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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2002 : 17:15:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
A lot of S-F readers were shocked that the Pioneer spacecraft included a plaque that gave the location of the solar system. Open invitation to invasion?...
Don't think of it as an invitation to invasion, but as a trap. All those sci-fi authors who picture our encounter with aliens with for us disaterus results, really don't give mankind ebough credit. They underestimate our ability to destroy everything we might encounter and take advantage possibilities.
If it really comes down to US vs. Them I really would not be betting on Them. We have had to much experience killing each other and survinving in hostile environments to be easy prey.
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2002 : 11:02:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
If it really comes down to US vs. Them I really would not be betting on Them. We have had to much experience killing each other and survinving in hostile environments to be easy prey.
The problem with that assumption is that "They" haven't gone through exactly the same survival process as "We" have, but with the added factor of interstellar travel capability. That is, if they could pick up a Pioneer, figure out its message, and come here, they would probably be technically advanced far beyond us. We'd stand no more chance than a legion of Roman troops would against a modern armored division.
Personally, I don't see a real problem. First, it's likely to be many millennia before any alien species encounters a Pioneer (if ever), so we'll be doing some advancing too. [Side note: if anyone finds the Pioneers in the near future, it will be quite obvious which star they came from, so the plaque is a moot issue anyhow.]
But second, and most important, I believe the most likely species to encounter the Pioneers is us -- we'll pick them up as historical curiosities on our way to the stars. If we never get there, then it's most improbable that any other species has or will.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2002 : 11:09:19 [Permalink]
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This might not fit in to this thread, but I have a question about UFO reports.
I have noticed that it is very rare for an account of a UFO to mention a sonic boom or any noise at all. If there is mention of a sonic boom they are usually near an Airforce base.
The question is does an object travelling faster than the speed of sound 'have' to create a sonic boom? It just seems to me if these so called UFO's are flying so fast there should be sonic booms.
My personal opinion on aliens, (other than the movie) is that while there is likely life on other planets, we have not been visited. At least for not to the extent of the 100's of sightings reported every year. But I am doubtful that it has ever happened.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2002 : 11:32:56 [Permalink]
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Here's an article from the newsletter from E-Skeptic (Dr. Michael Shermer). Thought this was pretty interesting:
quote:
UFOs A SOCIO-CULTURAL PHENOMENON
Cold War hysteria sparked UFO obsession, study finds
Paul Harris Sunday May 5, 2002 The Observer
Budding Fox Mulders and Dana Scullys attracted to the mysteries of the
X-Files will be disappointed: a new book claims UFOs are all in the mind and
should be seen as a form of cultural mass hysteria.
British researchers, who uncovered thousands of previously secret government
and military reports and investigated dozens of sightings, have concluded
that flying saucers were a product of Cold War paranoia - not visitors from
outer space.
The study by David Clarke and Andy Roberts concluded that none of the
evidence pointed to any form of alien contact. Instead the widespread belief
in UFOs that began in the 1950s and lasted until the present day should be
seen as a social phenomenon.
Clarke said that the UFO craze began at the start of the Cold War, when the
new threat of atomic war with the Soviet Union hung over the world. 'It was
just simple to want to believe in something up there in the sky that could
come and rescue us,' he said.
Many of the early UFO sightings were seemingly confirmed by Britain's
fledgling radar system, often scrambling fighter planes into the sky to
investigate sightings. But, as the new technology improved, the number of
incidents appearing on radar quickly dwindled to zero. 'That cannot be a
coincidence. Those early confirmations were just a product of a primitive
radar system,' Clarke said.
But Clarke and Roberts, whose research is to be published this week in a book
called Out of the Shadows , did uncover evidence that the American Secret
Service, with the possible connivance of the British, looked at ways of using
the public panic over UFOs as a psychological weapon against the Russians.
In CIA memos marked 'secret' and seen by The Observer, top officials consider
exploiting the UFO craze. 'I suggest that we discuss the possible offensive
or defensive utilisation of these phenomena for psychological warfare
purposes,' wrote CIA director Walter Smith in 1952.
