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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 10/27/2001 : 21:21:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, I'm not sure what I can add. Hot air balloon is a very good guess from my description, but I ruled that out since I am familiar with them and have flown them. At that distance on a still night conversation in the gondola (or drunken singing) could have been heard, and the ignition of gas makes noise and a momentarily brighter glow. Occasional bursts of flame would be needed to maintain a steady hover height for several minutes. In case I wasn't clear, it was an object, not a light. The object glowed in three colors.
The fabric of the balloon does *glow*. Any haze/humidity in the air would also work to make an apparent *glow* effect. It would also dampen the sound. Your profile says Florida (if I recall...), which is humid.
quote:
One would expect a sonic boom from an object that is one place one instant and miles away the next. I have tried, but cannot find an explanation, because the objects behavior is to this day not even closely approximated by our aircraft, experimental or not.
How do you *know* how fast this thing was moving? Without actually clocking the object the concept of speed and acceleration is highly subjective. There are things that can cause an apparent rapidity where it's not present as Slater described with the Coast Guard lights.
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Since 1947, people in this country have blamed sightings that could otherwise not be explained on experimental military aircraft. However, to this day we still have no terrestrial craft that doesn't just hover, or run almost silently, or go very fast, but actually appears to defy gravity.
Many of these explanations are valid, there is no blame involved in persons sighting military craft (some of which are strange) and assuming it as something else. I am familiar with many different types of military craft and was for a time continually surprised at the varying degrees of sound that these things actually make or do not make. I had a C5 Galaxy take off over my head - it was actually surprisingly quiet for a craft of that size, I remember most the low thrum I felt in my chest as it passed over. A-6s whistle and make a considerable amount of noise - they actually make more noise than the C5 (IMO). I've seen some aircraft that are noisy or quiet because of the way the exhaust exits the engines - the reason the A-6 whistles. It's not impossible to build a craft that is virtually silent.
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This story is actually true, and believe it or not I am not a moron. From what I witnessed, the usual answers of airplanes, balloons, searchlights, etc. are preposterous.
As has been pointed out, and I'm sure you've pointed out, if as you say you've debunked UFO sightings - the jump from unidentified flying object to alien craft is not always the logical jump. Occasionally we must leave something as unexplained, no matter our desire to tuck it away in a neat little corner.
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I honestly think that given this experience even the most sincere skeptic would reconsider the hard line and allow for the possibility of a technology that is beyond our present capabilities. So, do we believe our own eyes, so to speak, even if it goes against the tenets of our faith?
I've taken no hard line here. I don't necessarily consider an alien intelligence visiting our nothing special star in our nothing special corner of the galaxy as the most obvious or simplest of explanations. Occams Razor. Tenets of Faith? I leave faith to those who desire something beyond themselves. I want to know, and not knowing am unlikely to jump to conclusions regarding it's origin.
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Or do we say, "I saw it, but since I never saw it before, and no one has proven its existence to my satisfaction, it cannot exist."
No you file it under unusual and unexplained until I can find solid proof of it's origin. No jump in logic required here.
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I'm really not out to convince anyone of anything. I don't have the tools to do so, and I don't care what anyone believes about anything (unless of course that belief infringes on my rights). I don't mind telling this story to anyone, and some folks say it just confirms what they already knew, others say there must be another explanation because of what they already know.
What I already know regarding this wonderful universe in which we find ourselves would not even occupy the space on the head of a pin. However, I can operate on the premise that unidentifiable and unexplained does not necessarily equate with religiocity, aliens or mysticism. There is an explanation and you do yourself a disservice for taking the easy one. It may take you years to find an answer to the question of "WTF was that?", but isn't it better to know than to assume?
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I am skeptical by nature, and I'll believe it when I see it. Well, I saw it. So drum me out of the Skeptics if you must for I have committed the sin of changing a belief.
It's not changing your opinion or *belief* but rather the steps by which you followed to change the opinion. You've made a leap from unidentified to alien craft. Unfortunately, that leap may be from point a to point x instead of b. Re-examine your evidence and set aside the bias of *it must be alien since I can't explain it* and see if you can find an alternate explanation that follows the simplest explanation is probably correct more closely.
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Thanks to everyone who has tried to address the issue seriously rather than just throw rocks at the infidel.
Your welcome.
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I still am curious if anyone else thinks it is possible to experience something that could change a long-held belief.
