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ZaphodBeeblebrox
Skeptic Friend
USA
117 Posts |
 Posted - 10/23/2001 : 08:23:04 [Permalink]
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What you, also, possibly saw was a Commericial Airliner, coming by at an odd angle.
Your eyes can play tricks on you, especially with flying objects, because the Brain, can't Instinctively handle it.
In fact, one time I was at a Stop Light, near MHT, and an Airplane came in low, right over the road. Between the Odd Angle, and the Weird Juxtaposition, it appeared to be Impossibly Huge, and Hanging in the Sky. If it had been dark, I don't know what I would have thought, but even in the Late Afternoon, it looked just like a Blown-Up Still Picture!
If you Ignore Your Rights, they WILL, go away. |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2001 : 10:40:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
OK, Lisa. Just for you.
I'm touched.
Seriously, I'll concede that was you saw does sound pretty weird. However, I'd still search for a mundane explanation rather than a fantastic one.
Lisa
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2001 : 10:44:48 [Permalink]
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Does anyone see why I said the details of this anecdote would be useless? I know if a thinking person hears such a tale, they imagine it to not really be quite as described, so it can fit into what they already think. That is exactly what I still do. We all do it.
We all SHOULD do it. It's called "common sense."
The part of this story that I find hardest to believe is that 3 grown men would be so perverse and inhuman as to play poker 'til the wee hours and not have anything to drink. It sends a chill up my Gaelic spine just to think of it. The host should be shot.
And what "details" would those be that you refer to? You just told a vague story with almost no details in it.
I'll just say that the laws of physics were violated in that when leaving the area, the "craft" did not accelerate to maximum speed, it STARTED at speed.
That is strange. A bullet, however, fired from a snub-nosed revolver attains a speed near that of sound even before it leaves the barrel of the gun, a distance of less than 3 inches, without violating any of the natural laws.
I think we can assume that whatever you saw, no matter how fast it accelerated, over how short a distance, did not violate any laws of physics.
It was far enough away so as to disappear in a second. It looked like a tracer bullet, only faster.
The "object" as you described it was a tri colored light. Frankly, it sounds exactly like someone was shining a halogen light at you and then quickly turned it away. It would also explain why it made no sound and the air made no sound with something moving that fast passing through it. If it were faster than a tracer bullet then there would have been a sonic boom even if the craft itself were silent.
That would make it a candidate for Fox's Best Proof Ever of UFOs--on the last show they had a desk lamp reflected in a window. The "UFO" disappeared as though some one threw a switch.
This might also explain why your friends never mention it.
Did you see a physical object ? You didn't mention one. Did it have markings? Did it have seams? Were there any signs of fasteners-- welds, bolts --or was it one solid piece?
You haven't given any details, you know
If we had this technology, why the hell was it so difficult and expensive for us to go to Mars?
You haven't actually described any technology at all. Just a zippy light. How do you know how much it cost or if it could go into space?
Why does the military still depend on fossil fuel to fly their planes?
Are you saying that you know what this thing you saw used for fuel?
Actually seeing it makes all the difference, but I know it's not a convincing story, but everyone insisted on hearing it so they could disprove it.
Oh, I'm sorry. You're looking for the Credulous Friends Network. Their URL is just down the hall. Third Web-site on the left. This is the SKEPTIC Friends Network.
Any photos or video I might have taken, if I had thought of it at the time, could have been faked, so this whole thing falls into the realm of angels, fairies and spooks.
This seems more like paranoia than paranormal.
You don't have any proof, but we wouldn't believe the proof even if you had it. There must be something wrong with us then.
If anyone really has ever been abducted, their life must be hell on earth
trying to convince people (BTW, I doubt abductions, but now must allow for at least the possibility). I've seen something I can't explain away, and neither could anyone else who actually experienced it. Have a nice day.
Where the hell did this "back story" come from?
A light moves over some trees and becomes extra terrestrials, broken laws of physics, space flight and abductions.
How does a fast moving red, white and blue light become all that? One thing does not logically lead to the other. You'll never be able to explain ("away") anything if you resort to fantasy right out of the gate.
You really aren't interested in explanations though, are you? The pretty lights make you a special person, with experiences no one else can understand. Nobody can ever know what you know.
Right.
"Have a nice day" yourself.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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HardCore
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2001 : 04:08:00 [Permalink]
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Oops! My bad. I'm sure it was a commercial airliner after all. I hadn't thought of that. Sorry for all the confusion.
