full page report of were every dollar is spent..and a full page report of every dollar that comes in...i demand that every bit of paperwork to come from a credible source done that has been threw an extensive background check...and also and extensive background check of the sources who provided you with the sources for the sources of the first person....etc...etc...etc...
Lapcus- .......
Skeptic- nothing to say??....HA! its a scam...i knew it!!! 
Slippery slope fallacy
quote:
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I know that that example is extreame...but the point is...there is no end to "your terms" and that is a rather daunting task...that i dont have the time or the resoruce to undertake....so what do i do?...i Point you all in the direction for you to do that task yourselves..and you refuse to...maybe because you yourselves know that it is impossible to convince yourself otherwise....
satans_mom- I will leave the question-asking to the group, as they have more knowledge of investment companies than I.
Lapcus- I think that you may have more knowledge of investment companies than the whole "group" combined....or at least more common sense....
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Lapcus- PIPS-PureInvestor...hey man...dont pay Dave, filhty, Vilant and Humbert no heed...
Humbert doesnt know his ass from a hole in the ground...and Dave's ego is too damaged right now to have an intellegent debate with him...Vialant will resort to giving false info in order to appear intellegent...
Ad hominem. Erroneous information admitted to and retracted. Your continued harping on it further weakens your position. I have quoted the PIPS website you reference and you do not accept it. Since you will not answer direct questions on company holdings (which you admit to not even seeking), how can we take your word when you even have not done (by your own admission) due dillegence.
quote:
and filthy dosnt even know what he is looking for..or if he is looking at all....
just consider the minds of the people you are dealing with here...example:
"Valiant Dancer- As posted before, some Ponzi schemes last 20 years or more.
H. Humbert- Besides, legit companies can swindle you out of money too! "
I didnt come here to convince them of anything....but if you are...please dont...you are fighting a losing battle ..there is NOTHING that you can say or do to convince the...even if you came to all thier locations...put them on a plane to Malasya and have them me the CEO face to face...they still will not believe....actualy that might be a bad idea....Humbert might try to assassinate Bryan in hope that that will put an end to PIPS...
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 11:34:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lapcus"H. Humbert- Besides, legit companies can swindle you out of money too!"
Lapcus- DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU JUST SAID?!?!?!?!?!?
DO YOU!!!??? I dont think i even need to say anything here....any thinking person can realized that you just shot yourself in the foot with that statment......you've done your own self in....I can do no more..dont even post here any more..."looks to Dave W.": "your honor....I rest my case....."
You're like a hyper-active monkey boy bouncing up and down. Settle down, Forrest. Whatever you think I said, I didn't. You obviously misunderstood me, and so you're overstated confidence is misplaced and based on your own ignorance. I'm beginning to think you really do believe yourself a wise investor.
First of all, that that statement was in quotes, meaning I was parroting things you were saying. Secondly, Enron was a legitimate company that offered a legitimate service. It was its managment that became corrupt and ultimately ran Enron into the ground through mishandling of funds and shady accounting practices.
The point was, however, that what happened to Enron is irrelevant. That there is risk in stocks or that good companies can go bad doesn't absolve you from providing the proper creditials for your investment scheme. You keep bringing up red herrings whenever someone presses this point. Why are you so defensive? What do you have to hide? You can't be so dense as to keep missing the point over and over again.
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Lapcus- indeed and religious faith can be compared to the studdorness and defiance of man.....tell me this...."if someone told *you* that you could be cured by looking at a staff....knowing that it only takes the flexing of a few muscles and the focusing of the eyes...would *you*...look at the staff??.....i dont think you would.....i think you would rather run off and die....instead of looking at it"
This is so stupid as to hardly deserve comment, but I feel compelled to correct your errors wherever I see them. I would look. ALL skeptics would look. We just wouldn't necessarily expect anything to happen.
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H. Humbert- Excelllent article, Incognitus.
I hope you're right and that he faces justice. Too many times the guilty slip away unpunished to enjoy the spoils of their crimes.
Lapcus- Hope???....no amount of wishful thinking will make PIPS go away....and besides after what you just said....earlier...you just need to stop posting ...you discrgraced yourself.....dont even bother trying to come back and defend yourself....
No, the hard facts of economics will make PIPS go away. My hope was that the perpetrators of this (alleged) scam would face justice. Unlike you, the prospect of several thousand people losing their shirts doesn't cause me any joy. It sickens me, and I think the men responsible for such crimes should pay. I know if (when) PIPS collapses, you won't be able to locate everyone who's paid into the scheme. That's why I sincerely hope you will step forward if any class actions lawsuits are filed as someone who benefited from the scam. It would be the right thing to do.
I'm also sorry for whatever people from the PIPS forum which think you've been do a good job representing them and arguing the case for PIPS legitimacy. I know you think of it as a "game," but others might have more at stake than you. They can't afford PIPS to be a scam, they can't afford you to be wrong. If they cheer you on don't take it as a sign that you are doing well, rather that they have a deep-seated psychological need for you to be right.
You've failed in every argument you've made, failed to provide anything approximating acceptible evidence, pounced on single words and purposely misconstrued their usage, and claimed premature "victory" time and time again. In keeping with you comparing us to atheists earlier, I'd like to point out that your tactics are exacly those employed by fundamental creationists.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/03/2004 15:13:53 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 11:40:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
From information you sent to H. Humbert and reported by him 10/14/2004
"Oh, and another thing. Don't you hate it when your stocks take a dip and those stupid jerks on Wall Street (who you just know must be loaded) never offer to pay you out of their own pocket? Well PIPS will give you money even if their investments didn't earn it! Because of the ration of Company Investments versus Member Investments, (60% - 40%); the company really doesn't even have to make 2% everyday in order to pay us 2%. Awesome! Totally awesome! You get paid even if the company didn't earn enough to pay you! It's a win/win situation."
Your claim, Ace.
Actually, just the stuff in blue was from the promotional material. Any sections in black text are my comments. Thus, the original claim was:
"Because of the ration of Company Investments versus Member Investments, (60% - 40%); the company really doesn't even have to make 2% everyday in order to pay us 2%. Awesome!"
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/03/2004 11:41:18 |
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