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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2004 : 06:11:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
Dr. Mabuse it's an article from the Chicago Tribune. Here are some highlights:
quote:
Dead voters on rolls, other glitches found in 6 key states
By Geoff Dougherty
A Tribune analysis of voter records suggests that more than 5,000 dead people remained on the rolls on Election Day in New Mexico. The presidential election there was decided by 6,000 votes.
And New Mexico is not alone. The Tribune's review of voter data there and in five other key states--Florida, Iowa, Ohio, Michigan and Minnesota--found widespread flaws in the integrity of voter rolls.
More than 181,000 dead people were listed on the rolls in the six swing states, despite efforts to clean up the country's voting system after the 2000 election.
Thousands more voters were registered to vote in two places, which could have allowed them to cast more than one ballot.
Further, more than 90,000 voters in Ohio cast ballots without a valid presidential choice. Either they decided not to choose a candidate, the machine failed to register their choice, or they mistakenly voted for more than one candidate.
And the FBI is investigating allegations that Republicans in Florida mounted a large-scale campaign to tamper with ballots.
Why then is most of what I hear from the left is recounting votes in Ohio? If WI, NM, MN, IA, FL and MI may have had problems. And what about other states that were not close? I have noticed that the left and Doomar wants recounts only in states that Bush won. No one cares about "counting every vote" in the states Bush lost(WI 49-50 Kerry). That doesn't fit the agenda and will not turn the election to Kerry. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 07:40:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Robb
And what about other states that were not close? I have noticed that the left and Doomar wants recounts only in states that Bush won. No one cares about "counting every vote" in the states Bush lost(WI 49-50 Kerry).
That may well be true, but since recounts are time consuming and expensive, and those states obviously did not change the outcome of the election, it doesn't make much sense to recount them.
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
That doesn't fit the agenda and will not turn the election to Kerry.
I really don't think anyone in their right mind still thinks the election could turn to Kerry no matter what may be discovered by a recount. This is more about discovering problems with the election process in order to improve it in the future than it is about any lingering hope for the election(s) now past. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 09:35:12 [Permalink]
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HOLY COW PIE, BATMAN! YOU GOTTA READ THIS IN DEPTH INVESTIGATIVE REPORT. IT WILL MAKE YOUR HAIR STAND ON END!
[See URL for photos of documents.]
Texas to Florida: White House-linked clandestine operation paid for "vote
switching" software
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html
By Wayne Madsen
Online Journal Contributing Writer
JUST A BIT OF IT
"An exhaustive investigation has turned up a link between current Florida
Republican Representative Tom Feeney, a customized Windows-based program to
suppress Democratic votes on touch screen voting machines, a Florida
computer services company with whom Feeney worked as a general counsel and
registered lobbyist while he was Speaker of the Florida House of
Representatives, and top level officials of the Bush administration."
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 09:45:47 [Permalink]
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ROB said, "I have noticed that the left and Doomar wants recounts only in states that Bush won."
Rob, I'm glad you distinguished between "the left" and "Doomar" as I am a conservative Republican. I abhor the current state in our election system. I'm for recounting every state and overhauling the system -- throwing out all of the electronic machines! I'm not out for a certain outcome, but a change in election process back to paper ballots and completely verifiable elections. As it stands todays, we can not recount ballots in many states, as there are none to count, only machine totals. Such is the case in my state of Kentucky (commonwealth). Only machine totals, no actual ballots! Machines can be manipulated. It is much harder to manipulate hand written and signed ballots.
Note, Rob, that if a president is elected through vote manipulation in only one state, as is all that is needed for 2004, it is, in effect, a coup and the loss of our Republic as we know it. This government, "of the people, by the people, and for the people" would be moving toward its total demise. Concerned citizens must WAKE UP and throw out the partisan thinking and recognize the extreme danger we are in. Whether it be Republican or Democrat doing the manipulation, on the national scales, it is akin to treason! |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 12/07/2004 09:46:13 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 09:48:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
And what about other states that were not close? I have noticed that the left and Doomar wants recounts only in states that Bush won. No one cares about "counting every vote" in the states Bush lost(WI 49-50 Kerry).
That may well be true, but since recounts are time consuming and expensive, and those states obviously did not change the outcome of the election, it doesn't make much sense to recount them.
quote:
Originally posted by Robb
That doesn't fit the agenda and will not turn the election to Kerry.
I really don't think anyone in their right mind still thinks the election could turn to Kerry no matter what may be discovered by a recount. This is more about discovering problems with the election process in order to improve it in the future than it is about any lingering hope for the election(s) now past.
Wendy, there is more to the call for recount than just recounting machine votes and provisional ballots. That is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. Manipulation of machine totals will require a deeper analysis and investigation. It is the current voting system that is reproachable, along with the partisans working it that have caused voter suppression, and thus removed votes from one candidate or another. What is the value of our democracy? Is it only worth a few thousand dollars? Whatever the cost of a recount and investigation, there is certainly enough "smoke" to signify a "fire" burning in the state of Ohio. We need to put it out(and I don't mean "suppress" it, but find the 'fire starters'.)