Why is the Popemobile bulletproof? |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2001 : 14:41:07 [Permalink]
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More likely an unusally shaped hot-air balloon, that sprung a leak, shooting off to god knows where...  There, now you can sleep better, no, don't thank me. Thank you, Hardcore, for sharing your experience, and as you astutely admit, it proves nothing to anyone but you. Have seen a few things flying about, that me couldn't explain either, though there may well be an explaination for them, most likely so. Haven't found anything, that would match the events, yet, and they weren't nearly as incredible as the one you discribed.
Slater, you as usual, make excelent points, but why do you have to belittle the guy? Just letting your the points stand on their own merit, would serve just as well, IMO. BTW B-2's aren't silent. It's that predisposition to ridicule, that seems to reign on this BB, that inhibits the full expression and exploration of the topics raised here, me tinks so. Made a few posts here, inviting some of the muslins, that might be lurking, to engage on current events. No responses, of course. Realized that anyone, who might hold beliefs of any kind, wouldn't feel welcomed by those, who place their faith in random chance as being their creator and seem compelled to resort to ridicule, here. What was i thinking?!?  None of us would find being ridiculed, interesting for very long. Huh? Makes the SFN a good place to meet for company of like minds, but produces rather one sided conversations.
Er.., uh, what was me doing here! Oh yeah...
For what its worth, join with those, "Don't know, but am very interested," on this thread's topic. Am a 'retired' SETI at Home cruncher starting from me ol' Amiga putter days, but gave it up about six months ago. The probabilities, given the size, and numbers of stars within the known universe, would certainly suggest, that humanity can't be the sole "intelligent" lifeform to exist within it. Given the number of SETI projects active, and no "interesting," "unsual signals," or "possible," reports released, Fermi's point is growing more likely, IMO. Tend to think, that we just aren't looking in the 'right' way, yet. And having been a active witness to the evolution of formats to transmit and receive data, over just the past few decades, not certain we would recognize a "true alien" signal, should we actually recieve one.
Chippewa made some excellent observations on the topic, me tinks. They are alien after all, even the term, intelligence, is a human concept and a self-serving one. Communication requires having something to say, transmit, and a willing listener, a receiver. If "they" have a few hundred years head start on us, what of interest, other than perhaps, "We are here," would we have to say to "them?" Should "Quantum Communication," (insantaneous transmition and reception), ever prove to be viable, "robotic-avatars" would be the way to scout out the neighborhood for any possible colony sites, and to do general exploration. 
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 03:31:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Makes the SFN a good place to meet for company of like minds, but produces rather one sided conversations.
Not really. It more accurately produces conversations that ultimately are forced to comply with the rigors of skeptical thought. Perhaps we rush more quickly to those rigors when it comes to religion and paranormal topics, but we rush there eventually on all topics (go back and read gun control and global warming threads--you'll find as much stuff approaching ridicule there as anywhere else but ultimately everyone was forced to put up or shut up).
quote:
Chippewa made some excellent observations on the topic, me tinks. They are alien after all, even the term, intelligence, is a human concept and a self-serving one.
"Intelligence" is a self-serving term? How?
This is silliness. Of course "alien" and "intelligence" are human concepts. Should we come up with non-human concepts? Please demonstrate just one for me, please.
Ditto for the idea that calling 'them' the 'aliens' is somehow xenophobic. This is just a bit too politically correct. I can't see the sense in calling ourselves alien. The term itself has no negative connotations; it is merely a descriptor and as such does not apply to us. I, for one, when approached by ET will not say "Ooh. Alien. Yuck!" I'll more likely say "Ooh. Alien. Cool!"
(Edited for grammar)
My kids still love me.
Edited by - Garrette on 10/26/2001 03:33:27 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 09:02:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater, .. but why do you have to belittle the guy? Just letting your the points stand on their own merit, would serve just as well, IMO. BTW B-2's aren't silent.
The guy came here and told us that he wasn't going to tell us something because we were too closed minded. Then when he had his story coaxed out of him he says See? There ya go! Any details offered will be "explained" by someone who wasn't there. I am still a skeptic. I'm just not blind. Sorry. Christian fundamentalists won't accept evolution because in their worldview it simply cannot exist since it goes contrary to their Bible. Everyone should open his mind,just a little.
I take that as "a shot across the bow."
