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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2004 : 08:10:27
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I don't really wan't to label people with opposing opinions as stupid, but it actually seems like there is a large ignorance surplus among some Americans.
quote:
Article in Program on International Policy Attitudes
72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.
Quite understandable when you see the GOP propaganda and the distortions from certain "news" organizations.
(See http://mediamatters.org/. Partisan, yes, but interesting.)
quote:
Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.
Again a lot of propaganda. quote:
...only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq. Forty-two percent assume that views are evenly divided, and 26% assume that the majority approves. Among Kerry supporters, 74% assume that the majority of the world is opposed.
Well the 26% that thinks that the world approves are definitely stupid.
Don't they know that we non-americans are all ungodly communists in league with the devil?
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
 Posted - 10/22/2004 : 10:19:01 [Permalink]
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All in all a freighting report. However I must take issue with some of the wording of that report.
"72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%)."
I think most people believed that Iraq HAD WMD's or a program Before the war. That is what everyone was telling us.
"75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda"
Again, I think most people believed this before the war started
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 11:40:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
All in all a freighting report. However I must take issue with some of the wording of that report.
"72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%)."
I think most people believed that Iraq HAD WMD's or a program Before the war. That is what everyone was telling us.
"75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda"
Again, I think most people believed this before the war started
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While true a few months before the war, it was not a few weeks before the war.
UNSCOM was getting all kinds of access to weapons sites with no forward notification. They determined that no such programs were active in Iraq and likely destroyed after 1991. They bemoaned sloppy paperwork by the Iraqi government. They went public with it weeks before invasion. France and Russia read the reports and advised against invasion.
I have seen polls which indicate to this day that a large number of Bush supporters still believe that Iraq had WMD's and a palpable link to al- Queda even after the Bush administration backtracked on the reports while still forwarding it on the campaign trail.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 13:27:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
That is what everyone was telling us.
Except Hans Blix, who were actually there, looking for them. But did the American administration listen to him? No, it wasn't in their interest. Go figure.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 01:54:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
All in all a freighting report. .....
"75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda"
Again, I think most people believed this before the war started
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Speak for yourself. I never saw any connection. I wasn't sure about the WMDs the way even Colin Powell went on about it, but I never accepted any al Qaeda connections. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 10/23/2004 01:55:18 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 11:24:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Speak for yourself. I never saw any connection.
First of all, I was not speaking for you, me, or anyone in particular! I said "most" people, not all people. Actually "most" Americans would probably be more accurate. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
| Edited by - astropin on 10/23/2004 11:27:50 |
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satans_mom
Skeptic Friend
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 15:16:01 [Permalink]
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I think Bush supporters fail to realize that if Iraq did indeed have any WMD's, or the WMD's they did have a few decades ago, were actually supplied by the United States of America, and more importantly, George Bush Sr. during the Gulf War because during that time, Iraq was in war with Iran, and Iran, being strongly anti-American, evidently had loose support from the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union and we just experienced a Cold War and we still yet to have made compatible terms with Russia. The result? The United States helped fund the war in Saddam's favor by facillitating nerve agents, WMD's, and biological weapons for Iraqi use. Furthermore, at the same time, during the 1980's, Osama bin Laden had been leading a small army of Islamic Jihadists in fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. Naturally the CIA looked upon this as an opportunity to strike back against the Soviets, therefore funding the Islamic operation and providing financial support and weaponry. This would have been, in success, a large Muslim community turned jihad against the Soviets. The success? The well trained, well financed Osama bin Laden-led army turned against the mighty United States itself. A disaster!
What if Bush supporters were slapped repeatedly with this information? I think most of them would say, "Well, at that time Soviets were a threat, and so we were trying to defeat the threat. Now those we used to defeat the threat are a threat so we are again going to defeat the threat."
Soviets were hardly a threat. True, they HAD WMD's, yet did not use them. Furthermore, the US instigated the "war" in large part due to the notoriously egotistic nature of we Americans. The Soviets could have used them, but the race wasn't run because we were threatened of being harmed in any way other than losing face. Same with the Soviets.
Was Iraq a threat? No.
There however were threats. Threats of big oil companies being upset, for instance. Now that more people realize there was not substantial threat to attack Iraq, we say Saddam was a threat his own people, when Saddam, performing those exact same practices 20-some odd years ago, was having dinner with our then administration. As for the terrorist attacks? As for 9-11? These could be explained in one way, by claiming the CIA did not use the intelligence they had, or in another, that these attacks would lead the country into a war frenzy, which was succeeded, then left for fury against the perpetrators. Then? We attacked Afghanistan. We attacked Iraq. And one can't help but speculate that it wasn't for security reasons alone... |
Yo mama's so fat, she's on both sides of the family.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 23:03:01 [Permalink]
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To quote a segment from Dave Chapell's show...
Q: How do we know Saddam has WMD's?
A: Because we have the reciepts. |
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 02:15:18 [Permalink]
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I've been trying to follow the news about this little poll since it first came out, and it doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm sure most other folks living in the deep south or the heartland feel the same, except perhaps for the Bushies.