'Shortly after that meeting the CIA sent a delegation to Britain to discuss
UFOs. It is hard to imagine that they did not discuss the psychological
warfare aspects of it with their British counterparts,' Clarke said.
Clarke, who started out as a believer in UFOs but is now a sceptic, said that
the belief in alien visitation had once reached up to the highest positions
in government. Prime Minister Winston Churchill once ordered an investigation
into it and Lord Mountbatten was a firm believer in flying saucers. In the
1950s Britain set up a flying saucer working party of top Ministers and army
staff. 'That is why this field is important for academic research. It did
have an impact on government policy at a crucial stage in history,' he said.
One scrap of consolation for conspiracy theorists is evidence that the
British and US Governments did embark on a systematic cover-up of UFO
sightings, especially by military pilots. Reports were kept secret and
military personnel told not to talk about them. But Clarke believes that such
actions were taken, not to disguise contact with aliens, but because the
Government did not want to admit that it too could not explain the UFO
hysteria.
It is a different story now. The Observer revealed last year that the secret
army intelligence unit tasked with examining UFO reports has now quietly
disbanded.
People weren't seeing anything mysterious. They were just being silly.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2002 : 11:36:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
The question is does an object travelling faster than the speed of sound 'have' to create a sonic boom?
If it is traveling in air, yes.
Even small objects create a sonic boom. When the tip of a bull whip makes that CRACK!!! it isn't because it's slapping against itself. It's because the tip is breaking the sound barrier.
Flying Saucers don't have a sonic boom because their "observers" don't realize they would have to make one.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2002 : 13:53:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
If it is traveling in air, yes.
Even small objects create a sonic boom. When the tip of a bull whip makes that CRACK!!! it isn't because it's slapping against itself. It's because the tip is breaking the sound barrier.
Flying Saucers don't have a sonic boom because their "observers" don't realize they would have to make one.
Opus and Slater have brought up an interesting point here. If I remember my reading of "The Devils of Loudon" correctly, one aspect of the "possessions" was that the only demons who spoke Latin were those "possessing" nuns who had some knowledge of the language, and the quality of their Latin correlated nicely with the level of knowledge of the possessee. Of course, at the time nobody thought this fact suggestive.
I guess that as a rule of thumb, if the discrepancies in a claim mirror the state of knowledge (or lack of it) of the claimant, our spider-sense should start tingling.
Ford, there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out. |
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Paulnib68
New Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2002 : 20:01:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
If it is traveling in air, yes.
Even small objects create a sonic boom. When the tip of a bull whip makes that CRACK!!! it isn't because it's slapping against itself. It's because the tip is breaking the sound barrier.
Flying Saucers don't have a sonic boom because their "observers" don't realize they would have to make one.
This corollation between human expectations and understandings and ufo sighting descriptions is evident throughout the whole enigma.
This failure to recognize there should be sonic booms is just another example.
The lights described for instance are another. What use are flashing lights on an alien spaceship? Collision avoidence? Id or markers?
All useless on spacecraft. Given the extreme speeds attributed to such craft a collision avoidence light isn't going to be much help. Besides, an asteriod or meteorite isn't going to move out of the way.
Id lighting is pretty obvious. They're hiding from us right?
Anyways, these lights are the result of two things. Misid's of regular aircraft, and deliberate duplicity. In the case of hoaxed reports, the lights are described as they are because this is what people generally expect of aircraft at night. They completely fail to take into consideration the pointless nature of these things. They also help a lot when physically hoaxing a sighting such as photo's etc. Can't get a picture at night if it doesn't have lights on it.
Same problems with physical descriptions of aliens. Humanoid enough for recognition but different enough to be considered alien. Thanks to the media it didn't take much imagination on the part of the public. "The Eyes That Spoke" details a very good possibility of this happening in the Hills case.