(and I couldn't help but notice that someone else made a comment about a balloon with it's air rushing out that was-though very funny-a little less than kind)
Yes, I know that B-2s make noise. This one must have been powered down--it wasn't going very fast. I couldn't hear it over the background city noise, which is always considerable. And, truth be told, I lost the hearing in my right ear in 'Nam. So I'm not the best witness about what sounds it made.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 11:26:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes, I know that B-2s make noise. This one must have been powered down--it wasn't going very fast. I couldn't hear it over the background city noise, which is always considerable. And, truth be told, I lost the hearing in my right ear in 'Nam. So I'm not the best witness about what sounds it made.[slater]
My family lives about 10 miles away from an Air Force base that is home to a squadron of C-130 4 engine turboprop transport aircraft. They regularly practice is twos and threes simulating low-level cargo and troop airdrops. FAA altitude minimums in the country are 500 feet, but these suckers regularly push two hundred feet or less. On their way back to the base, the C-130s often fly over our property.
Our house is situated in rural farm country on the side of a hill. On our way back from a movie at night one of these hot-shots saw us pulling into our driveway. He throttled back, shut off his lights and glided across our back meadow towards the barn. About 500 feet from the barn, he flipped on his landing lights, hit the throttles and literally skipped over the roof.
I never heard the bastard until he filled the windshield of my car with one monster airplane. I'm sure the flight crew had a good laugh on that one. 
(:raig |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 12:32:32 [Permalink]
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Garrette
quote:
Not really. It more accurately produces conversations that ultimately are forced to comply with the rigors of skeptical thought.
Doubt that, many would more likely to just walk away. Within these "rigors of skeptical thought," are personal attacks considered a legitimate refute of an ideal? Dunno for sure, but doubt it. Where might these "rigors" be listed? Don't get me wrong, however, the 'ideal,' itself, is fair game IMO.., uh, except for mine of course.
quote:
"Intelligence" is a self-serving term? How?
IMO humanity has used its self proclaimed 'intelligence,' as justification of its superiority and dominion, over the planet and all life and resources on it. Yet, with all of our 'intelligence,' we behave just like a cancerous growth, over breeding and consuming, till its host will become unable to support it. Just doesn't seem so damned 'intelligent' to me.
quote:
This is silliness. Of course "alien" and "intelligence" are human concepts. Should we come up with non-human concepts? Please demonstrate just one for me, please.
Can't of course, nor need to when communicating with other humans. The attempt at the point was, when dealing with an "alien intelligence," not to impose our preconceptions upon what a signal's parameters should be, to carry data. How many bits would we need to convey, "Situation AOK, proceeding," for example. A single Beep of "their's," may be contain enough information for "them" to know to pick up a couple of cartons of milk before dropping off the kids, and to fill up the transport with fuel. You get the ideal. And since "they" really have nothing to say to us, any signal we might detect, won't be intended for us. Of course at this point in time, we are just trying to detect any artifical singal. How tight might "their" beams be, how much leakage might there be, for us to detect a signal? What medium might an advanced civilization use, radio, light, quantium entanglement...?!? Just have come to having little expectation of actually detecting a signal of alien origin, even if there were many such civilizations, "out there."
quote:
Ditto for the idea that calling 'them' the 'aliens' is somehow xenophobic. This is just a bit too politically correct. I can't see the sense in calling ourselves alien. The term itself has no negative connotations; it is merely a descriptor and as such does not apply to us. I, for one, when approached by ET will not say "Ooh. Alien. Yuck!" I'll more likely say "Ooh. Alien. Cool!"
Doult it, if you were all alone at night. Mmmm? *L* Don't know where you're coming from, here. Is this your ideal, or do you think its mine? Mmmm.., welp, it anit mine, politically correct or not.
Slater;
Dunno, Hardcore can speak for himself, but do see what you're saying. Don't think the shot was meant for your bow, more likely it was aimed at the brilliant refute, "Oh boo-yoo...," which then proceeds to confess an ignorance of english and to repeat one of your points. As you say, his story was 'coaxed' from him, it seemed to me, that he expected to be slammed, and we obliged a bit too willingly. *shrug*
quote:
Yes, I know that B-2s make noise. This one must have been powered down--it wasn't going very fast. I couldn't hear it over the background city noise, which is always considerable.
