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Wiley
Skeptic Friend
68 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2002 : 10:01:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Isn't the displacement of air what creates the sonic boom? Seems you would have to "move" it awfuly fast without any violent effects this speed would cause. How anyone could achieve this isn't clear.
Yep, that's what causes the boom. Displacing air is inefficient because you're wasting energy moving air instead of using it to go forward. Crafts with low drag coefficients displace less air and are more efficient. Although I was only half serious in my previous post, the physics behind it is sound.
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 10:11:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Isn't the displacement of air what creates the sonic boom? Seems you would have to "move" it awfuly fast without any violent effects this speed would cause. How anyone could achieve this isn't clear.
Well, I didn't say I had all the engineering problems licked, did I? I'm just the idea guy... 
quote:
But then again you said it's no less likely than an alien interstellar craft. That would make it pretty unlikely.
Uh-oh, I think they're on to me...
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 10:57:07 [Permalink]
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Let me continue the plunge into the bottomless pit of speculation.
In all the depictions of alien spacecraft I've seen since childhood, I have yet to see a "low tech" machine. I'm talking about the private sector aliens. The ones without unlimited government budgets and exotic technology.
The point I'm making is that all the alien craft so far have some sort of exotic manufactured frame and skin and razzle-dazzle instrumentation. Why spend billions in (enter name of alien currency here ______________) when using simple mining technology to hollow out an asteroid would suffice? One would then proceed to build or attach the propulsion system to the asteroid, and voila; low tech inter-stellar travel.
We are too smug in our assumptions that alien travel to this planet would be in government sanctioned craft. You mean to tell me that there aren't alien Hans Solos out there that would approach this planet in a flying piece of space junk?
The true spirit of galactic exploration and adventure is reserved exclusively for alien geeks on government payrolls???? Piffle!
Oh, Ye of little faith and vision! 
(:raig |
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Paulnib68
New Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 16:12:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Let me continue the plunge into the bottomless pit of speculation.
In all the depictions of alien spacecraft I've seen since childhood, I have yet to see a "low tech" machine. I'm talking about the private sector aliens. The ones without unlimited government budgets and exotic technology.
The point I'm making is that all the alien craft so far have some sort of exotic manufactured frame and skin and razzle-dazzle instrumentation. Why spend billions in (enter name of alien currency here ______________) when using simple mining technology to hollow out an asteroid would suffice? One would then proceed to build or attach the propulsion system to the asteroid, and voila; low tech inter-stellar travel.
We are too smug in our assumptions that alien travel to this planet would be in government sanctioned craft. You mean to tell me that there aren't alien Hans Solos out there that would approach this planet in a flying piece of space junk?
The true spirit of galactic exploration and adventure is reserved exclusively for alien geeks on government payrolls???? Piffle!
Oh, Ye of little faith and vision!
(:raig
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Paulnib68
New Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 16:33:15 [Permalink]
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Well the problem is that it's anthropomorphic thinking and assumes aliens at least are similar to us. Who says they have government? Who says they use currency? What you propose is practical human ingenuity. Just isn't "neato" enough for aliens.
The latest speculations (believers call it theory) in ufological circles seems to be that the "ships" we see so often are actually small scout ships or probes and that the sighting reports of huge football sized ships represent the presence of "motherships". My favorite "huge" mothership ufo is the shot from the NOAA satellite where they claim it is a massive ship in the upper left of the photo. Of course it's the moon but that's besides the point LOL. This can be found on Filers Files.com along with the proven hoaxed pleadian craft photo's accompanying the book they are meant to help sensationalize.
So basically, what we have been seeing, forget the B.M. E.W. models, ARE the low budget deals in a sense. But as for what a galactic family truckster or the equivelent of the venerable 76 volare would look like I have no idea. No one has thought of the utilitarian angle I guess.
Really, if we follow bleever logic, an asteroid would not be the best vehicle if your looking to conduct secret tests on your unwilling human subjects. How can you hide an asteroid? Forget landing it in a field next to a cow;)
Besides, it makes too much sense despite the scale of the job. And ufology, being the sociological enigma that it is, isn't about rationality.
Sorry bout the above flubbed post. Wrong button.
Skeptics Tricks
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2002 : 07:01:14 [Permalink]
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Really, if we follow bleever logic, an asteroid would not be the best vehicle if your looking to conduct secret tests on your unwilling human subjects. How can you hide an asteroid? Forget landing it in a field next to a cow;)
Besides, it makes too much sense despite the scale of the job. And ufology, being the sociological enigma that it is, isn't about rationality.[Paulnib68]
Even the UFOers admit that an intergalactic craft is a group effort. There has to be some sort of social structure and hierarchy behind a space craft construction project. I seriously doubt that Space Depot has a construction kit out for the weekend do-it-yourselfers. Having said that, I was concerning myself with the intergalactic travel portion in a sub-light craft. A self-propelled asteroid makes sense because it can plow through space, absorbing all the nicks, dings and bug splats on the (solar)windshield without the dreaded hull breech alarms going off.
An atmospheric scout craft is another matter. But slinking around at night with your lights on and traveling at subsonic speeds is hardly what I would call "stealth". Of course, you could grab the bull by the horns. As you glide over the Earthlings, taking readings and air samples the flashing "Budweiser" sign would keep the Air Force interceptors at bay.
(:raig |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2002 : 14:58:25 [Permalink]
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As you glide over the Earthlings, taking readings and air samples the flashing "Budweiser" sign would keep the Air Force interceptors at bay.
Come in great Pooh Bah, Come in great Pooh Bah. This is Zork in scout ship one.
The Earthlings are fearless. We hovered over a crowd them in our death ship for 20 mictoes and none of them even cared. We are returning to the planet Goodyear now.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2002 : 15:16:24 [Permalink]
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Well sir? "Spoot---ding!" (Sound of spitoon.)