Just another fine example suggesting the human origin of aliens. But of course, believers will tell you they are alien ships so they don't have to adhere to our "human" expectations right? Always found that ironic considering how they adhere to human expectations.
Skeptics Tricks |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 08:54:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Opus mentioned:
This might not fit in to this thread, but I have a question about UFO reports.
I have noticed that it is very rare for an account of a UFO to mention a sonic boom or any noise at all. If there is mention of a sonic boom they are usually near an Airforce base.
As I thought about how it might be physically possible to fly a SpaceCraft at high speeds through air without a sonic boom (--I couldn't think of any--), I came up with a very sound [yuk] solution which implies that a sonic boom shouldn't be heard.
Donnie B. wrote in part:quote:
The problem with that assumption is that "They" haven't gone through exactly the same survival process as "We" have, but with the added factor of interstellar travel capability. That is, if they could pick up a Pioneer, figure out its message, and come here, they would probably be technically advanced far beyond us. We'd stand no more chance than a legion of Roman troops would against a modern armored division.
I think that Donnie B. is very, very wrong in this. Maybe in science fiction, but in real life mounting even an inter-planetary invasion would be exceptionally costly, chancy, and difficult much less trying to discuss an inter-stellar invasion force.
Recall, for instance, how hard we had to work--and how long it took--just to cross the Channel at Normandy. Recall that the might of NAZI Germany chose to invade Russia rather than attempt to cross the Channel. Recall that the last time even the [relatively] narrow Channel was crossed by a major invading force was in 1066 A.D. Recall that we never did mount a cross-Pacific invasion of Japan;--we staged in [relatively] nearby Australia and, even then, we 'island hopped' our way to Japan.
InterStellar invasion force? I think: "Next to impossible!"
Now to why there shouldn't be any sonic booms.
There might possibly be an exploration or recon force right here, right now. Almost assuredly they would be so weak--no matter how advanced their military technology--that they wouldn't dare provoke anything. They might, in fact, choose to stay "in deep cover" as exploratory or recon forces frequently do. ("When in Rome, do as the Romans.")
On the other hand, it would behoove such a force, no matter how minor its arms, to give a generalized picture of the superiority of interplanetary or interstellar peoples. ("Generalized" since they might be trying to stay well-hidden: No rubber tank-armies such as U.S. Gen. George Patton used.) It might be difficult but I suspect that someone knowledgable in laser technology would agree that it might be possible to create a holograph of a SpaceCraft flying through the Earthly atmosphere. (I recall a StarTrek_I episode, for example; but such a holograph might well have a ground-based origin.)
Lots of windows and lights in such a holographic SpaceCraft--"Let's wow the natives" would be the underlying purpose. Also sharp (--seemingly physically impossible--) turns.
Holographs, however, make no sonic booms. 
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 09:55:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
it might be possible to create a holograph of a SpaceCraft flying through the Earthly atmosphere.
Fox has shown a couple of times a wonderful show called (something like) The Best Proof Yet of UFOs.
After showing some footage of a Central American parade that had flying over it a mylar baloon complete with string that some poor kid had lost they showed a flying saucer hovering over a city at night. This was taken from inside someones apartment through a closed window. The UFO disappeared with such speed that no Earthly aircraft could match-AND NO SONIC BOOM.
The only problem with this "holograph" was that you could see it was the reflection in the window of a desk lamp. When it was switched off the filament still glowed for a few seconds.
But Fox was being honest, this is the best proof we have of UFOs.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 11:14:09 [Permalink]
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Holograph eh? Well that still does not answer the basic question of whether there should be a sonic boom or not. I beieve there should be, but do not want to use it as a reason not to believe in alien spacecraft until I know there is no science that says it does not have to be. I have tried e-mailing the odd Physics prof in the past. No Response. Maybe they did not want to give the time or thought I was a nut case.
At any rate I do believe that for reports of those UFO's in the atmosphere it is very telling that there are few reports of sonic booms.