Interesting. Did you then confirm, that a flight of a B-2 indeed, had done a flyover of your area? Seems like it would have had to be pretty low, to notice the 'blinking out' of stars in a distinguishable triangular shape. Think the light level would be fairly high, down by the Civic Center, too, so only the brighter stars would be visable, unless you were up in the panhandle of GG park. Huh? Well, you had the first-hand experience, and seem satisfied with the B-2 explaination. It did strike me, thou, as sounding similar to something, that have heard rumors about, and lpetrich, even posted a link to an article about it. It's called something like a "neutral buoyancy cargo carrier," it is supposedely being quietly tested, its huge, triangular, and moves rather slowly. Just a thought, doubt they would fly it over a major city, thou.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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HardCore
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 19:13:14 [Permalink]
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UFO stories are always subjected to critical thinking by skeptics, and of course should be. Critical thinking requires that one has the facts straight in the first place, and then draws a logical conclusion from that knowledge, mixed with whatever other pertinent knowledge is available. The details I gave regarding my sighting have been somewhat altered by some people here. FOr example, I described it as glowing, which was subsequently changed to blinking so as to possibly match commercial aircraft. My story has been treated for the most part as single pieces of evidence rather than as a whole experience. If anyone cares to re-read it, the object seen was not a light in the sky, but a physical object that illuminated the area under it. It was at treetop height (50 ft.) and was also about as tall as the trees. It was viewed from about 200 yards. It hovered at 50 ft., rose to approx. 1000 ft., and took off very quickly from there. Call me a liar, or mentally impaired, but don't call that a commercial aircraft. I have also debunked many sightings. ALmost all have been found to have a mundane explanation. But not all. To my knowledge none have matched what we saw that night. I didn't think it was possible, but I saw it myself. No one has any reason to believe me on this, I could just be making it up, but I'm curious to know if anyone here could have such an experience (with other witnesses) any still deny it for lack of hard scientific test readings and proofs. Can we ever believe our eyes and ears? I apologize if I came off as rude to anyone (boo-hoo excepted).
Why is the Popemobile bulletproof? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 23:09:42 [Permalink]
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Did you then confirm, that a flight of a B-2 indeed, had done a flyover of your area?
Yes
Seems like it would have had to be pretty low, to notice the 'blinking out' of stars in a distinguishable triangular shape.
Very low. Your hand held out a the full extent of you arm would have just blocked it out.
Think the light level would be fairly high, down by the Civic Center, too, so only the brighter stars would be visable, unless you were up in the panhandle of GG park. Huh?
That was why I was standing there with my head thrown back, looking straight up. It was a startlingly clean night, with more stars (for what ever reason) than I have every seen here. And that would be Alamo Square park--I was right across the street from the Full Househouse.
It's called something like a "neutral buoyancy cargo carrier," it is supposedely being quietly tested, its huge, triangular, and moves rather slowly. Just a thought, doubt they would fly it over a major city, thou.
Well there are still Navy dirigible hangers down towards San Jose. This thing was doing a couple of hundred knots--slow for a jet.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2001 : 23:33:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well there are still Navy dirigible hangers down towards San Jose. This thing was doing a couple of hundred knots--slow for a jet.
Unless it's an A-6, but then you would definitely have heard that.
Hardcore:
Have you ever watched a night time take off of Hotair Balloons. They very much are upright as you describe. Also, the flame from the balloon causes almost the pyrimidal shape your describing at night. The red glow would be consistent with the flame and the other described colors would also be consistent with the illumination of the fabric. Also, you implied (if I've read correctly) that the object lifted straight up approximately 1000 feet and then began moving rapidly. This is also consistant with hotair balloons. As they rise high enough and are caught in the higher wind currents they move surprisingly fast. I was always amazed watching the balloons take off out of Gunbarrel, if you didn't watch carefully balloons would disappear rapidly (this was in broad daylight). At night your last glimpse of the ballon is as the flame becomes too far away to see with an occassional flare for heating the air (they fire almost constantly at night because the air is cooler).
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 12:32:13 [Permalink]
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The Hot Air balloon would match the rather sketchy "details" that Hardcore supplied--glow, shape, illumination of trees. It does beg the question of why anyone would fly a hot air balloon at 2 AM in a wooded area. Of course I don't actually know what the area is like. It may have been an isolated stand of pines that the balloonists (half in the bag?) found themselves about to smack into, which would explain the need to gain altitude quickly. If they turned the burners down once they reached a thousand feet, the light would have shrunk very quickly and then gone out.
This sudden change of the size of the light would give the impression to someone on the ground that it had sped into the distance. You see this effect all the time when you are sailing after dark. The Coast Guard Auxiliary will shine search lights on you, to check you out. When they switch the light off it decreases in size, giving the impression of rapid movement due to forced perspective.
Call me a liar, or mentally impaired,
No, no, not at all.
but don't call that a commercial aircraft.
The intensity of your experience has not been matched by the clarity of your prose. Our speculation was, perforce, all over the place--just not in alien worlds.
I have also debunked many sightings. ALmost all have been found to have a mundane explanation. But not all.