No matter how much evidence you present to these "Nascar Dad" and these "Security Mom" oddities, they will not change their minds. If you show where even the administration owns up to the no WMD scenario and no credible link between Iraq and al Qaeda presenting the evidence in article after article, they still insist that Hussein had viable nuclear, biological and chemical weapons programs, and was behind 9/11, working in concert with al Qaeda. They "know it in {their] hearts," and the major TV news networks do little to address these misconceptions. FOX seems to actively pursue reinforcing those misconceptions, and the administration still can't say "9/11" without saying Iraq within two sentences.
I think the Bushies have this perception of "values" that they plan to hang onto no matter what. They need it so badly that if their representative of God in the White House is caught in a lie, it's just more of the liberal media and the socialist propagandists attacking a truely righteous man, and undermining our nation. They know in their hearts that liberals = socialists = communists = facists are bound and determined to overthrow this great nation.
Believe it or not, any problems are still blamed on Clinton, and the liberals infesting the Courts. Man, I dunno anymore, so I blame the TV news media in an effort to retain at least some respect for many of my friends and neighbors. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 20:14:58 [Permalink]
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Over at Skeptic Times a few of the posters would rather see a President of Texas, as an independet state. If Texas would seriously consider leaving the United States, would you say Good Riddance?
Edit: My point was, I'd rather see GW Bush president of Texas than president of the USA. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/24/2004 20:15:55 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 20:37:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by astropin
All in all a freighting report. However I must take issue with some of the wording of that report.
"72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%)."
I think most people believed that Iraq HAD WMD's or a program Before the war. That is what everyone was telling us.
"75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda"
Again, I think most people believed this before the war started
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Astropin
I think you're focusing on the wrong word.
It's not that Bush backers were the only people who believed Iraq had WMD before the war.
It's that despite the evidence we now have to the contrary the majority of Bush backers CONTINUE to believe that Iraq had WMD before the war.
If you read the entire list the most frightening aspect is that the Bush backers are woefully ignorant of their own candidate's position on the issues.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 06:09:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
I don't really wan't to label people with opposing opinions as stupid, but it actually seems like there is a large ignorance surplus among some Americans.
quote:
Article in Program on International Policy Attitudes
72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.
Quite understandable when you see the GOP propaganda and the distortions from certain "news" organizations.
(See http://mediamatters.org/. Partisan, yes, but interesting.)
quote:
Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.
Again a lot of propaganda. quote:
...only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq. Forty-two percent assume that views are evenly divided, and 26% assume that the majority approves. Among Kerry supporters, 74% assume that the majority of the world is opposed.
Well the 26% that thinks that the world approves are definitely stupid.
Don't they know that we non-americans are all ungodly communists in league with the devil?
It's not stupidity. It's about deception and trust. Bush supporters pay attention to and trust information sources that are shamelessly willing to deceive them.
Think of what's become of the US democracy, once a beacon of political progressiveness to the world. It was originally conceived as government by the people for the people with the core concept being the government would be influenced by, staffed by, literally constructed by the desires of the voters. What it has become is the opposite. Political parties are funded by elite 'entitities' and use that funding to influence the people, via the media, to vote for them. A big componenent of that influence is deception and manipulation. It's not even about real issues, about what the government did or will do - it's about manipulating what the people believe to be true. Seriously, how did the right wing convince America that liberal values are immoral? Or that health care for every American was unachievable and fundamentally wrong? Or that the government literally can not manage anything complex? It's mind boggling. |
-Chaloobi
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DBD_Yodious
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 22:43:39 [Permalink]
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Pro-Bush here
I think its interesting how polarized people are. Kerry lovers think all republicans are evil and Bush lovers think democrats are evil.
But really, how can you blame the president for acting on WMD information that all the top democrats, including clinton and kerry, believed was true at the time. Now all of a sudden "he lied".
Kerry has no plan. He always says "i have a plan" but he never has one. What are his specifics? Also, anything he has mentioned that resembles a plan is just a copy of Bush's. Well except being the UN's bitch. That is all Kerry.
Kerry's speaking points are exactly along the same lines as the latest Bin Laden Tape.
Kerry has done nothing but run a negative campaign filled with lies since we are talking about lies.
Kerry has great vision. Hindsight is 20/20.
Can you imagine Theresa or Teresa (whatever) being a first lady? What a joke! What an awful representation of the U.S.
Good luck to your team tomorrow. (not really)
I just had to twist the knife!
ALways fun for a "W" fan to crash a Kerry party :)
no hate mail please :) |
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DBD_Yodious
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 22:48:10 [Permalink]
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LIberals and morals in the same sentence is an oxymoron, just ask Bill & Monica.
You guys are truly as misguided as you think the right wing is....
Hell, we are all misguided...time to vote libertarian!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2004 : 23:26:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by DBD_Yodious
Hell, we are all misguided...time to vote libertarian!
Yodious, I really think you should... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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