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 14:41:21 [Permalink]
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Why won't this thread die? On me browser, the thread keeps showing Trish's post from Oct. as current?!?
Found this article on the subject of SETI, some might enjoy it, anyway.
If we find them, what will we say?
IMHO we shouldn't try to be too clever with any message sent, though. Seems it should reflect it's "humanity-ness" primarily, and trust they will be motivated and clever enough, to decode it. Our 'spoken word,' is the underpinning of our 'written word,' what if they don't have ears? *L*
What ET says about us
Beating that ol' dead horse, ran accross this outfit. Interesting approach..?
Composing our message
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
Edited by - NubiWan on 02/21/2002 11:59:54
Edited by - NubiWan on 03/12/2002 22:28:00 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 15:38:52 [Permalink]
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Sorry Nubiwan, but everytime someone votes on a poll thread, the browser will show that it has a new post, but lists the last actual poster as the, um, poster. Does that make sense? Anyway, it's because someone voted.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 12/20/2001 : 21:07:11 [Permalink]
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Oh.., of course. Thanks TD.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Igrokit
New Member
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2002 : 21:45:03 [Permalink]
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Well since I voted, I will also post.
I voted for exist but not visited earth. However, like the first responder, I think advanced civilizations are probably pretty rare and that it is at least possible we are the only such civilization in this galaxy.
I was pursuaded of this in a book called Rare Earth, which though admitedly flawed, seemed to make a pretty good case that advanced life may not be as common as we think.
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2002 : 06:47:15 [Permalink]
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Well, I didn't vote, but thought that this web page might be interesting. Seeme we're developing a little UFO cult group.
http://www.billymeier.com/
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2002 : 14:42:16 [Permalink]
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His picts look remarkably like hubcaps. But I have problems with the lighting and some of the picts have no shadow of the thing on the ground, also, he doesn't seem to take many pics where he captures the shadow. Specifically, the pic of the UFO over the bus. Um, seems the bus would be in shadow.
Not to brag or anything - but my pics of UFOs would be better - just as soon as I create the UFO in the computer and align and adjust the camera angles and the lighting - you'd never know. (I love animation.)
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There is no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our world. It underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've known. Sagan |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2002 : 23:31:01 [Permalink]
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[quote]
His picts look remarkably like hubcaps.
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Ya, those were that planets old model- the new ones look much more convincing and sinister.
I seriously question whether any of the UFO sightings I've read about are of other than Earthly and/or imaginary origin… the evidence is just too sketchy, at best. It seems at minimum possible, and maybe probable, that intelligent life of some sort exists out there somewhere, despite whatever SETI has to say thus far (SETI's barely scratched a grain of sand on the beach) but I doubt they've seen fit to (or been able to) visit. In "The Demon Haunted World," Sagan offers an interesting psychological explanation for the commonalities of those with first-hand UFO experiences. It has an eerie feel of credibility. Although I liked watching "Alien," "The Thing," and all the rest, somehow, I'm not worried. On the other hand, until about 2 years ago, I had mostly dismissed the possibility of extraterrestrial visitation due to the distances and velocities required, and other problems with interstellar travel we anticipate (Asimov described these as well as anybody, which is typical of Asimov.) Then I had opportunity to speak with a physicist who's pet-interest was quantum mechanics/relativity. He refuted most of the far-fetched relativity stuff we see constantly in scifi TV/movies (time travel, "Warp 5, Scottie", etc.) but said that the "wormhole" bit is actually possible- that is, a wormhole is created, an object enters- and exits at a distant point in space. Of course, we have no idea how to create such a wormhole, but this seems to at least suggest the possibility that scaling these distances- and ending up in one piece, within a sane period of time- might exist, even within the bounds of our knowledge. So, who knows? Too bad they're probably a few thousand years from receiving our prime-time TV shows- otherwise, they DEFINITELY wouldn't visit.
Ron White |
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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 05:16:27 [Permalink]
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I voted "I really don't know, and I really don't care," even though I don't agree with the second part of the conjunction. I do not believe that intelligent extraterrestrials have visited the earth, but regard the question as to whether intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe unanswered. On the one hand, Sagan, who many of you have already mentioned, makes a compelling argument that given the vastness of the universe, it is highly unlikely that our planet is the only one which has evolved intelligent life. Others counter that if this were the case, and interstellar travel is possible, we would have already encountered at least one alien race. As some of you have already stated, there may be a problem with the latter assumption--perhaps interstellar travel, of the sort we read about in science fiction novels, either violates some ineluctable law of physics or is too costly and/or inefficient to sustain over long distances. Nonetheless, I believe that projects such as SETI are important, insofar as they give us our best hope of contacting any alien races that may exist--since we still don't know for sure, we might as well try our best to gather more data.