The ones that lack a mundane explanation, in my experience, lack any explanation at all. That is not to say that the actual explanation is other than mundane. Only that no explanation has been found.
It is a very long jump from "I don't know what that thing was" to a spaceship from another world. But it is a jump that you seem so intent on taking to the point that it angers you when we suggest otherwise.
It reminds me of the "crop circles" in England. No one knew who made them. In no time at all they were attributed to people from outer space. And they came up with loads of reasons why they were other-worldly. You could only see them well from the air, they were too complicated for people to do in one night, the crops were bent but they kept growing, there were even magnetic flux lines out of kilter.
But when the guys who made them said, "It was us. We made them with a ball of twine and a couple of sheets of plywood." The true believers would have none of it.
To my knowledge none have matched what we saw that night. I didn't think it was possible, but I saw it myself. No one has any reason to believe me on this, I could just be making it up, but I'm curious to know if anyone here could have such an experience (with other witnesses) any still deny it for lack of hard scientific test readings and proofs.
No one doubts that you saw it. The problem we have with your UFO is that you are leaving off the U part. You have identified it using a lack of information and an excess of imagination.
As unlikely as it is that anyone would fly a balloon at 2 AM we do know this.
1) There are such things as hot air balloons
2) There are such things as A-holes
3) A-holes have been known to fly balloons
4) On another tact we know that our military is working on all sorts of new amazing aircraft
5) We know that they like to test them at night to discourage snooping from the ground and from satellites.
We also know that we have never met any E.T. s, nor have we ever seen a machine that was constructed by anything other than a human or a robot under the control of humans.
Could you be the first human to see contact from another world?
I suppose.
Is it likely given what we already know?
No.
Can we ever believe our eyes and ears?
At 2 AM after a night of poker? I can't speak for you, but under those conditions my qualifications as an observer are suspect.
Anyway it isn't you eyes and ears that we are questioning. It is your use of logic in reaching a conclusion.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 12:32:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well there are still Navy dirigible hangers down towards San Jose. This thing was doing a couple of hundred knots--slow for a jet.
That is precisely what occured to me. *L* Should this 'cargo carrier' had been in your area, it would have been the perfect place to hangar it, somewhat quietly. Think NASA even has an office around there, too.
Hardcore-
Don't know what you saw, but it sure sounds extraordinary at the least. Can you recall any additional details about the object? Slater's point of there being no sonic boom, by the size of the thing you described and its speed, there would have had to be a hell of one, would infer it wasn't physical in nature. How would you reconcile that with your experience? Do accept that you saw something, for what that's worth, and am curious about it.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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HardCore
New Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2001 : 17:30:41 [Permalink]
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Well, I'm not sure what I can add. Hot air balloon is a very good guess from my description, but I ruled that out since I am familiar with them and have flown them. At that distance on a still night conversation in the gondola (or drunken singing) could have been heard, and the ignition of gas makes noise and a momentarily brighter glow. Occasional bursts of flame would be needed to maintain a steady hover height for several minutes. In case I wasn't clear, it was an object, not a light. The object glowed in three colors. One would expect a sonic boom from an object that is one place one instant and miles away the next. I have tried, but cannot find an explanation, because the objects behavior is to this day not even closely approximated by our aircraft, experimental or not. Since 1947, people in this country have blamed sightings that could otherwise not be explained on experimental military aircraft. However, to this day we still have no terrestrial craft that doesn't just hover, or run almost silently, or go very fast, but actually appears to defy gravity. This story is actually true, and believe it or not I am not a moron. From what I witnessed, the usual answers of airplanes, balloons, searchlights, etc. are preposterous. I honestly think that given this experience even the most sincere skeptic would reconsider the hard line and allow for the possibility of a technology that is beyond our present capabilities. So, do we believe our own eyes, so to speak, even if it goes against the tenets of our faith? Or do we say, "I saw it, but since I never saw it before, and no one has proven its existence to my satisfaction, it cannot exist." I'm really not out to convince anyone of anything. I don't have the tools to do so, and I don't care what anyone believes about anything (unless of course that belief infringes on my rights). I don't mind telling this story to anyone, and some folks say it just confirms what they already knew, others say there must be another explanation because of what they already know. I am skeptical by nature, and I'll believe it when I see it. Well, I saw it. So drum me out of the Skeptics if you must for I have committed the sin of changing a belief. Thanks to everyone who has tried to address the issue seriously rather than just throw rocks at the infidel. I still am curious if anyone else thinks it is possible to experience something that could change a long-held belief.
"Faith is when you believe something nobody in his right mind would believe." - Archie Bunker |
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