Also, I hope you are not suggesting that anyone who doubts the outcome is "out of their mind". Many informed skeptics do doubt the outcome of this election...this is the "Skeptic Friends Network" afterall. Also, because we doubt the results does not mean that we are naive to believe the election will be overturned. It does mean we are not willing to lay down and give up our democracy when we see serious flaws promoted and embraced by corrupt politicians and businessmen. Of one thing I am certain, "the love of money is the root of all evil" and that love is prevalent among many of our politicians. I just need to put 2+2 together to suspect that if corruption is possible in our election system, they are certainly using that "open door" to their own gain. Our government was founded with the principle that men are corrupted by power and thus, must be checked, so we have checks and balances built in to our system. We have laws to punish those who try to corrupt our system. Let us not be deceived about the severity of vote manipulation, voter suppression, election fraud, etc. Such crimes on the national scale are an attempt to circumvent the entire system of laws, checks and balances. The future of all the people in the United States are affected, along with all the people in the world. When any crime is weighed by a jury, the severity of the affect of what that criminal did is always taken into account. What should the punishment of the crime to steal an election be? See the thread, "What should the penalty be for election fraud?" Sure, it is a topic dealth with a bit of levity, but can you see the anger people have toward anyone wanting to steal an election for the "minority side"? Such crimes tear at the very fabric our government is founded upon. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 12/07/2004 10:13:57 |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 10:02:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Such is the case in my state of Kentucky (commonwealth). Only machine totals, no actual ballots! Machines can be manipulated. It is much harder to manipulate hand written and signed ballots.
Amen, Doomar. I am also a Kentuckian. Our Congressman (Hal Rogers) ran unopposed in the recent election. I wrote in a candidate. So did my husband and many of our friends and acquaintances. Many more simply declined to vote for Congressman Rogers, but the local tally for our county said his re-election was unanimous. We know is wasn't, though we have no record or proof other than our word.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 10:59:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
ROB said, "I have noticed that the left and Doomar wants recounts only in states that Bush won."
Rob, I'm glad you distinguished between "the left" and "Doomar" as I am a conservative Republican. I abhor the current state in our election system. I'm for recounting every state and overhauling the system -- throwing out all of the electronic machines!red]
I too am concerned about the possible vote manipulation that might have occured. I brought up concerns of no paper ballat in many counties in Texas and most people do not seem to care. I do not think that electronic voting is bad as long as a printed receipt of who somebody voted for so a recount can take place. I do not yet see any proof that vote manipulation took place outside of any laws. I do however think that it may still be proven in some counties in the US.
I also beleive that a majority of the people suing over the election results want a particular outcome and could care less if people were disfranchised in Texas or California. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 12:06:49 [Permalink]
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It can happen here
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/05/news/columnists/jacobs/17_56_4812_4_04.txt
December 4, 2004
By: PAUL JACOBS - For The Californian
"Do we really want democracy on the cheap? Is it more important for an
election to be inexpensive as opposed to having honest, accurate,
transparent election procedures? If money savings is the goal, let's
totally privatize our elections and give the manufacturers of the
electronic voting machines more proprietary control than they already
possess." |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 12:13:25 [Permalink]
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Rob said, "I do not yet see any proof that vote manipulation took place outside of any laws. I do however think that it may still be proven in some counties in the US. "
Rob, please check out the full articles I've referred to in this thread and then you might change your mind. Also, you can just do a search about election fraud or voter suppression or stolen election on the web. There are thousands of stories.
Rob, "I also beleive that a majority of the people suing over the election results want a particular outcome and could care less if people were disfranchised in Texas or California."
You don't know that, Rob. Some, perhaps, but many of these people are greatly concerned for our whole country, but they can focus in Ohio and Florida where great discrepancies have been found. In my state of Kentucky I'm very worried that our vote has already been lost to the machine and there is no way we can verify anything. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 12:46:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Also, I hope you are not suggesting that anyone who doubts the outcome is "out of their mind".
It is our nature to doubt. What I said, and what I continue to say is that anyone who thinks the election will "turn to Kerry" (Robb's choice of words) is naive at best. While recounts may uncover a great deal and help us immeasurably with future elections, like it or not George W. Bush will remain our President for the next four years.
I maintain that anyone who thinks otherwise is out of their mind. |
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2004 : 15:21:00 [Permalink]
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| Wendy, that is probably correct about Bush remaining president. I don't know. I do believe that a recount in and of itself will not be able to uncover the length and breath of this deception. If machines have been altered by programs and those programs are self-erasing, it will require an intense police investigation far beyond vote counting. I think you agree that something needs to be done to bring back vote varification to our states. Without individual ballots in that mix, it is impossible. With voting machines provided by private companies with agendas, it might as well be stamped on the machines just like cigarette packs - "Using this machine may be harmful to your democracy and may cause vote tampering, miscounts, lost votes, and other serious maladies." |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2004 : 08:11:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
I think you agree that something needs to be done to bring back vote varification to our states.
Absolutely. There is no question it needs to be done. The only question is how best to do it.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2004 : 16:25:11 [Permalink]
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Ohio election fraud uproar blasting to new level
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/975
by Steve Rosenfeld, Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman
December 7, 2004
"The bitter battle over the stolen November 2 election in Ohio has turned
into a rapidly escalating all-out multi-front war with the outcome of the
real presidential vote count increasingly in doubt."
Ohio: a revote?
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 03:39:00 [Permalink]
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I wish I had more time to read all the posts here. Forgive me if I post a redundant issue.
One concern I have is the TOTAL LACK of coverage of the Ohio recount in the mainstream media.
And one question I would like to see answered is how many voting machines were there in the black majority precincts in past elections? (Not enough machines in some areas and plenty in others and supposedly it was influenced by the Republican in charge.)
As far as why not recount all the votes, etc., etc., my understanding of the issues are the problems occurred in states like Ohio and FL where a very biased Republican was in charge of the election process. |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2004 : 15:23:45 [Permalink]
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20 Amazing Facts About Voting in the USA
http://nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html
by Angry Girl
Did you know....
1. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two companies: Diebold
and ES&S. Many links and verification of these facts |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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