"When did ignorance become a point of view?"
--Dilbert |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2002 : 19:02:24 [Permalink]
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[font=Verdena]
Wormholes are still theoretical objects. Intriguing objects nonetheless, and no more peculiar than that they're a solution to the Einstein Equations from the General Theory of Relativity. Like black holes.
But aside from what Mr. White writes about the aliens having to find out that we're here there's also the question: Why on Earth (no pun intented) would aliens travel the vast reaches of space and not just land on some open square, step out and say "hi"?
Alien lore is a new religion. If you travel the I-net you'll learn about evil reptile master aliens, servant insectoid greys as well as angelic benevolent humanoid aliens. Who, by the way, do not interfere because "we have to learn by ourselves." That's religion for you there!
A ufo is just that: An unidentified flying object. It is not an alien spacecraft. If it was, it wouldn't be "unidentified".
[/font=Verdana]
"In my opinion, nothing occurs contrary to nature except the impossible, and that never occurs." Galileo Galilei |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 16:08:45 [Permalink]
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To paraphrase Walt Kelly,
"We have met the aliens, and they is us."
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 04:51:25 [Permalink]
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I've always been curious about this anthropocentric view of evrything we dream up - non-immigrant aliens included. Why are we so self absorbed that even our ET's have to be just like us. Okay, so they have big heads and little bodies these days, but they are still patterned like us, even down to the mad scientist alien abduction stories. Why do we assume that aliens even care? Or for that matter, why do we suppose that we would even recognize another intelligent life form if we met it? How can we be sure that aliens are even carbon based life forms, and that we would know that they are animate? Wow, I'm beginning to sound like a bizarre cross between Ben Bova and Carl Sagan. I'll shut up, now.
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2002 : 18:31:04 [Permalink]
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Tim> Carbon is and element that binds very easily to other elements, and therefore it's a good one to build life on. Also, I don't think the idea that E.T.s might look somewhat like us is that farfetched.
To have life you do require a few things. A star that lives for long enough so life can evolve on a planet in orbit around it (took about 1.5 billion years here on Earth, before life evolved). A planet in the habitable zone, where you have water in its three phases. Solid, liquid and vapour. Water is a good “primordial soup”, and stabilises temperatures.
Life is rather fragile. If it's 0 degrees Celcius we think it's freezing, 25 degrees and it's a nice warm day. That seen in contrast to temperatures in space that various from –273 to millions of degrees.
It can't be too cold, or nothing will evolve or happen, because the molecules move too slowly. If it's too hot complex molecules get ripped apart.
So an Earth-like planet is a very good guess and a place to look for intelligent life. It would need something like hands to build tools and complexes machines. Sensory organs, and wouldn't live in water. You try building something in water, it's nearly impossible.
The human has done quite well. We worked in groups to further our survival, have all our sensory organs up high so we can see, hear and smell around us. Legs so we can walk and could run away from predators in the past.
So, I don't think we'll be seeing the evil purple octopus-species from (insert star-name)
It's got nothing to do with being geocentric. More that it worked well here, why should it be so remarkable?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 09:39:05 [Permalink]
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I liken the argument that et life might be so different from us that we wouldn't recognize it to the argument that there is a god but he's disinterested and doesn't intervene.
If that's the case, then what's the point in looking for it or believing it's there. If we won't recognize different life, then don't look for different life as it has no discernible impact. Look for life that matters.
My kids still love me. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2002 : 10:05:39 [Permalink]
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Re: Life but not as we know it.
I think many people trying to imagine what aliens look like suffer from a to narrow definition of life.
In fact all it would actually take to evolve selfawareness would be some sort of self-replicating pattern.
The whole idea about earth like planets and carbon based life just makes to many assumptions. Anything goes!
The problem of recognizing it should in my opinion not be as unsolvable. Yes, for some of the more 'alien' ET's out there it could be a problem to actually notice them not to mention attempting communication.
What it boils down to in every case is mathematics. Not just for communication but for recognizing the life itself. We might not expect to find 'life' when studying phenomenons in places and on scales that we would never associate with biology, but if we see a pattern that constitutes life somebody will know what it means.
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