You just ask one-ah dem dare alien beans to come on over n' I'll given a ride n' show 'em the "fisiks" o' what fly'n really is by the seat o' the pants -- stick n' rudder, in my Stearman Kaydet.
http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/history/boeing/kaydet.html
Chip
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 08:29:59 [Permalink]
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Well the problem is that it's anthropomorphic thinking and assumes aliens at least are similar to us. Who says they have government? Who says they use currency? What you propose is practical human ingenuity. Just isn't "neato" enough for aliens.
Why wouldn't they have some kind of currency? Currency represents work. The ability to send a spaceship such a long ways implies a division of labour in their society. If labour is divided then there has to be some sort of monitary unit to keep track of who gets what.
There is also the issue of allocating resources. That is how much is used on any given project.
Skeptics Tricks
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 08:50:37 [Permalink]
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Why wouldn't they have some kind of currency? Currency represents work. The ability to send a spaceship such a long ways implies a division of labour in their society. If labour is divided then there has to be some sort of monitary unit to keep track of who gets what.
There is also the issue of allocating resources. That is how much is used on any given project.
Just because communism has so far failed to work for us, does not mean that it would not work for anyone else.
The worst problem is, that we can't even assume, that they have a similar distinction between individuals and the whole as humans do.
Ants don't have money. I personally am a sentient being, that consists of many highly specialized cells. Division of labor and allocation of resources works fine without currency being used by the cells.
You can only say that if the aliens are similar enough to us, that they have encountered similar problems, they might have found similar solutions.
Edited by - Lars_H on 05/23/2002 08:52:53 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 09:16:29 [Permalink]
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For that matter why would they even need ships.
Life on Earth has evolved to live under very harsh conditions. Bacteria has been to space on our rockets and lived.
If creatures -somewhere-evolved to live in outer space that would be no great stretch of the imagination. After all we evolved to live in oxygen-the most corrosive gas there is.
Then you wouldn't need intelligence, or money to find the Earth.
Only an appetite.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 10:17:59 [Permalink]
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If creatures -somewhere-evolved to live in outer space that would be no great stretch of the imagination. After all we evolved to live in oxygen-the most corrosive gas there is.
Then you wouldn't need intelligence, or money to find the Earth.
Only an appetite. [Slater]
My God, you're right, Slater! Check out...
http://us.imdb.com/Plot?0064393
Or maybe this belongs under the "Really Bad Movies Worth Watching" thread. 
(:raig
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 15:05:31 [Permalink]
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Slater:
"For that matter why would they even need ships. Life on Earth has evolved to live under very harsh conditions. Bacteria has been to space on our rockets and lived.
If creatures -somewhere-evolved to live in outer space that would be no great stretch of the imagination. After all we evolved to live in oxygen-the most corrosive gas there is. Then you wouldn't need intelligence, or money to find the Earth."
No, no.., no. *L* Slater, ya joke, huh? "No great stretch ?!?" Well, OK, such a lifeform would have to rely on stellar radiation, then, for its sum and substance, no lungs or gut bag, to worry about. Communicate by signing, or some sort of esp? It would certainly have severe problems with interstellar travel, too. And, if it needed no planetary body to survive, Sol being nothing special as to it's radiation output, why would Earth be an attraction for it? No, can't accept that you're serious here. Give me a shot of that. :)
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 15:28:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater:
"For that matter why would they even need ships. Life on Earth has evolved to live under very harsh conditions. Bacteria has been to space on our rockets and lived.
If creatures -somewhere-evolved to live in outer space that would be no great stretch of the imagination. After all we evolved to live in oxygen-the most corrosive gas there is. Then you wouldn't need intelligence, or money to find the Earth."
No, no.., no. *L* Slater, ya joke, huh? "No great stretch ?!?" Well, OK, such a lifeform would have to rely on stellar radiation, then, for its sum and substance, no lungs or gut bag, to worry about. Communicate by signing, or some sort of esp? It would certainly have severe problems with interstellar travel, too. And, if it needed no planetary body to survive, Sol being nothing special as to it's radiation output, why would Earth be an attraction for it? No, can't accept that you're serious here. Give me a shot of that. :)
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
You know about those organisms found at volcanic vents on the bottom of the oceans. I bet if some of them evolved to sentience they would hold similar opinions about the likehood of life existing outside their environments, as you do about spaceborne life.
On the other hand an explorer of a type of intelligence that has evolved out there would likely be similar surprised about life on earth, as humans were to find life on the ocean floor.
I mean just see it from their point of view: Life trapped at the bottom of a gravity well of a planet actually existing inside its extremely dense atmosphere. How does that sound to a spaceborn creature?
Probably like the idea of life sustained by interplanetary radiation, that lives on those parts of the ground, that actually rise beyond the protection of ocean, would sound to a ocean bottom critter.
It is all a matter of perspective and imagination.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 15:56:43 [Permalink]
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And, if it needed no planetary body to survive, Sol being nothing special as to it's radiation output, why would Earth be an attraction for it?
To continue Lars analogy--I can't live at the bottom of the ocean. No air, too cold, too much pressure. But that doesn't stop me from having a nice lobster dinner now and then.
Why would Earth attract it? Snacks!
Hmmm the Chinese moon base; take out!
Of course I'm joking-this is a thread about flying saucers after all.
But evolution is a wonderful thing. Life forms evolved here on Earth that must live in boiling sea water.
NASA has the devils own time keeping their probes clean. Not because they are fastidious but because the conditions in outer space won't kill bacteria.
If there is "life" here on Earth that can tolerate space it's not a very big leap of the imagination to think that there is life elsewhere that might actually require space stay alive. We have found that a great deal of that "dust" that is between the stars is organic.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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