I am also a fledgling star gazer. To date I have seen 0 UFO's and do not know anyone that has seem one. You would think that the astronomy community would have seen some by now. They have the equipment to get a good look at any unusual objects in the sky. Believe me they would love to get the first real proof.
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Wiley
Skeptic Friend
68 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 12:22:32 [Permalink]
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Would UFO's cause a sonic boom?
First, what causes a sonic boom? A sonic boom is a pressure shock caused by the air displacement. This displacement is aerodynamic inefficiency. We all know that UFO technology is near 100% efficient and we would perturb the surrounding air very little. Thus no shock wave, no boom.
I now remove tongue from cheek and return to work
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 12:40:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Would UFO's cause a sonic boom?
First, what causes a sonic boom? A sonic boom is a pressure shock caused by the air displacement. This displacement is aerodynamic inefficiency. We all know that UFO technology is near 100% efficient and we would perturb the surrounding air very little. Thus no shock wave, no boom.
I now remove tongue from cheek and return to work
OK - well, if you want to go for a "fun" explanation...perhaps:
The same negative energy technology that allows them to move over a distance of light-years (in much less than years, if not a few hours) also allows them to avoid shockwaves in planet atmospheres. They must be renewing their atomic structure micro second by micro second, as they manipulate their atavacrons and interocitors! So they didn't design their ships to avoid sonic booms, it's just a dividend of their interstellar technology.
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 17:03:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Donnie B. wrote in part:quote:
The problem with that assumption is that "They" haven't gone through exactly the same survival process as "We" have, but with the added factor of interstellar travel capability. That is, if they could pick up a Pioneer, figure out its message, and come here, they would probably be technically advanced far beyond us. We'd stand no more chance than a legion of Roman troops would against a modern armored division.
I think that Donnie B. is very, very wrong in this. Maybe in science fiction, but in real life mounting even an inter-planetary invasion would be exceptionally costly, chancy, and difficult much less trying to discuss an inter-stellar invasion force.
The Normandy invasion on D-Day was a contest of roughly equal forces and technologies.
For a better analogy, consider Francisco Pizarro's conquest of the Incan Empire. He had a force of about 180 men armed with muskets and light artillery. He conquered an empire extending over thousands of square kilometers, with a standing army of 30,000 men. But those men were armed with stone-age technology.
It's entirely possible that a single starship could pack enough punch to defeat all of Earth's forces without breaking a sweat -- assuming a starship existed at all, and bothered to come here.
As far as the notion of a sonic-boom-free aircraft goes, I think it's no less likely than an interstellar spacecraft is. All you have to do is move the parcel of air that's ahead of you out of the way, and the best place to put it is behind you. If you can figure out how to do it, you have both the propulsion system and the de-boomerator, all in one technology.
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Paulnib68
New Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2002 : 18:49:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
[quote]
As far as the notion of a sonic-boom-free aircraft goes, I think it's no less likely than an interstellar spacecraft is. All you have to do is move the parcel of air that's ahead of you out of the way, and the best place to put it is behind you. If you can figure out how to do it, you have both the propulsion system and the de-boomerator, all in one technology.
-- Donnie B.
Isn't the displacement of air what creates the sonic boom? Seems you would have to "move" it awfuly fast without any violent effects this speed would cause. How anyone could achieve this isn't clear.
All you have to do? Seems a pretty tall order within the realm of pure speculation. But then again you said it's no less likely than an alien interstellar craft. That would make it pretty unlikely.
Skeptics Tricks |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2002 : 10:01:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Isn't the displacement of air what creates the sonic boom? Seems you would have to "move" it awfuly fast without any violent effects this speed would cause. How anyone could achieve this isn't clear.
And also - if they could somehow solve the enormous problem of traveling at the speed of light, circumventing the pesky problem of infinite mass, and be able to travel trillions of miles, why would they bother with the additional problems of trying to be quiet in some tiny planet's atmosphere? Seems like it would be easier to just "fly" slowly and (if they wanted to), have technology that makes them invisible to radar or vision.
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan |
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